Two things about our quarterbacks, including one point of worry on Rex.

[Art]

My first post was a clear assessment of what I thought I was seeing on the field by the halftime mark. It was not an instigation of argument or backhanded comments.

You came here, said Rex had a stronger arm and his long throw looked like a javelin toss and I had the audacity to answer you, fully negating your javelin observation and getting you to admit the only validation you possibly have as to Rex having a stronger arm is for he and Beck to do something neither he or Beck would ever be asked to do on the field, or anywhere else, AND if they did, we'd never see. Are you sure I came here looking for an argument, or maybe I'm setting an example on this board when someone denies reality, it's ok to engage that, support your position and demand answer.

You've answered one part. Rex doesn't have a stronger arm from what any one has seen. Not the receivers, not the announcers, not the staff, not all of us on television. He does, you suppose, have a stronger arm on his knees. Great. I can not negate the possibility on his knees Grossman would throw it harder than Beck. We both likely agree on the whole of their actual mechanics and play, Beck's arm is better than Grossman's, if for no other reason than superior mechanics, I guess.

Yes, it may seem snide to you to read me lightly tease your position as to how Rex's arm strength is better than Beck's, but, imagine what reading the thought in the first place felt to the rest of us who have watched the two play and realize who's got a better arm only to see someone say, "Well, not if they play on their knees, not if." If you don't like being teased, try to avoid wild, loony hypothetical methods to come up with an answer it is likely even you don't actually believe.

You have yet to answer the second on the javelin observation, but, I understand little is left to be said on it, so that's not an issue.

For the record, the instigation of debate and vigorous conversation about one's position IS what ES IS supposed to be. Maybe you forgot, but, this would be an ideal thread for youngsters to read and see how this place should be.

[MartinC]

Beck's misfire on that slant was probably due to a bad grip on the football. It happens sometimes on those quick passes.

Nah, he just short armed that throw, Beck said as much himself in the post game interviews. Like you say it happens sometimes when you are trying to get the ball quickly.

[Newera]

Maybe not a first rounder but, we still get a young gun to groom at some point in next years draft. And it might even be a better thing to not have the first round expectations and pressure for a young QB. Even in your dream scenario, you know many Skins fans and members of this board will be oozing over trading up to get Luck. Even if we make the playoffs and Beck or Grossman have a decent year.

I've never been this clueless as to who the starting QB should be. And unusual is that I really don't have a dog in this fight. I'm not rooting for one over the other. And I pretty sure Shanahan is not as clueless as all of us who have seen decent preseason play from both QBs. He sees them in practices and I trust he will chose the right one. But, I can imagine if the starting QB has a bad day during the season, we may see the other shortly after.

I also think we might be making a lot of assumptions about Beck. Some people have mentioned that Beck is more of a game manager ie: Not going to win you games but, he is not going to lose them for you either. I don't necessarily buy that. To me, we haven't seen enough of Beck to know what kind of QB he is yet. I think we assume Beck is a game manager because we know Grossman is the generally the opposite. I know Beck has a live arm and I want to see more with the first teamers. That incompletion on the slant that "McNabbed" off the turf was concerning. But, he might have been hyped up and ultimatley only had the opportunity to throw three passes in the first half. We need to see more of Beck.

I hope it's Kellen Moore.

[Atlanta Skins Fan]

Beck throws with more spin, which causes his passes to have a flatter arc and travel faster to the receiver. Grossman throws with more arc (less spin), which allows him to throw over LBs on midrange passes and throw over DBs on long passes, while throwing a more catchable pass.

Wobble on deep passes = less spin, more arc, more deceleration as ball approaches receiver.

Long passes are easier to catch when thrown on an arc, because they allow the receiver time to adjust to the ball. (Moss TD against Ravens.) The ball actually slows down as it approaches the receiver, resulting in an "in the basket" catch, with the ball dropping vertically into the receiver's hands. Low-trajectory passes look pretty but are less likely to result in long completions. (Beck's deep miss and INT.)

Arm strength is a red herring, except when a QB cannot complete passes against NFL defenses. Speed of reads and throwing on rhythm to the first open read are far more important than arm strength.

