Older generation: What happened to our quarterbacks?

[NewCliche21]

The trump card in any debate between me and a fan of any other team is Joe Gibbs. I don't care who the coach is, the money play is always a go route to St. Joe. Sure, a couple have won as many or even more championships than Gibbs, but they all did it with essentially the same quarterback. Coach is the only one to do it with three different quarterbacks and three different running backs.

Now I know that wear and tear got to Riggo, Timmy Smith cared way too much about Coca Cola, and that Byner left (not sure how he left, but he was gone).

What I don't know is what happened to Williams and Rypien. There's always the wikipedia versions, but I preferred hearing about WWII from my grandfather and his generation as opposed to what was in my textbooks.

Could you guys who were actually actively following the team back then elaborate on why we went from the greatest single-Super Bowl quarterback of all-time to nobody to Rypien to, um, Shuler? You just don't hear about that from other teams that win it all multiple times, and while it's a huge testament to Gibbs's talents as a coach, I'm not sure why it had to get to that point in the first place.

[thechalkoutlines]

Ohhh I was born a ramblin maaannn

[chipwhich]

The trump card in any debate between me and a fan of any other team is Joe Gibbs. I don't care who the coach is, the money play is always a go route to St. Joe. Sure, a couple have won as many or even more championships than Gibbs, but they all did it with essentially the same quarterback. Coach is the only one to do it with three different quarterbacks and three different running backs.

Now I know that wear and tear got to Riggo, Timmy Smith cared way too much about Coca Cola, and that Byner left (not sure how he left, but he was gone).

What I don't know is what happened to Williams and Rypien. There's always the wikipedia versions, but I preferred hearing about WWII from my grandfather and his generation as opposed to what was in my textbooks.

Could you guys who were actually actively following the team back then elaborate on why we went from the greatest single-Super Bowl quarterback of all-time to nobody to Rypien to, um, Shuler? You just don't hear about that from other teams that win it all multiple times, and while it's a huge testament to Gibbs's talents as a coach, I'm not sure why it had to get to that point in the first place.

Not sure what your question is???? Gibbs had an outstanding offensive line and quarterbacks who fit into the system.

There was a huge divide in Doug Williams and Jay Schroeder. There wasn't a universal agreement, just like Gibbs and Mark Brunell.

His offensive line, wide receivers, and running backs fit the bill during that timeframe. We didn't need Joe Montana.

Williams, Schroeder, Rippen, Theismann fit the bill. All because Gibbs had a system that worked at that time.

[TK]

What I don't know is what happened to Williams and Rypien. There's always the wikipedia versions, but I preferred hearing about WWII from my grandfather and his generation as opposed to what was in my textbooks.

[GhostofSparta]

Not sure what your question is????

I'm pretty sure his question is what the hell happened to our QB position in the span of a decade that lead us to where we are now? And that's a question that, being NC21's age, I'd love to hear an answer to as well.

Joe T's leg was giving a 2nd knee in the shinbone by LT. Back then, that was a career ender, there's no real question what happened there. We've all seen that video many times. But then you have Doug Williams and Timmy Smith giving the greatest SB performance of all time just disappearing from the face of the earth. Why was that 1 shining moment all they had with the team? Then after Williams, you have the '91 team just obliterating opponents left and right, and Rypien just making it look like child's play. Then, 2-3 years later we're trying to replace that position with guys like Shuler, Green, Johnson, George, and 37 other QBs in 15 years. I think I vaguely remember Ryp having shoulder issues, but was too young to actually know what they were or how they affected him.

Sure, this team didn't need a Montana, but if Marino had fallen 1 more spot in the draft and we got him instead of Green, how different would this franchise look right now? How dominant would Marino have been handing off to the Diesel and throwing to the Posse, the Smurfs, and the Fun Bunch while the Hogs made sure nobody got within 5 yards of him? Why, even when this team was at its peak in the 80's, could we never find a QB to dominate for more than 1-2 years at a time with all the weapons available to all comers?

[SkinsHokieFan]

Good grief, if Dan Marino was the QB of the 80s Redskins I honestly think we win 6 Superbowls from the time when he was drafted.

