Two things about our quarterbacks, including one point of worry on Rex.

[Oldfan]

IMHO - the QB that comes off the bench is going to be in a better position than the one starting (i.e. pressure of retaining the starting job). Whoever begins the season is not likely the one that finishes it.

You could insert Beck to Grossman, Grossman to Beck if this scenario indeed plays out.

I think Mike Shanahan would tell you that if the guy who starts can't handle the pressure, then he isn't a starter. You, in effect, said that neither will handle the pressure. But both have performed well under the pressure of this competition.

[Art]

Your wrong Rex has a stronger arm but becks arm is pretty good. Beck has alot of zip short to medium but deep ball havnt seen it yet.

---------- Post added August-27th-2011 at 02:54 PM ----------

Exactly right! Its going to be fun to argue Rex vs Beck right now but ultimately the qb of this team will be chosen in 2012.

If I'm wrong, then so is Theisman, Sonny, Gruden, Jaws, the Indy Announcers, each Redskin receiver who ever mentions it with not one on the record saying anything different, your eyes, my eyes and every other eye, radar clocking speeds, the 60-yard in 3 second deep pass against the Ravens, every comparable throw from the inside to the outside between the two that we've all now seen, and, well, reality. Thus, not wrong. I think Rex's arm is fine, though I am concerned on the outs given how he's throwing so few and the one he did throw was an arc, not a dart, in comparison to Beck.

Now, I imagine everyone's universal commentary that Beck's arm looks great is because they have been told to expect it to look weak. So, I won't go so far as to say his arm is a Top 5 NFL arm, even if his clock speed coming out MAY mean just that. Whether Beck has deep touch and accuracy, indeed, remains to be seen. What doesn't is whether he has an NFL arm capable of making more throws than any other QB on our current roster. And that's not a slight on Rex's arm, which is an average arm for the league.

If either Rex or Beck play well this year, our QB for 2012 will be Rex or Beck. How well they play will determine what priority we place on a QB in 2012. If they suck, it'll be early and that player will play right away. If they are pretty good, that player may be in the teens or 20s of the first round and develop a year, maybe two. If they are FANTASTIC, which is the least likely thought, the QB may come in the sixth round and play in 2016. Maybe.

[HigSkin]

I think Mike Shanahan would tell you that if the guy who starts can't handle the pressure, then he isn't a starter. You, in effect, said that neither will handle the pressure. But both have performed well under the pressure of this competition.

I was surmising the 2 are so close in competition that both will be on a short leash.

[Art]

The one to armstrong was nice and it was accurate because Beck got it out in time from a three step drop. Getting the ball out early on the armstrong route allowed him to maintain his mechanics and deliver a accurate ball. Beck has deep ball accuracy issues when he doesn't get it out on time and has to use more "arm" and muscle it out there, that's when the true arm strength comes into question. On the Stallworth play from what I remember it looked like Beck was ready to throw a javelin and not a football. I will rewatch it again but he was definatly putting everything he had into that ball.

---------- Post added August-27th-2011 at 03:07 PM ----------

I wouldn't say Beck has a noodle arm at all.

Yes, rewatch it.

Beck's throwing motion remained distinct to Beck. The throw was a flick. And it went 60-yards in about 3 seconds of air time. Conversely Rex's TD went 35 yards in the air in about 2.8 seconds. That doesn't mean Rex was weak, as he put the amount of air under it he needed to, but, it does demonstrate just how quickly Beck's ball covered 60 yards and it didn't appear he had to heave it. In fact, it looked nothing like a javelin throw. He was rolling AGAINST his body. He quickly turned and with no run up, flung it 60. He turned, took one quarter yard hop to square his body, and threw. This wasn't a hail mary, give it all you've got throw where he runs forward and heaves it. This was a turn and toss. That made it more impressive honestly. Had he been moving right and his momentum going forward, he probably gets more distance on that ball. Here, he had to stop his momentum, square and throw with a defender inbound, removing the ability to make it a javelin toss.

He didn't appear to put hardly anything into it, which is mostly because his throwing motion is so compact, but, is supported by his body and not needing forward momentum to get it that far.