Beck's throwing style makes him better on outs, especially deep outs. Grossman's style makes him better on midrange passes between the numbers and most long passes.

Grossman makes faster reads and is more willing to throw on rhythm to an open receiver with a defender in the area. He's exceptionally accurate and throws strikes. His mistakes come typically when he thinks his arm can beat a defender, or when he simply doesn't see a defender. In 2011 he has typically beaten the defender with his arm, or had the ball batted down (twice). His INT came when he didn't see the LB through traffic. (Replay it.)

Beck has best placement on short passes designed for YAC, notably screens and checkdowns to RBs. He is superb with those throws. Grossman hasn't thrown nearly as many, and those he's thrown have less average YAC.

Beck's greater mobility is offset by relatively poor pocket presence. He'll create as many sacks and bad plays as he will create gains due to his legs on broken plays. Fans will tend to misread the result by blaming the OL for bad protection, when Grossman and other top QBs will tend to beat the rush with good pocket presence (slides, eyes downfield) and quick reads and quick decisions.

Beck has a lot of tools, but the whole is less than the sum of the parts. He's got good legs, quick release, throws hard, throws accurately, is smart, demonstrates leadership and is coachable. Fans get excited by the tools and the "talent."

The four most essential qualities in an NFL QB are fast good reads, sliding in the pocket while keeping eyes downfield, throwing to the first open read on rhythm, and throwing strikes with accuracy and good arc when appropriate. Rex Grossman has all these things, and John Beck has none of these things. This is why Rex Grossman will be starting against the Giants.

[Oldfan]

Nah, he just short armed that throw, Beck said as much himself in the post game interviews. Like you say it happens sometimes when you are trying to get the ball quickly.

I heard the interview. I heard him say that was one he wanted back. I don't recall him offering a reason.

[Lavarleap56]

My first post was a clear assessment of what I thought I was seeing on the field by the halftime mark. It was not an instigation of argument or backhanded comments.

You came here, said Rex had a stronger arm and his long throw looked like a javelin toss and I had the audacity to answer you, fully negating your javelin observation and getting you to admit the only validation you possibly have as to Rex having a stronger arm is for he and Beck to do something neither he or Beck would ever be asked to do on the field, or anywhere else, AND if they did, we'd never see. Are you sure I came here looking for an argument, or maybe I'm setting an example on this board when someone denies reality, it's ok to engage that, support your position and demand answer.

You've answered one part. Rex doesn't have a stronger arm from what any one has seen. Not the receivers, not the announcers, not the staff, not all of us on television. He does, you suppose, have a stronger arm on his knees. Great. I can not negate the possibility on his knees Grossman would throw it harder than Beck. We both likely agree on the whole of their actual mechanics and play, Beck's arm is better than Grossman's, if for no other reason than superior mechanics, I guess.

Yes, it may seem snide to you to read me lightly tease your position as to how Rex's arm strength is better than Beck's, but, imagine what reading the thought in the first place felt to the rest of us who have watched the two play and realize who's got a better arm only to see someone say, "Well, not if they play on their knees, not if." If you don't like being teased, try to avoid wild, loony hypothetical methods to come up with an answer it is likely even you don't actually believe.

You have yet to answer the second on the javelin observation, but, I understand little is left to be said on it, so that's not an issue.

For the record, the instigation of debate and vigorous conversation about one's position IS what ES IS supposed to be. Maybe you forgot, but, this would be an ideal thread for youngsters to read and see how this place should be.

In regards to the javelin comment I said I might be off base and when I get to watch it again I will look so relax. You have been throwing shots/snide comments at certain posters followed by your from what I've seen. Instigating with a angle is alot different than facilitating a discussion about a topic .

Their was a time when I would have respected you telling me what this place is suppose to be about but you dropped the ball and left and this place continued on without you like many other things. You want to discuss lets discuss but I'm done with the snide banter.

As far as comments from WRs and coaches about Beck having a stronger arm then Rex.. Link?

[illone]

I hope it's Kellen Moore.

Not to derail, I think he's an interesting player, but he doesn't bring anything to the table that Beck or Grossman doesn't. His long passes ARE javelins, and even I can see that Beck's arm is bigger than his.