'84, '86, '87, '89, '91, '92

[NewCliche21]

Not sure what your question is???? Gibbs had an outstanding offensive line and quarterbacks who fit into the system.

There was a huge divide in Doug Williams and Jay Schroeder. There wasn't a universal agreement, just like Gibbs and Mark Brunell.

His offensive line, wide receivers, and running backs fit the bill during that timeframe. We didn't need Joe Montana.

Williams, Schroeder, Rippen, Theismann fit the bill. All because Gibbs had a system that worked at that time.

Okay, I know all of that. I'm saying, what happened that made us need to go from Williams to Rypien? And then Rypien to a huge bust of a draft pick?

Ramsey got traumatized by Spurrier's fun 'n fail offense. Gibbs came in, brought Brunell, that didn't work his first year, so he named Ramsey the starter to appease the fan base. Ramsey then got clotheslined halfway into the first game and Brunell took over. After 2006 was a lost cause, Campbell came in as he was traded up for in the 2005 draft. Campbell sucked for three years until being replaced by McNabb, who also sucks and is on his way out.

See how I can give a quick general history of the past nine years about quarterbacks who didn't matter? I'd like to hear about the two that did and the reasons for their departure.

And TK, who's that old guy in your pic?

---------- Post added June-4th-2011 at 02:42 AM ----------

I'm pretty sure his question is what the hell happened to our QB position in the span of a decade that lead us to where we are now? And that's a question that, being NC21's age, I'd love to hear an answer to as well.

Joe T's leg was giving a 2nd knee in the shinbone by LT. Back then, that was a career ender, there's no real question what happened there. We've all seen that video many times. But then you have Doug Williams and Timmy Smith giving the greatest SB performance of all time just disappearing from the face of the earth. Why was that 1 shining moment all they had with the team? Then after Williams, you have the '91 team just obliterating opponents left and right, and Rypien just making it look like child's play. Then, 2-3 years later we're trying to replace that position with guys like Shuler, Green, Johnson, George, and 37 other QBs in 15 years. I think I vaguely remember Ryp having shoulder issues, but was too young to actually know what they were or how they affected him.

Sure, this team didn't need a Montana, but if Marino had fallen 1 more spot in the draft and we got him instead of Green, how different would this franchise look right now? How dominant would Marino have been handing off to the Diesel and throwing to the Posse, the Smurfs, and the Fun Bunch while the Hogs made sure nobody got within 5 yards of him? Why, even when this team was at its peak in the 80's, could we never find a QB to dominate for more than 1-2 years at a time with all the weapons available to all comers?

Exactly!

[scruffylookin]

Doug Williams, despite Super Bowl 22, was simply not very good. That's why Rypien took over.

Ryp was a no name QB drafted in the mid to late rounds who the Skins stashed on "injured reserve" for two seasons. He was the latest project following on the heels of Bob Holly, Babe Laughenberg and Jay Schroeder (though Jay was our highest pick, 3rd rounder).

Ryp shined in the 88 preseason. Enough so that Gibbs felt comfortable enough to go with him at 2 and trade Jay, despite Ryp never playing a single real game.

Williams was the unquestioned starter going into 88 but and emergency apendectimy caused him to go out and enter Mark Rypien. Ryp led the NFL in passing after his first 4 starts. He was great. Then he got hurt late in his 4th game and Williams, now healed returned. Gibbs went back and fourth between the two the rest of the season but it was clear that an open competition for the job was going to happen in 89.

It never happened because Williams hurt his already troubling back while training in the offseason. Ryp got the job by default going into the 89 season. He was up and down. He'd put up good numbers but had a penchant to fumble when hit. After a disastrous game in LA against the Raiders when the Skins turned the ball over something like 7 times and fell to 4-5, Gibbs brought Williams off IR and inserted him back as starter.

