INN: Islamists Massacre Two Coptic Families in Egypt

[Destino]

This thread is comedy.

What actually happened: Christian families killed by Muslim extremist.

Reaction to this:

- The leftist press is lying to us about what is really going on over there. No attempt to tell us what the dirty leftist press is hiding from us.

- Christians kill people too!

How about we try something more adult? Something like... That's terrible! Extremist groups are taking advantage of the chaos and Egypt's native Christian population has been put at even greater risk. Hopefully the government that emerges from all this results in secular liberties that are strictly enforced so that this stuff can be put in the past and Egypt can take a large step forward. The Middle East could use a successful modern democracy and it would give hope to other groups, like say in Iran, that there is a better way and it can be achieved by a determined peaceful revolution.

[visionary]

If anything it shows that things haven't been nearly as stable and nice in Egypt as the government wants people to think.

If this thread is somehow supposed to prove that the people behind the protests are doing these things, then it failed.

Seems like with all the "chaos" and "instability" going on in Egypt right now, we would be hearing about a lot more of this stuff happening without the police on the streets to protect the minorities like they were before...right?

And yet the only things similar to this that we've seen since the protests started is by the people supporting and in at least some cases working for the government that is supposed to be keeping back the extremism and acts of violence.

[jpyaks3]

I don't know. It this were an isolated incident, you'd have a point. But to pretend the Copts haven't been singled out for some serious hate crimes is weak. Its been going on, its still going on. The peaceful demonstrations are great. The Copts not getting killed would be great too.

Egypt is front and center right now. This is Egypt, too.

Yes there are intercommunal problems in Egypt, specifically the institutional discrimination that the Coptic community has faced. But I think incidents like the terrorist attack on the Coptic Church New Years day end up showing the true colors of the situation. When something major happens like that attack the average citizen gets involved and the response was overwhelmingly and almost universally in support of the Coptic community. Hopefully some of the institutionalized discrimination can be dismantled but the average person on both sides are certainly not the problem. I think there isn't a whole lot you can really do about extremist elements/people killing other people, what should be focused on is the institutionalized problems which can be actually addressed not random violence.

---------- Post added February-7th-2011 at 12:00 AM ----------

This thread is comedy.

What actually happened: Christian families killed by Muslim extremist.

Reaction to this:

- The leftist press is lying to us about what is really going on over there. No attempt to tell us what the dirty leftist press is hiding from us.

- Christians kill people too!

How about we try something more adult? Something like... That's terrible! Extremist groups are taking advantage of the chaos and Egypt's native Christian population has been put at even greater risk. Hopefully the government that emerges from all this results in secular liberties that are strictly enforced so that this stuff can be put in the past and Egypt can take a large step forward. The Middle East could use a successful modern democracy and it would give hope to other groups, like say in Iran, that there is a better way and it can be achieved by a determined peaceful revolution.

Problem is no one took advantage of the chaos, instead people like the OP are trying to push along bull**** stories like this and blame a group of peaceful protesters and paint a region as something that can't be fixed.

[mardi gras skin]

Reaction to this:

- The leftist press is lying to us about what is really going on over there. No attempt to tell us what the dirty leftist press is hiding from us.

I don't think the press is lying about anything, but it does seem to me that the press likes to get behind a narrative. I've seen it steam roll the left and the right, so its not a leftist thing, just a weird phenomenon where the press locks on to a particular set of stories and seems to ignore a different set of stories. The result is a real unbalanced/warped reality. A Disneyfication of reality.

Right now, the Copt/Muslim narrative is about a growing harmony. Thats VERY real and I am so glad that's getting reported. But other stories get pushed aside. Stories about continued hate crimes against the Copts sound discordant. Its real too, but no one wants to hear about it.

And again, not a left/right thing. I think Obama recently got steam rolled in one of these surreal events...but then, I think he became President for the same reason.

[Halofan21]

Most Egyptians that I talked to believe the christmas day bombing was planned by the Mubrak govt. With thier actions during those protest I believe that isn't to far from the truth.