---------- Post added August-27th-2011 at 10:17 AM ----------

You can rewatch here.

http://www.extremeskins.com/showthread.php?352352-Game-vids

As for deep accuracy, the pass was intercepted, but, had Stallworth had a step, that's an ins stride catch 60-yards down the field. That pass may be the most soothing one he's thrown all preseason because it was far, seemingly without hard work, and on the money had a defender not been even more money

[tiger187126]

I wouldn't say Beck has a noodle arm at all.

that's all i heard from reporters and fans at the unofficial workouts and even some of this training camp was that he couldn't throw remotely deep without it looking like a wounded duck. there were a lot of people questioning if he had it in him to go deep at all.

the pass to fred davis and stallworth disproved that.

and btw in case you haven't given it a try, throwing a football 60 yards in the air is no easy feat and isn't done regularly in the nfl. YAC inflate it, but without looking it up i would say 90% of NFL throws travel less than 40 yards in the air.

[Oldfan]

I was surmising the 2 are so close in competition that both will be on a short leash.

Okay, we have a difference of opinion. I see the competition as close on production, but the decision on which to start won't be close, IMO. I think Beck has the clear edge because he has more talent than Rex and is a better fit for the scheme.

I think both can handle the pressure.

[HigSkin]

Okay, we have a difference of opinion. I see the competition as close on production, but the decision on which to start won't be close, IMO. I think Beck has the clear edge because he has more talent than Rex and is a better fit for the scheme.

I think both can handle the pressure.

Yes, I think we all know who you want to start and how you feel about Beck...

[RWJ]

The most important thing I think is the fact that Beck has wheels and good ones for a 30 yr old. In the case of Grossman, I think he is a pocket passer with the ability to move abit. I believe that Beck fits better in the Shanny system than Grossman does. Just my 2 cents.

[tiger187126]

The most important thing I think is the fact that Beck has wheels and good ones for a 30 yr old. In the case of Grossman, I think he is a pocket passer with the ability to move abit. I believe that Beck fits better in the Shanny system than Grossman does. Just my 2 cents.

let's not forget that grossman 30 is different than beck 30.

[RWJ]

let's not forget that grossman 30 is different than beck 30.

True and another good reason that Beck should start. He doesn't have the miles on him that Grossman does.

[tiger187126]

True and another good reason that Beck should start. He doesn't have the miles on him that Grossman does.

age is a misnomer on QBs. there is no magical age drop off like there is for running backs. an accurate, quick release guy can last in the league for a long time. someone said beck isn't going to be our QB for the next 10 years. so what? if he can be our QB for the next 5 years he'll be the longest tenured QB in quite some time.

grossman is who we thought he is. he knows the system (third year in it) and he'll make some good throws and he'll turn the ball over.

beck is younger, hungrier, and has a better upside. he's still learning the system and yet is maintaining a close race to a guy who knows it completely.

just a personal opinion here:

grossman's demeanor tells me he thinks this job should be given to him, no contest. he feels like he's the greatest thing since sliced bread.

beck's is one of a kid who's fighting uphill and doing all the extra stuff he can just to get a chance. he knew he was behind grossman in some areas and so he dedicated himself to becoming an absolute leader on this team when the season was in doubt. he got guys here, set up the workouts and put in the time to make himself better.

now when those guys stats so far are almost identical, i'll take beck. so what if we lose 1 more game than we would have with grossman, if that's what you're really interested in then you don't get rebuilding. i'd rather give an unknown a chance to shine, and if he burns out then sexy rexy will be right there to say i told you so.

[RWJ]

age is a misnomer on QBs. there is no magical age drop off like there is for running backs. an accurate, quick release guy can last in the league for a long time. someone said beck isn't going to be our QB for the next 10 years. so what? if he can be our QB for the next 5 years he'll be the longest tenured QB in quite some time.

grossman is who we thought he is. he knows the system (third year in it) and he'll make some good throws and he'll turn the ball over.

beck is younger, hungrier, and has a better upside. he's still learning the system and yet is maintaining a close race to a guy who knows it completely.

just a personal opinion here:

grossman's demeanor tells me he thinks this job should be given to him, no contest. he feels like he's the greatest thing since sliced bread.

beck's is one of a kid who's fighting uphill and doing all the extra stuff he can just to get a chance. he knew he was behind grossman in some areas and so he dedicated himself to becoming an absolute leader on this team when the season was in doubt. he got guys here, set up the workouts and put in the time to make himself better.

now when those guys stats so far are almost identical, i'll take beck. so what if we lose 1 more game than we would have with grossman, if that's what you're really interested in then you don't get rebuilding. i'd rather give an unknown a chance to shine, and if he burns out then sexy rexy will be right there to say i told you so.

Dude, I'm not against what your saying, I'm riding the Beck bandwagon! Read my post alittle closer. Again, Grossman has taken shots over the years and it's played a toll on his body, Beck hasn't. Capice?