[Skinsinparadise]

3 of the main newspapers in town, WP (via J. Reid), the Examiner (via J Keim) and W. Times (via R. Campbell) are going with Beck as the starter. Should be interesting.

John Keim From W. Exaiminer

http://washingtonexaminer.com/blogs/nfl/2011/08/tale-tape-redskins-offense-1

8. I still think Beck will win the job; higher ceiling and hasn’t shown a penchant for costly mistakes. At least not yet. This season will be about making the occasional big play and allowing games to be won with defense and the ground game. Advantage: Beck. He’s shown in two games he can play the way they want.

Rich Campbell From W. Times

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2011/aug/26/redskins-ravens-film-review-offense/

I’m sticking with Beck as my prediction for opening day starter. I’d be moderately surprised if Grossman is the guy. To me, two elements give the tiebreaker to Beck: 1) his mobility/speed, and 2) his relative inexperience means there’s a steeper production curve as the season progresses and his experience builds

[Lavarleap56]

Beck throws with more spin, which causes his passes to have a flatter arc and travel faster to the receiver. Grossman throws with more arc (less spin), which allows him to throw over LBs on midrange passes and throw over DBs on long passes, while throwing a more catchable pass.

Wobble on deep passes = less spin, more arc, more deceleration as ball approaches receiver.

Long passes are easier to catch when thrown on an arc, because they allow the receiver time to adjust to the ball. (Moss TD against Ravens.) The ball actually slows down as it approaches the receiver, resulting in an "in the basket" catch, with the ball dropping vertically into the receiver's hands. Low-trajectory passes look pretty but are less likely to result in long completions. (Beck's deep miss and INT.)

Arm strength is a red herring, except when a QB cannot complete passes against NFL defenses. Speed of reads and throwing on rhythm to the first open read are far more important than arm strength.

Beck's throwing style makes him better on outs, especially deep outs. Grossman's style makes him better on midrange passes between the numbers and most long passes.

Grossman makes faster reads and is more willing to throw on rhythm to an open receiver with a defender in the area. He's exceptionally accurate and throws strikes. His mistakes come typically when he thinks his arm can beat a defender, or when he simply doesn't see a defender. In 2011 he has typically beaten the defender with his arm, or had the ball batted down (twice). His INT came when he didn't see the LB through traffic. (Replay it.)

Beck has best placement on short passes designed for YAC, notably screens and checkdowns to RBs. He is superb with those throws. Grossman hasn't thrown nearly as many, and those he's thrown have less average YAC.

Beck's greater mobility is offset by relatively poor pocket presence. He'll create as many sacks and bad plays as he will create gains due to his legs on broken plays. Fans will tend to misread the result by blaming the OL for bad protection, when Grossman and other top QBs will tend to beat the rush with good pocket presence (slides, eyes downfield) and quick reads and quick decisions.

Beck has a lot of tools, but the whole is less than the sum of the parts. He's got good legs, quick release, throws hard, throws accurately, is smart, demonstrates leadership and is coachable. Fans get excited by the tools and the "talent."

The four most essential qualities in an NFL QB are fast good reads, sliding in the pocket while keeping eyes downfield, throwing to the first open read on rhythm, and throwing strikes with accuracy and good arc when appropriate. Rex Grossman has all these things, and John Beck has none of these things. This is why Rex Grossman will be starting against the Giants.

I would tend to agree with the above. I do think we can win with both guys just in different ways.

[Chump Bailey]

This is why Rex Grossman will be starting against the Giants.

I believe that's going to be the case too.

[HigSkin]

Nah, he just short armed that throw, Beck said as much himself in the post game interviews. Like you say it happens sometimes when you are trying to get the ball quickly.

yea or when you're pressing....

[MartinC]

yea or when you pressing....

What did you see in the game which made you think Beck was pressing? While it's tough to see from the TV feed I don't recall any throws forced into coverage or him trying to make things happen that were not there. On the throw I was commenting on he made a good read but just made a poor throw. Happens to the best of them.

[Oldfan]

I would tend to agree with the above. I do think we can win with both guys just in different ways.