[Jumbo]

I usually find a fair amount of agreement with much of mardi gras posts (and disagree often enough, too), and this is another such occasion. Mostly, I applaud how little game-playing posters like mardi engage in, their sincerity and forum conduct, and their willingness to at least try to be open and apply critical thinking in discussion over lock-step side-taking or habitual reactions mined from a narrow vein of ingrained and reflexive thought.

[jpyaks3]

Most Egyptians that I talked to believe the christmas day bombing was planned by the Mubrak govt. With thier actions during those protest I believe that isn't to far from the truth.

Why would the government do that? I think there is some problems with the governments approach after the event (immediately blaming foreigners, etc.) but I don't see any motive behind bombing a church. All that did was make the population unified and that played an enormous role in the success of these protests. I don't think these protests would have been nearly as successful if the church bombing had not occurred.

[mardi gras skin]

Thanks Jumbo. The part I understood sounded very complimentary.

[Bang]

I don't know. It this were an isolated incident, you'd have a point. But to pretend the Copts haven't been singled out for some serious hate crimes is weak. Its been going on, its still going on. The peaceful demonstrations are great. The Copts not getting killed would be great too.

Egypt is front and center right now. This is Egypt, too.

Well, maybe I'm being shortsighted in my reply. You're right, I'm sure it's a problem, Oil and water are mixing over there. There's bound to be some crime and exploitation especially against the minority.

I guess what I mean to say is I hope that these sorts of (relatively) expected problems don't undermine an open view on the situation as a whole.

I see what's happening as a positive effect of what we've been trying to accomplish in the middle east, be it directly or indirectly.

~Bang

[Larry]

Right now, the Copt/Muslim narrative is about a growing harmony. Thats VERY real and I am so glad that's getting reported. But other stories get pushed aside. Stories about continued hate crimes against the Copts sound discordant. Its real too, but no one wants to hear about it.

But maybe that's because the Copt/Muslim cooperation is new.

Granted, I'm certainly not an Egypt expert, but the impression I get (and the prejudices I have) is that violence against non-Muslims has been going on for decades. (Probably centuries.) Whereas the two groups coming together to lend aid to each other is an almost-unheard-of event.

Can anybody but a loon claim that it's "media bias" if the media shows us a new and growing trend? Is it bias to show us the unprecedented, without also going out of their way to rub our noses in the fact that the entire world isn't perfect, yet?

Folks, a new government is springing up in the Mideast. It didn't take a war for it to happen, and it looks like there's elements of Freedom of Religion in it (so far). Is it bias to think that this is more newsworthy than the fact that last week, in BFE, some **** that's been going on for centuries, happened again?

[mardi gras skin]

Can anybody but a loon claim that it's "media bias" if the media shows us a new and growing trend? Is it bias to show us the unprecedented, without also going out of their way to rub our noses in the fact that the entire world isn't perfect, yet?

I don't know about the loon thing, but like I said, I don't think its media bias. Its just distorted. I can't trust the news to present an accurate description of accounts because they are drawn to unique stories. I guess that is media bias. They are biased toward the sensationalistic stories and are willing to allow the audience to come to the conclusion that these unique stories are an accurate representation of the whole society.

Maybe the news is just too clunky an instrument to expect it could present a more complex and true picture of events.

[DRSmith]

Does it matter what faith a murder or claims or why a person takes the life of another?

Only those with their own agendas make issues of a criminals fiath or lack there of.

Although it is interesting in a preverted way we will admit that the things we can take in can affect how one reacts.

Be it blaming Islam for violence or talk radio

[mardi gras skin]

Does it matter what faith a murder or claims or why a person takes the life of another?

Yeah, I think so. If one person kills a person over a personal disagreement, that issue very specific. If a group of people targets a person from another group, the murder extends past the individual and spreads fear to the entire community. That murder says, "you could be next."

[twa]

Does it matter what faith a murder or claims or why a person takes the life of another?

It does when the country in question is currently addressing needed reforms in govt and rights.