The results were a disaster. Williams was awful against winless Dallas and we were held to 3 points. The next week our defense delivered a big 10-3 win in Philly. Ryp returned to the lineup the next week. He did not look good in a windy MNF game against the eventual AFC champs but Gibbs stuck with him and Ryp rewarded him by playing strong to finish the season. The one hiccup being the next to last game in Atlanta where Ryp started but got hurt. Williams came in (last time in his career) and threw a TD pass to Monk. But Ryp got cleared to return and Gibbs, smartly, put his clear starter back in and Ryp led the Skins back from 17 down to win 31-30.

That was the end of Williams. He was let go in the offseason and Jeff Rutledge was brought in as veteran back up.

As for why Ryp was replaced. He had a subpar 92 season and an awful 93 season. Norv was brought in and he wanted his guy. They toyed with the idea of trading for Jeff George or Scott Mitchell but then decided to use their pick on either Heath Shuler or Trent Dilfer.

Ryp was let go, along with a host of other Gibbs holdovers in the house cleaning that needed to happen after the clear decline of the team during the 92 and 93 seasons.

Hope that helps.

[MartinC]

Jay Schroeder was the guy who came in to replace Joey T when he went down in 85 and he played really well in 86 going to the Pro Bowl and leading us to the NFC Championship game where we got blasted by the Giants. Jay was a strong armed guy who throw a great fast ball but was not that accurate and had trouble making whole field reads. Gibbs did a great job adjusting his system from Joey T throwing anticipation timing passes to letting Jay throw it deep.

However Jay did show inconsistency even in 86 with 22 picks along with his 22 TDs. It was his job though entering 87.

In 87 Jay hurt his shoulder in the first game versus the Eagles if I recall. Williams came in and played well in a couple of games and then we had the strike and replacement games. After the strike even though Williams had played well Jay was healthy and started. He was very inconsistent and we won games ugly but because we won he stayed in. He also believed his own press cuttings and was an arrogant SOB who alienated a lot of the locker room. I can't recall exactly when but eventually Williams came in again and played just OK and Gibbs went back to Jay. The last game of the regular season Jay was terrible and was yanked for Williams who won the game. Williams was named starter going into the playoffs.

Fact is though Williams had one of the great games of all time when it really mattered but he was not a great QB. His stats as a Redskin are below average and he was inconsistent at best apart from that great game. He had lost all mobility, had a very good arm and was more accurate than Jay but blew hot and cold in my memory.

He started in 88 but played poorly not helped by Timmy Smith spending more time in night clubs than practice and partying his way out of the NFL and into a life prison sentence for drug trafficking and so there was no real running game to bail the QBs out. Ryp started a few games and played really well but also got hurt.

Into 89 Ryp was the starter. He was a good thrower deep and intermedate and had good accuracy and generally made good decisions. His arm was not as strong as Jay or Doug but it was strong enough. He was better at reading coverages but was a pure pocket passer - he made Ryan Mallet look like Mike Vick when he ran and he had some fumble issues early in his career.

What made Ryp a very good starter for about 4 years was he was playing behind one of the best lines in NFL history and had Monk, Clark and Sanders as his receivers. in 91 he was sacked 9 times in the whole regular season. Also again Gibbs adjusted the passing system to fit what Ryp did well and did not ask him to do anything he could not do.

In 93 of course Pettibon replaced Gibbs. The team was aging though and critically for me they changed the offensive system to go more short passing and that just did not suit Ryp. He was exposed and got hurt and there was a carousel at QB with Cary Conklin (who was the worst QB I have seen in a Redskins uniform) and Rich Gannon starting games. We were horrible and Pettibon was fired and Ryp went as part of the clear out.

Since then we have drafted poorly at the position but also not had the consistency of offensive system and team around to give a QB a real chance to be successful. We have also just not had the talent at QB to pull the rest with him - a couple of years of Brad Johnson in the late 90s and Mark Brunell In 2005 maybe apart.

I tend to agree with the view that fans over value the QB position. We won 3 Super Bowls with 3 very different QBs the best of whom IMO was Joey T (he was NFL MVP in 83) and no one is talking about JoeyT as a great QB. Williams was a journeyman who had a day in the sun and Ryp was a good QB on a great team. Put Ryp or Williams on one of the poor teams we have had in the 90's since and they would have been run out of town as failures as well IMO.