You quoted the whole thing. Do you agree with ASF's analysis of the QBs?

[skinfan2k]

Last year Kyle was adamant about Rex to start. But this year we always have heard that Kyle wanted Beck since his college years. which is it? Well, Grossman got the starts last year and they would have put Beck in last year to see what he had.

[Lavarleap56]

Since so many people like and respect Keim as do I.. I don't feel I have to continue to validate myself.

"NQS88: @john_keim @LL56xtremeskins knows what he's talking about...mostofthetime lol"

--http://twitter.com/NQS88/status/107098909238759424

"john_keim: @NQS88 @LL56xtremeskins no doubt about that."

--http://twitter.com/john_keim/status/107099259341516800

Oldfan.. I still think IMO Rex has a stronger arm but yes. All summer I was saying what asf just said. Proof here

"john_keim: @LL56xtremeskins and you were dead on about rex and hashmarks; remember u talking about that in offseason. seeing it a lot now."

--http://twitter.com/john_keim/status/107098469386293249

[WhoRUSupposed2Be]

I'm more impressed with Beck after the game. Questions about his arm being answered.

I still think Rex is the better choice to win now. Maybe it's his longer time in the system, maybe because he's been a starter before and Beck hasn't. He just seems to run the offense better, and carry the team better, to me.

I don't think Beck is getting any better physically as a QB than he already is, he's 30. Maybe if he learns the system better, learns how to make quicker reads and get the ball out of his hands faster, he could be our starter.

But while in Shanny I trust, to make the right decision, for now I'm still a member of the FIIGD fan club.

Everything you just wrote is what I've been implicating to alot of people on my end.

[Art]

In regards to the javelin comment I said I might be off base and when I get to watch it again I will look so relax. You have been throwing shots/snide comments at certain posters followed by your from what I've seen. Instigating with a angle is alot different than facilitating a discussion about a topic .

Their was a time when I would have respected you telling me what this place is suppose to be about but you dropped the ball and left and this place continued on without you like many other things. You want to discuss lets discuss but I'm done with the snide banter.

As far as comments from WRs and coaches about Beck having a stronger arm then Rex.. Link?

I've been back a couple weeks and have not had a repeat conversation or commentary about anyone about anything, thus, your feeling I've made shots/snide comments at certain posters followed by a smile is likely a little hypersensitive. A smile typically is utilized in writing on forums like this to reveal a light nature to the preceding comment, not additional sting. You will have to point out what you're referencing for me to better address, but, indeed I did leave for a while. Not sure I'd qualify it as dropping the ball. A whole lot was going on here, and this place would continue without me easily enough, where the other stuff may not have. But, having been away does not negate the fact this place is about vigorous, extreme debate. It was founded by Die Hard on the back of me coming on board with a hearty, "I love conflict," and thus it grew. Now, a secret about me, I never look at the poster of the post I'm reading until after I decide to reply. I find a post by someone I generally like could be shaded if I see the name first, whereas a post by a person I generally do not like can be similarly shaded. I typically read, think of how I'd like to reply, then see the name and decide how hard to go.

With you, I'm just ramping up. I gots more .

If you think you're done with snide banter, you're incorrect. Each time you mention Rex would be the No. 1 pick should the Lollipop guild start a league and require people to play from their knees, I'm going to tease you. However, you CAN be done with playful banter should you not say something as ludicrous. Then I'd be left to actually address someone else who said a silly thing. And, please, when I say that Beck is more accurate than Peyton Manning if you pour honey on both, make them spin 10 times in a circle before running from a bear and then throwing with their eyes closed, therefore showing real accuracy under pressure and feel and all, you should probably consider my destruction. Fortunately for you, I won't do that. You can grant me the same favor of avoiding goofy nonsense if you don't want to be ribbed.

When you say you will rewatch that pass, when might that be? I provided a direct link to it. The pass takes place on second 8 or so. It would take you 8 full seconds to watch it.

As to receiver comments, the last was Armstrong on Redskins.com in an interview and we discussed it a week or so ago with links to other team members who have been on the record with such things. There has yet to be anyone say or even hint at the opposite. I'm running off to Sam's, but if you can't find those conversations from about a week ago, let me know and I'll track down their link here.