---------- Post added February-7th-2011 at 07:50 AM ----------

It does when the country in question is currently addressing needed reforms in govt and rights.

added

ignoring trends and destabilizing factors(in a already unstable area) can get ya in trouble.,while eyes are focus on the square many things are going on

http://www.ritholtz.com/blog/2011/02/american-warships-heading-to-egypt/

[Dan T.]

I don't think the press is lying about anything, but it does seem to me that the press likes to get behind a narrative. I've seen it steam roll the left and the right, so its not a leftist thing, just a weird phenomenon where the press locks on to a particular set of stories and seems to ignore a different set of stories. The result is a real unbalanced/warped reality. A Disneyfication of reality.

Right now, the Copt/Muslim narrative is about a growing harmony. Thats VERY real and I am so glad that's getting reported. But other stories get pushed aside. Stories about continued hate crimes against the Copts sound discordant. Its real too, but no one wants to hear about it.

And again, not a left/right thing. I think Obama recently got steam rolled in one of these surreal events...but then, I think he became President for the same reason.

I think that's a valid point, mardi gras. Not to sidetrack this thread, but another example of media sticking to a narrative is how Daniel Snyder has become the caricature of the impatient, bad guy sports owner out to milk the fans. .. the billionaire bully. To the media, whatever kernels of truth spawned that reputation is almost irrelevant nowbecause that archetype has been set in stone. All stories about him must fit into that narrative arc. That's what he's up against in his battle against the press.

[Destino]

Does it matter what faith a murder or claims or why a person takes the life of another?

Only those with their own agendas make issues of a criminals fiath or lack there of.

Although it is interesting in a preverted way we will admit that the things we can take in can affect how one reacts.

Be it blaming Islam for violence or talk radio

1 - Faith matters when it's the motive for murder. Not sure how one could even begin to argue otherwise in this situation. I'm not saying I blame Islam because that would be absurd, but I do think religion plays a major role in the violence currently gripping the middle east.

2 - I will absolutely blame the instigators for the results of their behavior. Be it talk radio or crazy religious loons. It's easier to divide and inflame than it is to bring together and heal. The people that draw their power by spreading rage and distrust around the world are a big part of the problem.

[DRSmith]

1 - Faith matters when it's the motive for murder. Not sure how one could even begin to argue otherwise in this situation. I'm not saying I blame Islam because that would be absurd, but I do think religion plays a major role in the violence currently gripping the middle east.

2 - I will absolutely blame the instigators for the results of their behavior. Be it talk radio or crazy religious loons. It's easier to divide and inflame than it is to bring together and heal. The people that draw their power by spreading rage and distrust around the world are a big part of the problem.

As long as one is consistent in the application of cuase and effect I have no problem but for the last few weeks I heard how the indivual is responsible not the enviroment around them.

The next question is if you people are okay with identifying the faith of the person and say it is a factor can the same be done with those who kill abortion doctors and blow up their facilities and lie and who claim the Christian faith?

[twa]

As long as one is consistent in the application of cuase and effect I have no problem but for the last few weeks I heard how the indivual is responsible not the enviroment around them.

The next question is if you people are okay with identifying the faith of the person and say it is a factor can the same be done with those who kill abortion doctors and blow up their facilities and lie and who claim the Christian faith?

I'm perfectly fine with being identified as a potential threat if I espouse violence or am a member of a body that does.(and likely am tracked ,despite holding that killing abortion providers is wrong)

The liberals squishy linkage of what it calls violent rhetoric in certain cases (such as the Arizona shooting) is amusing....Environment

Both can be culpable...and I like profiling

[Riggo-toni]

But maybe that's because the Copt/Muslim cooperation is new.

Granted, I'm certainly not an Egypt expert, but the impression I get (and the prejudices I have) is that violence against non-Muslims has been going on for decades. (Probably centuries.) Whereas the two groups coming together to lend aid to each other is an almost-unheard-of event.