The modern NFL is more of a passing game than it was even back in the 80s so QB is more important - but so is pass protection and receiver who can separate and run good patterns. We need to find a QB still - but also a RT, C and RG and a true No.1 receiver.

[Nomadskin11]

Jay Schroeder was the guy who came in to replace Joey T...

This. I had the narration in my head while I read this.

Very simply, I remember feeling like year to year, it was about the Skins overall energy/being, not one player. Which is what Gibbs was so good at: he brought an energy to the table that made role players fit into a system that was "Redskin football." ... As a stark contrast to "Redskin football" adapting to a particularly coveted player.

[Destructis]

One thing to add is that when Gibbs retired, Ritchie Pettibone became the HC, who was the defensive coord at the time. So part of that downfall of the QB's was that they didn't have Gibbs calling plays for them.

[LaRonDontLikeUgly]

that

that

Back-to-back awesome posts and I hope others join in. Good thread idea... Fun to read for the youngins who chanted the song- but had little idea what was going on.

[Gibbs Hog Heaven]

Having just seen this thread, I have nothing to add to either posts 8 and 9; or Destructis' very pertinent point on Ryp and Coach' retiring.

As a related aside on Ryp, I've yet to see ANY QB throw a prettier, more accurate deep ball than the Canuck. They've been far better QB's of course, but when he aired it out to Monk, Clark or Sanders, it was a thing of aesthetic beauty.

Hail.

[Oldfan]

Back-to-back awesome posts and I hope others join in. Good thread idea... Fun to read for the youngins who chanted the song- but had little idea what was going on.

I agree that scruffy and Martin pretty much nailed it.

I would only add that, except for the top notch QB, the Redskins of the 80s were a Perfect Storm. We had Beathard's monster 1981 draft combined with Gibbs adding Nebraska's running scheme to Coryell's passing scheme. Defenses were overwhelmed.

[NewCliche21]

Thanks, guys! That was exactly what I was looking for.

[MartinC]

I think it's worth a mention as well that during that whole 80's period when we were a perennial playoff team the highest we drafted a QB was the 3rd round (Jay Schroeder). Ryp was a 6th rounder and Williams a free agent. Also we made only 3 first round picks during the whole decade.

[UK_HOG]

We also had a consistently awesome OL during this time. We did not have a single weakness on the offensive side of the game. No superstar primadonnas, just a team of really good players. It was almost impossible for opposition defensive co-ordinators to come up with a plan to stop us playing.

[TD_washingtonredskins]

Good grief, if Dan Marino was the QB of the 80s Redskins I honestly think we win 6 Superbowls from the time when he was drafted.

'84, '86, '87, '89, '91, '92

Interesting...and it's hard to refute any one of those years though the likelihood that we'd have won 6 Super Bowls is pretty low. I get your point though. The two years that stick out to me the most are 1984 (when we were upset at home in the playoffs) and 1986 (when we were probably the second-best team in the league). I loved our 1992 team also and a lot of our issues certainly stemmed from Rypien falling back down to earth and dealing with injuries.

Can you imagine if that had panned out and we had won 7 Super Bowls and played in another in a 10-year span?

You could also make the case that Gibbs might not have left and Marino could have continued to play well after 1992...though we'd probably have been a pretty bad, old team given the cap.

[wildbill1952]

We also had a consistently awesome OL during this time. We did not have a single weakness on the offensive side of the game. No superstar primadonnas, just a team of really good players. It was almost impossible for opposition defensive co-ordinators to come up with a plan to stop us playing.

Ding! Ding! Ding! We have a winner!

If anything, the offensive lines the Redskins produced during these years are the classic arguments for why a "primadonna" RB or QB is not the essence of a strong offense. Although Riggo and Byner are by far the best the Redskins had during those years, and Theismann arguably the best of the three Redskin SuperBowl QB's, none could be considered "great". The offensive line MADE the offense, not the QB or the RB's during that time. An outstanding offensive line with average to good QB's/RB's won the Redskins 3 Super Bowls, never a great QB/RB with an average offensive line.