---------- Post added August-27th-2011 at 03:33 PM ----------

Beck throws with more spin, which causes his passes to have a flatter arc and travel faster to the receiver. Grossman throws with more arc (less spin), which allows him to throw over LBs on midrange passes and throw over DBs on long passes, while throwing a more catchable pass.

Wobble on deep passes = less spin, more arc, more deceleration as ball approaches receiver.

Long passes are easier to catch when thrown on an arc, because they allow the receiver time to adjust to the ball. (Moss TD against Ravens.) The ball actually slows down as it approaches the receiver, resulting in an "in the basket" catch, with the ball dropping vertically into the receiver's hands. Low-trajectory passes look pretty but are less likely to result in long completions. (Beck's deep miss and INT.)

Arm strength is a red herring, except when a QB cannot complete passes against NFL defenses. Speed of reads and throwing on rhythm to the first open read are far more important than arm strength.

Beck's throwing style makes him better on outs, especially deep outs. Grossman's style makes him better on midrange passes between the numbers and most long passes.

Grossman makes faster reads and is more willing to throw on rhythm to an open receiver with a defender in the area. He's exceptionally accurate and throws strikes. His mistakes come typically when he thinks his arm can beat a defender, or when he simply doesn't see a defender. In 2011 he has typically beaten the defender with his arm, or had the ball batted down (twice). His INT came when he didn't see the LB through traffic. (Replay it.)

Beck has best placement on short passes designed for YAC, notably screens and checkdowns to RBs. He is superb with those throws. Grossman hasn't thrown nearly as many, and those he's thrown have less average YAC.

Beck's greater mobility is offset by relatively poor pocket presence. He'll create as many sacks and bad plays as he will create gains due to his legs on broken plays. Fans will tend to misread the result by blaming the OL for bad protection, when Grossman and other top QBs will tend to beat the rush with good pocket presence (slides, eyes downfield) and quick reads and quick decisions.

Beck has a lot of tools, but the whole is less than the sum of the parts. He's got good legs, quick release, throws hard, throws accurately, is smart, demonstrates leadership and is coachable. Fans get excited by the tools and the "talent."

The four most essential qualities in an NFL QB are fast good reads, sliding in the pocket while keeping eyes downfield, throwing to the first open read on rhythm, and throwing strikes with accuracy and good arc when appropriate. Rex Grossman has all these things, and John Beck has none of these things. This is why Rex Grossman will be starting against the Giants.

ASF,

Some of your analysis here is interesting and generally correct. We know Rex from the Spurrier days can lay a ball in between layers of the defense. We do see that from him here. Nice seam passes, good deep digs over the linebackers, in front of the safeties. It will be interesting to see if Beck can pull the string when he doesn't have a clear line off his hand to the receiver. Great QBs can fit those passes normal QBs can't. Grossman CAN do that. He's not a great QB, but he has some qualities which are difficult to find. Beck, in this area, is unknown. Patrick Ramsey had multiple problems. One, he couldn't anticipate, so he had to use his arm to force feed developed routes. Two, largely because he couldn't anticipate, he could not throw a ball over a short defender, to a receiver before the deep defender. Early in Campbell's career, in Tampa actually, I remember commenting on a play that showed great touch and the ability to feather a ball in. Interestingly he never showed much of that again.

Part, I think, of his problem is where he may have had the ability, the near constant change in what we were doing had to make him think a bit and be later on balls than we needed him to be. Beck really is unknown here. More unknown than whether he has deep accuracy, to me, is whether he has the ability to pull the string on his fast ball to show the arc and touch necessary to make the sort of plays required for an offense to be more than just ok or good. Grossman has that and it's one reason I like him for the job. Now, on faster reads, this is a serious question. Some of your check down worries on Beck are fast reads and taking a few yards to stay ahead of the chains. Rex often seems to shun the slip pass out of the backfield. We could have problems if Rex doesn't stay ahead of the chains, but we'll see that when we get to it.

It'll be interesting to see who gets the job and just how secure that job is with shaky play.