[tiger187126]

Dude, I'm not against what your saying, I'm riding the Beck bandwagon! Read my post alittle closer. Again, Grossman has taken shots over the years and it's played a toll on his body, Beck hasn't. Capice?

i wasn't arguing with you. the quote function doesn't mean i disagree, just that what you said was a good jumping off point for my long diatribe

[RWJ]

i wasn't arguing with you. the quote function doesn't mean i disagree, just that what you said was a good jumping off point for my long diatribe

Cool....Gotcha.

[Oldfan]

Yes, I think we all know who you want to start and how you feel about Beck...

I doubt that "we all know" anything. I often read six or seven versions of my positions -- often in the same thread.

[rebornempowered]

After all the discussion about how far Beck threw that ball on the interception I went back and watched it a few times.

1. Beck has a strong arm. Seriously.

2. Stallworth clearly has forgotten how to play receiver. That was really, really bad.

[Art]

After all the discussion about how far Beck threw that ball on the interception I went back and watched it a few times.

1. Beck has a strong arm. Seriously.

2. Stallworth clearly has forgotten how to play receiver. That was really, really bad.

No one who watched it live should think anything else, yet, people here have said it looked like a punt.

I rewatch and actually time the throw and it went 60 yards in 3 seconds. Uh, NOT a punt. Clearly. The original observation is never retracted.

Yet, people have said it looked like a javelin toss. It clearly didn't, but, I rewatch and find a guy rolling agianst his body, squaring, then STANDING STOCK STILL flings it 60. It is broken down and provided. No retraction as yet.

I directly challenge people who still can't figure out the arm strength difference to watch Grossman's out and Beck's and they'll understand in two seconds. To date, not a single one has even tried.

We are probably very close to a point I get on message boards where I discontinue allowing people to hold an alternate reality and force upon them the necessity of understanding BASIC things before I'll believe anything else they write is marginally thoughtful. Now, why the media has gone out of it's way to suggest Beck has a weak arm may be as simple as preconception. They have gone out of their way to train people to expect something. Fortunately seeing is believing for 90 percent of us. We awoke from the media hypnosis to realize, "****, Beck has a hose." The remaining 10 percent will figure it out only if he continues playing, but, there is hope, even, for them. One can only deny one's eyes for so long. A mind's tricks dissipate immersed in shared experiences of seeing and believing.

[Lavarleap56]

If I'm wrong, then so is Theisman, Sonny, Gruden, Jaws, the Indy Announcers, each Redskin receiver who ever mentions it with not one on the record saying anything different, your eyes, my eyes and every other eye, radar clocking speeds, the 60-yard in 3 second deep pass against the Ravens, every comparable throw from the inside to the outside between the two that we've all now seen, and, well, reality. Thus, not wrong. I think Rex's arm is fine, though I am concerned on the outs given how he's throwing so few and the one he did throw was an arc, not a dart, in comparison to Beck.

Now, I imagine everyone's universal commentary that Beck's arm looks great is because they have been told to expect it to look weak. So, I won't go so far as to say his arm is a Top 5 NFL arm, even if his clock speed coming out MAY mean just that. Whether Beck has deep touch and accuracy, indeed, remains to be seen. What doesn't is whether he has an NFL arm capable of making more throws than any other QB on our current roster. And that's not a slight on Rex's arm, which is an average arm for the league.

If either Rex or Beck play well this year, our QB for 2012 will be Rex or Beck. How well they play will determine what priority we place on a QB in 2012. If they suck, it'll be early and that player will play right away. If they are pretty good, that player may be in the teens or 20s of the first round and develop a year, maybe two. If they are FANTASTIC, which is the least likely thought, the QB may come in the sixth round and play in 2016. Maybe.

I understand what everyone has said about Beck and Grossman very well. You really had to reach for those horrible Indy announcers didn't you? Beck is essentially the new model car that's fresh and exciting because its new to you while Rex is the late model that everyone already has the book on I get it. Facts are both of these guys have average to adequate arms for the NFL game. Rex and Beck have some similarities but different weaknesses. Rex Grossman is very accurate between the numbers but struggles from the numbers to the sideline and is accurate enough down the field. John Beck is pretty accurate overall short to intermediate but hasn't shown a consistent deep ball. Rex's issues to the sideline stem more from mechanics than arm strength as you claim.