I already posted this in another thread, but in case you missed it:

Coptic Christians make up about 10% of Egypt's current population. In the early years of Egypt's independence from the decaying Ottoman Empire, they were extraordinarily successful. Their downward spiral began when Nasser seized power. Although Nasser was tolerant of their religious practices (in the 50s and 60s the emphasis was on Arab nationalism, not Islamicism), Coptics at the time of his coup owned about half of the nation's wealth, much of which the gov't seized and redistributed under its socialist policies.

Things got much worse when Sadat took power. As Muslim fundamentalism grew, Copts came under attack from extremists. Sadat ignored pleas for protection, and would later exile Pope Shenouda III to a monestary and arrest a number of Coptic bishops and priests who protested against his failure to protect them.

In '85, Mubarak allowed the Pope to return. Though Mubarak's rule over Copts was still repressive, his determination to clamp down on Muslim extremists earned him a degree of loyalty. As bad as Mubarak might be, it seemed better to give up some freedom in exchange for security. All that has changed over the last year. In the wake of renewed attacks, Copts no longer seem to view Mubarak as a necessary evil.

[Spec138]

1 - Faith matters when it's the motive for murder. Not sure how one could even begin to argue otherwise in this situation. I'm not saying I blame Islam because that would be absurd, but I do think religion plays a major role in the violence currently gripping the middle east.

If faith is the reason, why not blame Islam? I know not all Muslims are terrorists, but it's apparent that Islam is really good at motivating people to kill. IMO we should be able to speak up and say that these kind of things aren't acceptable in a modern society; Islam needs to change something.

I'm not talking about race and Arabs here, just this acceptance of a faith that has had very violent trends lately. Christianity has had to reconcile it's teachings with secular ethics throughout history and I really hope Islam can do the same.

[G.A.C.O.L.B.]

I'm not talking about race and Arabs here, just this acceptance of a faith that has had very violent trends lately. Christianity has had to reconcile it's teachings with secular ethics throughout history and I really hope Islam can do the same.

I think that's why Egypt is so important. To have the largest Muslim/Arab nation in the Middle East become a modern, secular society would be a game changer. Something for other peoples and nations in the region to emulate. It's what some envisioned Iraq to be when we invaded and ousted Sadaam (I'm not getting into that disaster) but this is happening naturally.

That's just my opinion though. I was big on the Green Revolution in Iran (and ultimately disappointed) and I thought that would be the game changer. But this has even bigger potential as it's a Sunni country.

[Larry]

I think that's why Egypt is so important. To have the largest Muslim/Arab nation in the Middle East become a modern, secular society would be a game changer. Something for other peoples and nations in the region to emulate.

Especially if they can become a prosperous, modern, secular society.

It we could achieve that, for a Trillion dollars, it would be the best money we've spent since the Louisiana Purchase.

[twa]

It is not for us to achieve,though we can encourage it

[DRSmith]

I think that's why Egypt is so important. To have the largest Muslim/Arab nation in the Middle East become a modern, secular society would be a game changer. Something for other peoples and nations in the region to emulate. It's what some envisioned Iraq to be when we invaded and ousted Sadaam (I'm not getting into that disaster) but this is happening naturally.

That's just my opinion though. I was big on the Green Revolution in Iran (and ultimately disappointed) and I thought that would be the game changer. But this has even bigger potential as it's a Sunni country.

Turkey is trying to become more secular but all nations face struggles as they try to change the US is not different, ending slavery, getting civil rights both came with battles look at things like ending DADT or gay marriage or even health care all these things are coming with huge battles inside the country and people protesting change.

[Bang]

It is not for us to achieve,though we can encourage it

good point, and that is how I see a lot of this in Egypt and in America.

I get a little frustrated when peole talk in terms of what we should allow or what we want, and the fact is this is about what THEY want, and our attitude to the opposite is part and parcel why they need to have these revolts.

I am concerned about radicals taking over, but we need to step lightly.

I see a lot of this,, the Iranian revolt, tunisia, egypt, and all of the other ripples around the region as an indication that what we went to war for could work, and that what we're seeing is the fruition of what was envisioned when we went off "nation building".

I hope it works.

~Bang