I'm solidly behind Grossman, but, I can see why Beck has some eyes.

Ultimately what we now know is both QBs can make the throws necessary to play NFL QB. We didn't know that about Beck. Now we do.

[darrelgreenie]

I love how you post in the declarative so much I'm gonna give it a try.

Beck throws with more spin, which causes his passes to have a flatter arc and travel faster to the receiver. Grossman throws with more arc (less spin), which allows him to throw over LBs on midrange passes and throw over DBs on long passes, while throwing a more catchable pass.

Beck can throw the ball with greater velocity then Rex.

The ability to throw the ball with velocity is a good trait.

But, it doesn't preclude Beck from being able to vary his velocity.

The notion that Beck throws the ball hard all the time is actually quite silly in regards to the scouting reports on him coming out of college.

Simply put Beck can throw the ball as soft as Rex when neccesary but its doubtful Rex can match Beck's velocity.

Long passes are easier to catch when thrown on an arc, because they allow the receiver time to adjust to the ball. (Moss TD against Ravens.)

Likewise with Becks throw to Armstrong.

Speed of reads and throwing on rhythm to the first open read are far more important than arm strength.

A good measure of reads and rhythm is efficiency and Beck is operating the offense with greater efficiency then Rex.

Beck has best placement on short passes designed for YAC, notably screens and checkdowns to RBs. He is superb with those throws. Grossman hasn't thrown nearly as many, and those he's thrown have less average YAC.

Oh, you mean the short passes that make up the majority of NFL passing offenses?

Beck's greater mobility is offset by relatively poor pocket presence.

Poor pocket presence? Especially in comparison to Rex propensity to throw off his back foot?

He'll create as many sacks and bad plays as he will create gains due to his legs on broken plays. Fans will tend to misread the result by blaming the OL for bad protection

Beck has been sacked ready? 1 more time then Rex this preseason.

And Beck's sacks were a result of OL getting beat, IIRC Shanahan praised Beck for not making a bad play worse when he took those sacks.

Beck has a lot of tools, but the whole is less than the sum of the parts. He's got good legs, quick release, throws hard, throws accurately, is smart, demonstrates leadership and is coachable. Fans get excited by the tools and the "talent."

LoL, the irony in this post is too much.

The four most essential qualities in an NFL QB are fast good reads, sliding in the pocket while keeping eyes downfield, throwing to the first open read on rhythm, and throwing strikes with accuracy and good arc when appropriate. Rex Grossman has all these things, and John Beck has none of these things.

If Rex did all of the above better then Beck wouldn't his preseason production reflect this superiority in some sizable way?

Surely if Rex has all those traits and Beck has none coupled with Rex's playing experience and scheme experience advantage Rex should be able to easily outperform someone like Beck that lacks the experience, scheme knowledge and 'essential' qualities you mention?

I don't disagree that Rex posses those traits to some measure but Beck is better in everything you mention + Beck is more mobile and can make plays with his feet and varying his release angles.

[HigSkin]

What did you see in the game which made you think Beck was pressing? While it's tough to see from the TV feed I don't recall any throws forced into coverage or him trying to make things happen that were not there. On the throw I was commenting on he made a good read but just made a poor throw. Happens to the best of them.

OldFan and I were going back and forth about my original post in this thread where I felt whichever QB starts the season probably won't finish the season. And, that would have a lot to do with pressing to keep the job.

[MartinC]

OldFan and I were going back and forth about my original post in this thread where I felt whichever QB starts the season probably won't finish the season. And, that would have a lot to do with pressing to keep the job.

I get that the potential is there for both Beck and Rex to press to try to win the job, but I've seen very little evidence of it from either guy. Both have played both well and within the scheme IMO.