Beck has enough arm to get the job down when he is able to accurately read the defense and get the ball out at the top of his drop on time. Push comes to shove and you take both of these qbs legs away and have them throw from the knees Rex would have the stronger arm. I think some people including yourself are lost in your own debate and need to decide what your arguing about, is it pure arm strength or a mechanically sound qb which then involves feet,hips,balance and ect. Im also sure with all your sources Sonny,Joe T, jaws ect you have been informed on why Kyle dialed up a few more deep plays for Beck against Baltimore so I don't have to write it out for you.

Odviously Rex or Beck will be on this team in 2012 and play with a rookie qb in the wings. Really it doesn't matter what kind of a year either have because one of the top rated qbs will be drafted as early as we can get them if it makes sense for the skins. Thinking Bruce/Mike wont draft a qb they want at the first oppurtunity is crazy really, like a father who walks out on his family and comes back years later expecting to still have relevance. Im sorry things just don't work that way if mike falls in love with a prospect ie Jay Cutler.

[HigSkin]

I doubt that "we all know" anything. I often read six or seven versions of my positions -- often in the same thread.

BTW - I probably should have used "press" to keep the starting job versus pressure of keeping the starting job. I believe that Grossman's inconsistencies come when he presses to make a play that's not there, i.e. INT to the LB last week. I think we saw a bit of Beck pressing when he thru the ball at the feet of an open Moss on that slant route (one example that comes to mind). Each could manifest in different ways but I'm no QB expert, it's just my opinion.

[Oldfan]

BTW - I probably should have used "press" to keep the starting job versus pressure of keeping the starting job. I believe that Grossman's inconsistencies come when he presses to make a play that's not there, i.e. INT to the LB last week. I think we saw a bit of Beck pressing when he thru the ball at the feet of an open Moss on that slant route (one example that comes to mind). Each could manifest in different ways but I'm no QB expert, it's just my opinion.

I prefer to avoid psychological explanations for what I see on the field when there are more mundane explanations available.

Rex said his view of the LB undercutting the route from his left was blocked. I take his word for it.

Beck's misfire on that slant was probably due to a bad grip on the football. It happens sometimes on those quick passes.

[Art]

LL,

Mechanics negating your ability to throw certain balls equates to arm strength. I imagine after a year or two in the league if his outside the hash mechanics were, literally, killing his ability to attack the outside, someone might have said something and even tried to fix it. I think it is an interesting, yet silly, notion to have both QBs throw from their knees to see which has a stronger arm. In fact, part of your arm strength comes from the motion you throw with. You generate power from your lower body and legs too. It would be like comparing my drive to John Daly's drive, if we were both buried to our waists in sand.

Grossman has a nice, fast release and throws a sound, solid, good enough ball. Beck has a quicker release, effortless, if strange on your eyes to see. The motion and complete nature of how they throw the football leads you to understand Beck's arm is a level above Rex. Rex has an average arm, we agree. Beck's is high average or perhaps above average. That doesn't mean he can play. Arm strength isn't a measure of taking away half of your strength and doing bicep curls. It's how you throw the ball as a player. Beck throws a stronger, better ball, to the point it's strikingly superior at times. That doesn't mean he can play. The only person lost in the debate appears to be you, who has decided the only way you can validate Rex has a stronger arm is to put both QBs on their knees and prove it. You take your hypothetical guess on that, and I'll take on the field obviousness. I recommend you join me in the debate I've been having. After all, theoretical physics can prove an elephant can hang off a cliff with his tail wrapped around a daisy. But use your eyes (yes, Costner comes in handy sometimes). You know the deal. Don't fight against it.

Two seconds after the Indy game I wrote on this board the first pass for Beck would be a deep ball against Baltimore and no later than the third play. It doesn't take sources to understand mindset and that was easy to understand would happen. You hinted Kyle had more comfort with Grossman in the offense and attacks more with him. Against Baltimore, the opposite appeared to be the case to such a degree Gruden kept talking about how much more confident the play calling is with Beck. Beck himself said Indy was a team that gave you shorter stuff, so he took it and Baltimore's a team you have to stretch so you go deep. It may also be that simple.

My belief is the team will be relatively average this year, exceeding initial expectations, and the team will seek an early QB to stamp on the franchise as our next hope.

But, crazy talk is thinking Beck or Grossman go out and throw for 4200 yards, 27 TDs and 12 or so INTs and they are bringing in a first rounder next year. If either of those guys goes from bottom tier to Top 10, they're your guy for three to five more after.

[darrelgreenie]

Beck is essentially the new model car that's fresh and exciting because its new to you while Rex is the late model that everyone already has the book on I get it. Facts are both of these guys have average to adequate arms for the NFL game.

