SackMachine Posted May 8, 2011 Share Posted May 8, 2011 http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20110508/ap_on_re_mi_ea/ml_egypt_sectarian_clashes Tensions have been building for the past year as Salafis protested the alleged abduction by the Coptic Church of a priest's wife' date=' Camilla Shehata. The Salafis claim she converted to Islam to escape an unhappy marriage — a phenomenon they maintain is common. [/quote']On Saturday just before the violence erupted in Imbaba' date=' Shehata appeared with her husband and child on a Christian TV station broadcast from outside of Egypt and asserted that she was still a Christian and had never converted."Let the protesters leave the Church alone and turn their attention to Egypt's future," she said from an undisclosed location. [/quote'] Then right after The bloodshed began Saturday around sundown when word spread around the neighborhood that a Christian woman who married a Muslim had been abducted and was being kept in the Virgin Mary Church against her will.The report' date=' which was never confirmed by local religious figures, sent a large mob of Muslims toward the church. Christians created a human barricade around the building and clashes erupted. Gunfire sounded across the neighborhood, and witnesses said people on rooftops nearby were firing into the crowd. [/quote'] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DRSmith Posted May 8, 2011 Share Posted May 8, 2011 If someone kidnaps you and threatens your family in order to get you to do X then you are being forced to do X. It is that simple. NO you still chose to do x. People can threaten you but you still chose to act, the question is which has a greater pull over you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Destino Posted May 8, 2011 Share Posted May 8, 2011 NO you still chose to do x.People can threaten you but you still chose to act, the question is which has a greater pull over you. That's ridiculous. Do you apply this ridiculous standard to rape cases as well? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hubbs Posted May 8, 2011 Share Posted May 8, 2011 If you agree to convert to save you life you are still agreeing, no one can force a person to convert to another religion.And in Christianity disowning your faith is pretty bad ---------- Post added May-8th-2011 at 02:42 PM ---------- So she was not forced she chose to say it This is the most ridiculous post I've read here in a while. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DRSmith Posted May 9, 2011 Share Posted May 9, 2011 That's ridiculous. Do you apply this ridiculous standard to rape cases as well? History is full of examples of people who lost their lives or watched loved ones die rather than deny their faith. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Destino Posted May 9, 2011 Share Posted May 9, 2011 History is full of examples of people who lost their lives or watched loved ones die rather than deny their faith. 1 - Answer the question. 2 - Are you arguing that refusing to make a martyr of herself indicates that she was not forced. Martyr or willingly are the only options in your mind? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ancalagon the Black Posted May 9, 2011 Share Posted May 9, 2011 NO you still chose to do x.People can threaten you but you still chose to act, the question is which has a greater pull over you. You appear to be using the most trivial and meaningless definition of "force" anyone has ever used. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DRSmith Posted May 9, 2011 Share Posted May 9, 2011 If I tell you that I will kill someone you love unless you kill a hundred people, you are given a choice Everything in life is a choice the bible is full of examples of different ways one is tempted into denying their faith. Some are subltle and some are straight out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mardi gras skin Posted May 9, 2011 Share Posted May 9, 2011 Smith, I'm making some assumptions about your position that you could clear up for me if you would answer these two questions: Do you think this girl has become apostate because she renounced her faith under duress? If you were in her position, would it be the more honorable choice for you to renounce your faith or to let them kill your family? And I am asking this about you and your family because I want to make sure that the theoretical and practical responses align so if you could answer the question asked that would be most helpful. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thiebear Posted May 9, 2011 Share Posted May 9, 2011 I'd say/do A LOT to save my family. it's easier to be heroic when the consequences affect only yourself. The crux of this is your belief and my belief stem from exactly the same thing and end up in the same location with a slightly different paths? Thats a death sentence? Should be a Tuesday morning discussion over breakfast tea/chai. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NavyDave Posted May 9, 2011 Share Posted May 9, 2011 lunacy. jesus not only taught his followers to kill in his name, but i'm pretty sure he wacked a few degenerates who got out of line, too. Really? Embracing Jesus is the same as the Religion of peace in radical parts of the middle east where life is a blast, or the bomb in some cases? So when the Godless and the anti ham samich demographic use the WWJD what would Jesus do in the 21st century question, the answer would include, Stoning, beheading, marrying off preteen daughters, murdering those who do not convert and suicide bombing the innocents? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpyaks3 Posted May 9, 2011 Share Posted May 9, 2011 So have the government publicly state that their coptic population is equal in all ways and free to practice their religion without restrictions *and* announce that these hardliners are criminals that will now be placed under investigation for their role in recent attacks. Raid their compounds and arrest any and all leaders found to have been involved in any of these attacks. Also investigate the claims the the Egyptian military is complicit in these attacks as has been the claim of Coptic's for quite some time now. Anything short of that is accommodating. In the US we would not tolerate the KKK launching attacks on mosques only to have a few people actually involved in the attacks arrested... meanwhile their leadership goes untouched and reports of police officers conspiring with them gets ignored or brushed off without a serious investigation. We've been through that here and we know it today as "institutionalized racism". It's when the government did the bare minimum in order to pretend it was doing something. ---------- Post added May-8th-2011 at 06:49 PM ---------- Is this post a joke? Please tell me it's a joke. The situation is a hell of a lot more complicated than that. A lot of these attacks are coming in cycles of protests, Copts protest and Salafi's counterprotest and it gets violent between the two sides. We saw this in November with the police and the Copts over building permits and since the revolution there have been a few other examples. There isn't compounds and there really isn't anything to raid, its intercommunal violence stemming from protests and counter protests clashing. The military right now has not been stepping in forcefully enough in my opinion to protect the Coptic community and to prevent these clashes of communities in protests. But they are in a very difficult position, this violence is arising from Coptic protests for more rights and some anti-Salafi protests too so they don't want to just squash protests and demonstrations but these demonstrations are where these clashes are happening. This is a case where community leaders on both sides need to try and step in and calm down their respective communities, hopefully once the new government and Constitution are formed Coptics will be more protected but until then its a difficult situation for everyone involved. But there has been significant pushback against Salafi ideology. Upper Egypt is a different story, there are blood feuds that have nothing to do with religion and are just familial things so I can't really comment on reports from upper Egypt, but in the cities this is clear inter communal violence that can't be solved simply by raiding compounds. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DRSmith Posted May 9, 2011 Share Posted May 9, 2011 Smith, I'm making some assumptions about your position that you could clear up for me if you would answer these two questions:Do you think this girl has become apostate because she renounced her faith under duress? If you were in her position, would it be the more honorable choice for you to renounce your faith or to let them kill your family? And I am asking this about you and your family because I want to make sure that the theoretical and practical responses align so if you could answer the question asked that would be most helpful. My view of her on this issue is a non starter as we only see one thing here, we do not know if this was lie, a temporary fear or if she lacked faith all together. If it was me then I would hope my faith is strong enough to with stand this. At the end of the day what is the purpose of having faith if when under pressure you cast it aside to please others. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mardi gras skin Posted May 9, 2011 Share Posted May 9, 2011 If it was me then I would hope my faith is strong enough to with stand this. So then, renouncing your faith in order to save the lives of your children is an act of disloyalty to God. That is an interesting point of view. I would see it something like this. If, for some some strange reason, I were told to renounce my marriage vows or my children would be killed, which choice would be the faithful one? Would holding my vows be the faithful act of love or would protecting our children be the act of faithfulness? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DRSmith Posted May 9, 2011 Share Posted May 9, 2011 There is a difference between a marriage mate and God. One actually has the ability to make right the wrongs and restore the dead back to life, and that is where faith comes in, do you believe God will actually reward the faithful or not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Destino Posted May 9, 2011 Share Posted May 9, 2011 The situation is a hell of a lot more complicated than that. A lot of these attacks are coming in cycles of protests, Copts protest and Salafi's counterprotest and it gets violent between the two sides. We saw this in November with the police and the Copts over building permits and since the revolution there have been a few other examples. There isn't compounds and there really isn't anything to raid, its intercommunal violence stemming from protests and counter protests clashing. The military right now has not been stepping in forcefully enough in my opinion to protect the Coptic community and to prevent these clashes of communities in protests. But they are in a very difficult position, this violence is arising from Coptic protests for more rights and some anti-Salafi protests too so they don't want to just squash protests and demonstrations but these demonstrations are where these clashes are happening. This is a case where community leaders on both sides need to try and step in and calm down their respective communities, hopefully once the new government and Constitution are formed Coptics will be more protected but until then its a difficult situation for everyone involved. But there has been significant pushback against Salafi ideology. It seems like you want to complicate the simple. Coptic Christian are demanding equal treatment under the law. Basic civil rights. There is no justice so long as inequality exists. The belief, and a state supporting that belief, that one group is less valuable or worthy than another always without fail leads to atrocities committed against the lesser group. We've seen it throughout history and it remains true today. In the US we tell ourselves we've moved beyond such problems but we have not. The US is currently seeing challenges to charging minors with prostitution. This has gone on because prostitutes are not seen as equal people by much of society. They are whores. Anything less than equal status will lead to continued bloodshed, abuse, and injustice. The Coptic Christians know this and that is why they are out in the streets protesting. They do not need to be reigned in by their leaders because what they are doing has to be done and those seeking to use violence to silence them and seeking to make a theocracy that views them as a tolerated evil have to be stopped. Failing to do so will lead to tremendous pain with no chance of justice for those people. Inequality always leads to horror. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thiebear Posted May 10, 2011 Share Posted May 10, 2011 So if you renounce your loyalty to GOD to a godless heathen to save your family you have failed? Your a tough group. I would think it would only matter what you hold in your heart for God himself that would matter between the two of you. Never renounce your love for God to God, but tell a punk anything you need to get back home and hug that beautiful daughter. I'm a godless heathen, but i've read pieces/parts Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mardi gras skin Posted May 10, 2011 Share Posted May 10, 2011 There is a difference between a marriage mate and God. Faithfulness is faithfulness. I know my wife would consider it an act of faithfulness to her and to our family to save our children. And I know God loves my children at least as much as my wife. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hubbs Posted May 10, 2011 Share Posted May 10, 2011 So, here's yet another wrinkle in the ongoing game of determining just how DR has come to his conclusion: It appears that he's of the belief that only the spoken word matters to God. In other words, despite the fact that most of your friends and family will know when you're being sarcastic, hyperbolic, or outright lying - especially when they know you're in a situation that would cause you to lie for some sort of greater good - an omniscient, omnipotent, omnipresent God, who knows your thoughts and is in control of your very soul, is apparently incapable of figuring out whether or not you mean what you say when someone is pointing a gun at your child's head. I know, I know. DR is going to come in and say that there are examples in the Bible of those who would rather die than give into demands of saying something out loud that they didn't actually mean, and those people are exalted. In my opinion, those are classic stories of defiance that arise when a certain group is being oppressed by the powers that be of any given era. In this case, the powers were those of Rome. Stories of defiance are very inspirational to those who have to live in underground tunnels. But that doesn't mean that I think that the spoken word trumps all. In fact, one of the things I appreciate most about Christianity is the frequent teaching that what matters most is what lies in your heart. And I'll never believe that an all-knowing God would find you at fault for uttering a sentence you absolutely don't believe in order to save your kids. If it's not true, then it's not true. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twa Posted May 10, 2011 Share Posted May 10, 2011 If giving your life to save/protect others is respected/worthy,how much mores so should be risking your soul sir? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DRSmith Posted May 10, 2011 Share Posted May 10, 2011 Faithfulness is faithfulness. I know my wife would consider it an act of faithfulness to her and to our family to save our children. And I know God loves my children at least as much as my wife. Well I tell you what you show me scriptures that state it is okay to deny your faith and love, and claim love for another as a means of saving your life and I will change my stance. The claim is not only denying her faith but claiming another. ---------- Post added May-10th-2011 at 12:37 AM ---------- If giving your life to save/protect others is respected/worthy,how much mores so should be risking your soul sir? Are you not one of those who believe his morals should be placed on others through the rule of law? Now if you can disown your faith as a matter of convience then why should your morals be imposed upon others? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hubbs Posted May 10, 2011 Share Posted May 10, 2011 Well I tell you what you show me scriptures that state it is okay to deny your faith and love, and claim love for another as a means of saving your life and I will change my stance. Peter: I don't know that guy. Peter: No, seriously, I don't know that guy. Peter: Look, I'm not making **** up, I don't know that guy. Upon this rock a church is founded.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DRSmith Posted May 10, 2011 Share Posted May 10, 2011 Peter: I don't know that guy.Peter: No, seriously, I don't know that guy. Peter: Look, I'm not making **** up, I don't know that guy. Upon this rock a church is founded.... Peter was not the rock to begin with and he was deeply ashamed of himself for his actions, and Jesus told him he was going to do this, but Jesus did not claim to say he was something else. Peter still in the ended up in prison for his faith and tradition has it that he was martyred. This is account does not show it is okay so please find another that states it is okay Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twa Posted May 10, 2011 Share Posted May 10, 2011 [/color] Are you not one of those who believe his morals should be placed on others through the rule of law? Now if you can disown your faith as a matter of convience then why should your morals be imposed upon others? My morals?....No,though most all law is based on someones morals Afraid to answer?..... Convenience? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mardi gras skin Posted May 10, 2011 Share Posted May 10, 2011 Well I tell you what you show me scriptures that state it is okay to deny your faith and love, and claim love for another as a means of saving your life and I will change my stance.The claim is not only denying her faith but claiming another. The correct question is, "Is it ok to lie to protect defenseless people from violence?" And of course it is. In Joshua 2:1-6, Rahab lies to protect the Hebrew spies and goes down as a hero. She's commended for her faithfulness in Hebrews 11:31 and she's an example of faithfulness in James 2:25. This lady in Egypt was given a choice. Telling the truth would make her complicit in murder but telling a lie would protected the innocent. She made the most loving choice she could make and in doing so she showed herself to be a faithful disciple of Christ: "By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another." _Jesus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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