[Lavarleap56]

I've been back a couple weeks and have not had a repeat conversation or commentary about anyone about anything, thus, your feeling I've made shots/snide comments at certain posters followed by a smile is likely a little hypersensitive. A smile typically is utilized in writing on forums like this to reveal a light nature to the preceding comment, not additional sting. You will have to point out what you're referencing for me to better address, but, indeed I did leave for a while. Not sure I'd qualify it as dropping the ball. A whole lot was going on here, and this place would continue without me easily enough, where the other stuff may not have. But, having been away does not negate the fact this place is about vigorous, extreme debate. It was founded by Die Hard on the back of me coming on board with a hearty, "I love conflict," and thus it grew. Now, a secret about me, I never look at the poster of the post I'm reading until after I decide to reply. I find a post by someone I generally like could be shaded if I see the name first, whereas a post by a person I generally do not like can be similarly shaded. I typically read, think of how I'd like to reply, then see the name and decide how hard to go.

With you, I'm just ramping up. I gots more .

If you think you're done with snide banter, you're incorrect. Each time you mention Rex would be the No. 1 pick should the Lollipop guild start a league and require people to play from their knees, I'm going to tease you. However, you CAN be done with playful banter should you not say something as ludicrous. Then I'd be left to actually address someone else who said a silly thing. And, please, when I say that Beck is more accurate than Peyton Manning if you pour honey on both, make them spin 10 times in a circle before running from a bear and then throwing with their eyes closed, therefore showing real accuracy under pressure and feel and all, you should probably consider my destruction. Fortunately for you, I won't do that. You can grant me the same favor of avoiding goofy nonsense if you don't want to be ribbed.

When you say you will rewatch that pass, when might that be? I provided a direct link to it. The pass takes place on second 8 or so. It would take you 8 full seconds to watch it.

As to receiver comments, the last was Armstrong on Redskins.com in an interview and we discussed it a week or so ago with links to other team members who have been on the record with such things. There has yet to be anyone say or even hint at the opposite. I'm running off to Sam's, but if you can't find those conversations from about a week ago, let me know and I'll track down their link here.

On my time I plan on watching the whole game again this evening. I wouldn't have made the comment unless something sparked it from the game but I have said it may not be that specific play in question. I know what the players say privately about each qb and anyone should know public comments will be politically correct. I know ES history art so no need for the lesson and Diehard is a Guy I respect. You can say what you want about the Smiley faces ect but I'm not the only person who has noticed the tone and backhand comments so its a trend.

You say this isnt personal but i leave it alone and you keep threatening " im not done with you" ect. This is a message board for people to have fun talking about a subject we all love not a ego contest :twocents: think you should relax a bit and add to the discussion not the white noise.

[MartinC]

Ultimately what we now know is both QBs can make the throws necessary to play NFL QB. We didn't know that about Beck. Now we do.

I think the above is important and being a bit lost in the back and forth on who gets the start. We have seen evidence that both QBs can operate this offense at a high level. If it was my choice I would start Beck but I am not worried if Rex starts either - from having a QB situation which was a national joke we now have pretty much a dead heat with two guys who have both made a strong case to start.

[RWJ]

Something that enters my mind, I don't think our 3rd QB who makes the roster is on our team yet. I get a feeling that there will be a QB who is let go from the cuts and we sign our 3rd QB from a round of cuts that are made.

[Lavarleap56]

I think the above is important and being a bit lost in the back and forth on who gets the start. We have seen evidence that both QBs can operate this offense at a high level. If it was my choice I would start Beck but I am not worried if Rex starts either - from having a QB situation which was a national joke we now have pretty much a dead heat with two guys who have both made a strong case to start.

You can honestly make a case for both guys.

[Skinsinparadise]

Good post by ASF, though I prefer Beck. I wonder about ASF's comments about Rex's pocket presence. I've never heard Rex complemented on that before, I recall pocket presence being more as a rip on him. I personally haven't studied Rex like mad but what makes me buy into his detractors in this issue specifically is that the dude statistically hasn't built a strong resume in terms of evading sacks and fumbles. Some of the fumbles I've seen, involved Rex being oblivious to pressure coming from the blind side and in turn he got the ball knocked out of his hand. Though granted it hasn't been an issue in the preseason. If he recall he fumbled 4 times last year in spot duty. Unless, ASF means staying tall in the pocket and not bucking to pressure, I'd agree with that.

Edit: I also recall by ASF's posted stats on Grossman that his QB rating sinks like a rock when his team is tied or behind. Usually that's when the other team is bringing on the pressure.