Sure there are people that like Beck for that reason (new car scent).

But there are other people that are willing to take a hard look at Beck's skillset and not his circumstances.

Imo if anyone really takes the time to compare Beck and Rex as prospects it easy to see which one is the more talented QB.

What Mike/Kyle need to find out is wether Beck's superior talent is more valueable then experience.

BTW-Neither here nor there but reports out of BYU around draft time was that Beck could throw a football through the uprights from the 45 yard line.....on his knees.

[JerseyGator]

In terms of talent, I would take Heath S over Rex too (yuk yuk yuk).

[Lavarleap56]

LL,

Mechanics negating your ability to throw certain balls equates to arm strength. I imagine after a year or two in the league if his outside the hash mechanics were, literally, killing his ability to attack the outside, someone might have said something and even tried to fix it. I think it is an interesting, yet silly, notion to have both QBs throw from their knees to see which has a stronger arm. In fact, part of your arm strength comes from the motion you throw with. You generate power from your lower body and legs too. It would be like comparing my drive to John Daly's drive, if we were both buried to our waists in sand.

Grossman has a nice, fast release and throws a sound, solid, good enough ball. Beck has a quicker release, effortless, if strange on your eyes to see. The mooption and complete nature of how they throw the football leads you to understand Beck's arm is a level above Rex. Rex has an average arm, we agree. Beck's is high average or perhaps above average. That doesn't mean he can play. Arm strength isn't a measure of taking away half of your strength and doing bicep curls. It's how you throw the ball as a player. Beck throws a stronger, better ball, to the point it's strikingly superior at times. That doesn't mean he can play. The only person lost in the debate appears to be you, who has decided the only way you can validate Rex has a stronger arm is to put both QBs on their knees and prove it. You take your hypothetical guess on that, and I'll take on the field obviousness. I recommend you join me in the debate I've been having. After all, theoretical physics can prove an elephant can hang off a cliff with his tail wrapped around a daisy. But use your eyes (yes, Costner comes in handy sometimes). You know the deal. Don't fight against it.

Two seconds after the Indy game I wrote on this board the first pass for Beck would be a deep ball against Baltimore and no later than the third play. It doesn't take sources to understand mindset and that was easy to understand would happen. You hinted Kyle had more comfort with Grossman in the offense and attacks more with him. Against Baltimore, the opposite appeared to be the case to such a degree Gruden kept talking about how much more confident the play calling is with Beck. Beck himself said Indy was a team that gave you shorter stuff, so he took it and Baltimore's a team you have to stretch so you go deep. It may also be that simple.

My belief is the team will be relatively average this year, exceeding initial expectations, and

the team will seek an early QB to stamp on the franchise as our next hope.

But, crazy talk is thinking Beck or Grossman go out and throw for 4200 yards, 27 TDs and 12 or so INTs and they are bringing in a first rounder next year. If either of those guys goes from bottom tier to Top 10, they're your guy for three to five more after.

I agree that throwing from your knees is useless in determining overall qb throwing ability. However I didn't come up with the exercise or make it up out of thin air. Kyle Boller,Jamarcus Russell, Matt Stafford , Joe Flacco ect started the trend for qbs to do this at their pro days to show pure arm strength.

Kyle is comfortable in a sense with both qbs but has a greater comfort level with Rex. The Shanahans know what Rex brings them but odviously Beck is the question mark in live action. Pre season is to prepare and evaluate your team/players and Rex / Beck are taking a little different tests to get to the end result. I wouldn't misinterpret the differances in play calling as being more comfortable with Beck.

---------- Post added August-27th-2011 at 06:07 PM ----------

LL,

Mechanics negating your ability to throw certain balls equates to arm strength. I imagine after a year or two in the league if his outside the hash mechanics were, literally, killing his ability to attack the outside, someone might have said something and even tried to fix it. I think it is an interesting, yet silly, notion to have both QBs throw from their knees to see which has a stronger arm. In fact, part of your arm strength comes from the motion you throw with. You generate power from your lower body and legs too. It would be like comparing my drive to John Daly's drive, if we were both buried to our waists in sand.