What happened to the QB's and the winning ways of the Redskins? The offensive line got old and the Redskins failed to replace them with newer offensive linemen of the same talent level - plain and simple.

[jflow78]

As a related aside on Ryp, I've yet to see ANY QB throw a prettier, more accurate deep ball than the Canuck. They've been far better QB's of course, but when he aired it out to Monk, Clark or Sanders, it was a thing of aesthetic beauty.

Hail.

I honestly think that's why I'm underwhelmed by nearly every QB in the league, nothing was as perfect as Rypien's deep ball. I hate watching receivers slow down to catch a deep ball, and with Mark, they NEVER did. That Art Monk bomb at the end of the Raiders game in '92 to get into the playoffs is burned into my memory. (I also remember someone throwing a roll of toilet paper onto the field as he jumped into the end zone )

Rypien's the only one I remember enough to talk about. I thought the entire team played weaker in '92, but I also thought Rypien did fine in '93. What I DO remember is receivers constantly dropping short passes Rypien threw that year. I think he got a bad rap and it wasn't all his fault.

Honestly though, I think if we aren't able to actually get a QB to stay and play great here for 10 years or so, we might have some kind of curse on our hands.

[LadySkinsFan]

OLine, OLine, OLine. And we've been without a good one for years. And I'm not even talking great like the Hogs.

[Darth Tater]

The modern NFL is more of a passing game than it was even back in the 80s so QB is more important - but so is pass protection and receiver who can separate and run good patterns. We need to find a QB still - but also a RT, C and RG and a true No.1 receiver.

The Redskins in the 70s and 80s were more of the exception than the rule about needing a franchise QB to be a a team in the mix almost every year. The only big difference in QB quality now as opposed to the 80s and before, is that some mediocre to bad teams back then had franchise guys at the QB. Now? There are no consistently mediocre teams with a franchise guy. I think because of that 20 years of being in the mix without a long-term franchise guy, has caused most Redskins fans to underrate the importance of the QB, especially among us older fans.

[GSF]

Well, my memory for the details is not near as good as a few others in this thread(very impressive guys), but I do remember Rypien taking a lot of hits in the season after the superbowl, and then only lasting a few games until he got injured the year after that when Petibone took over.

Rypien threw a hell of a deep ball as others have mentioned, but he was about as mobile as the Statue of Liberty. They had some injuries and age on the oline in 92 and 93 and couldn't give him the time he had gotten in previous seasons, and he wasn't near as effective. You have to understand in 91 Rypien would just stand back there until Clark or Monk got open. He was only sacked something like 7 times that whole season, and he just never really faced any pressure. Rypien had a great arm and was accurate, but I don't think he would have had nearly the same success without that oline in front of him. Norv wound up cutting him as well as a lot of other Gibbs players when he took over before 94. I think Rypien wound up playing a few ok seasons for the Rams.

None of Gibbs' QBs were really that great imo. Williams had some great games, but he was inconsistent, and was getting old and kinda beat up by the time Gibbs got him. Joe T was Gibbs' best QB imo, and we all know how his career ended. Really and truely what made those teams so great was Gibbs' fantastic leadership and game-planning combined with those tremendous olines. Those olines had studs at every position most seasons. They made guys like Timmy smith look like HOFamers. If you ever watch footage from those superbowl teams, the olines just absolutely dominated. This has been the most frustrating thing about the 2000s Redskins for me. We've had some talented players here at the skill positions, but the oline has been neglected, especially for the last few years.

[Est.1974]

In 87 Jay hurt his shoulder in the first game versus the Eagles if I recall. Williams came in and played well in a couple of games and then we had the strike and replacement games. After the strike even though Williams had played well Jay was healthy and started.

Ah, we should never forget the efforts of Ed Rubbert & Tony Robinson. ( I did have to look those names up again ).

[MartinC]

Ah' date=' we should never forget the efforts of Ed Rubbert & Tony Robinson. ( I did have to look those names up again ).[/quote']

Very true. I fondly recall the last of the replacement games when we beat Dallas. Quite a few of the Dallas starters had crossed the picket line and we had no regular players as Gibbs had told them you went out together come back together. We whipped them anyway!