Grossman has a nice, fast release and throws a sound, solid, good enough ball. Beck has a quicker release, effortless, if strange on your eyes to see. The mooption and complete nature of how they throw the football leads you to understand Beck's arm is a level above Rex. Rex has an average arm, we agree. Beck's is high average or perhaps above average. That doesn't mean he can play. Arm strength isn't a measure of taking away half of your strength and doing bicep curls. It's how you throw the ball as a player. Beck throws a stronger, better ball, to the point it's strikingly superior at times. That doesn't mean he can play. The only person lost in the debate appears to be you, who has decided the only way you can validate Rex has a stronger arm is to put both QBs on their knees and prove it. You take your hypothetical guess on that, and I'll take on the field obviousness. I recommend you join me in the debate I've been having. After all, theoretical physics can prove an elephant can hang off a cliff with his tail wrapped around a daisy. But use your eyes (yes, Costner comes in handy sometimes). You know the deal. Don't fight against it.

Two seconds after the Indy game I wrote on this board the first pass for Beck would be a deep ball against Baltimore and no later than the third play. It doesn't take sources to understand mindset and that was easy to understand would happen. You hinted Kyle had more comfort with Grossman in the offense and attacks more with him. Against Baltimore, the opposite appeared to be the case to such a degree Gruden kept talking about how much more confident the play calling is with Beck. Beck himself said Indy was a team that gave you shorter stuff, so he took it and Baltimore's a team you have to stretch so you go deep. It may also be that simple.

My belief is the team will be relatively average this year, exceeding initial expectations, and

the team will seek an early QB to stamp on the franchise as our next hope.

But, crazy talk is thinking Beck or Grossman go out and throw for 4200 yards, 27 TDs and 12 or so INTs and they are bringing in a first rounder next year. If either of those guys goes from bottom tier to Top 10, they're your guy for three to five more after.

I agree that throwing from your knees is useless in determining overall qb throwing ability. However I didn't come up with the exercise or make it up out of thin air. Kyle Boller,Jamarcus Russell, Matt Stafford , Joe Flacco ect started the trend for qbs to do this at their pro days to show pure arm strength.

Kyle is comfortable in a sense with both qbs but has a greater comfort level with Rex. The Shanahans know what Rex brings them but odviously Beck is the question mark in live action. Pre season is to prepare and evaluate your team/players and Rex / Beck are taking a little different tests to get to the end result. I wouldn't misinterpret the differances in play calling as being more comfortable with Beck.

To me it looks like you came back to instigate arguments and make backhander comments and that's a shame. I thought we were getting a veteran ES member to role model for the newer younger crowd but I guess not.

---------- Post added August-27th-2011 at 06:23 PM ----------

Sure there are people that like Beck for that reason (new car scent).

But there are other people that are willing to take a hard look at Beck's skillset and not his circumstances.

Imo if anyone really takes the time to compare Beck and Rex as prospects it easy to see which one is the more talented QB.

What Mike/Kyle need to find out is wether Beck's superior talent is more valueable then experience.

BTW-Neither here nor there but reports out of BYU around draft time was that Beck could throw a football through the uprights from the 45 yard line.....on his knees.

I actually agree with you 100%. I think Beck is definatly talented and maybe even more so than Rex overall. I didn't know they had Beck throw from his knees as well, what a novel concept lol thanks DG. Any info on Rex in terms of ball speed / knees ect? Think Boller or Flaccid threw it 60+ on their knees.

[Big Will]

But, crazy talk is thinking Beck or Grossman go out and throw for 4200 yards, 27 TDs and 12 or so INTs and they are bringing in a first rounder next year. If either of those guys goes from bottom tier to Top 10, they're your guy for three to five more after.

Maybe not a first rounder but, we still get a young gun to groom at some point in next years draft. And it might even be a better thing to not have the first round expectations and pressure for a young QB. Even in your dream scenario, you know many Skins fans and members of this board will be oozing over trading up to get Luck. Even if we make the playoffs and Beck or Grossman have a decent year.

I've never been this clueless as to who the starting QB should be. And unusual is that I really don't have a dog in this fight. I'm not rooting for one over the other. And I pretty sure Shanahan is not as clueless as all of us who have seen decent preseason play from both QBs. He sees them in practices and I trust he will chose the right one. But, I can imagine if the starting QB has a bad day during the season, we may see the other shortly after.

I also think we might be making a lot of assumptions about Beck. Some people have mentioned that Beck is more of a game manager ie: Not going to win you games but, he is not going to lose them for you either. I don't necessarily buy that. To me, we haven't seen enough of Beck to know what kind of QB he is yet. I think we assume Beck is a game manager because we know Grossman is the generally the opposite. I know Beck has a live arm and I want to see more with the first teamers. That incompletion on the slant that "McNabbed" off the turf was concerning. But, he might have been hyped up and ultimatley only had the opportunity to throw three passes in the first half. We need to see more of Beck.