DRSmith Posted May 10, 2011 Share Posted May 10, 2011 God specifically told Abraham to sacrifice his son. Did God tell this woman to sacrifice her family? No, he did not. She also wasn't told to leave her homeland. There are a lot of things Abraham was told to do that this lady was not told to do. So what? Matthew 10 is talking about loyalties. Is a person willing to be a loyal follower of Christ even though it means division, even a division between kin? That is not the issue at hand. The issue here is, "was this lady disloyal to God when she lied to protect her family?" Unless you believe that loyalty to God is something can be coerced at gunpoint, the answer has to be "no". So I'll ask you again, Do you believe that a person can be coerced at gunpoint to be loyal and disloyal to God? Can we go around and make or break converts by threatening to kill family members? Really so those words of Jesus to his followers in Matthew then mean nothing? No the issue at hand was did she have faith God could make it right or did she love one more than the other? No a person can not be forced they can choose to be disloyal. You will not make a real convert what you will do is show what a person values the most. Luke 14 25-33 present this in another way but says the same thing. If you read the words of Jesus you see that following him was not going to be a life of ease there were going to be hardships and he told people this, because we for the most part live in a part of the world where we do not face such situations as decribed in the bible we often do not give much thought to these passages. ---------- Post added May-10th-2011 at 08:48 AM ---------- That you can't know.I remember asking my Grandmother why they didn't fight. She said something like... her parents told her that no one believed they would do this. Why would the Germans kill a people who were doing nothing to them and weren't a threat? The Jews were always persecuted and usually if they just stayed quiet it would settle down and life would go on. After all, the Germans were people not monsters. On the other hand, if the Jews resisted there was sure to be reprisals. Better to put up with a little bullying and a little stealing. It's sort of like airline hijackings. In the 70's and 80's.... really, until 9/11 if you were unlucky enough to be hijacked the terrorists would divert the plane, scare the hell out of you, and go on their merry way. No one dreamed that they would ram the plane into buildings killing themselves and others. That's why they didn't resist on the first two flights. When word was passed on the third flight, the passengers did fight back. The Germans and Al Qaeda broke the rules. They actually were monsters. It is has always been my belief that if the German people who had claimed the Christian faith had held to it the Jews would have been fine as no one would have done to them what was done. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Burgold Posted May 10, 2011 Share Posted May 10, 2011 Well sure. I think that goes for most religions though. Most religions are great until you get humans involved in them. I don't blame Christianity for the Holocaust. That'd be insanity. I blame insanity for the Holocaust. Now, the Crusades and the Inquistion, I do think Christianity has a bit to answer for. There has been a ton of bad (and good) done in the name of God. God probably gets really irritated by all the stuff done in his name. For example, God has no interest in Dallas winning the Superbowl. He just doesn't take sides that ways. Anyways, I spotted God sporting the burgandy and gold once and when I asked him about the pagan connection he told me to "Silence mine lips" and began singing "Hail to the Redskins" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DRSmith Posted May 10, 2011 Share Posted May 10, 2011 Well sure. I think that goes for most religions though. Most religions are great until you get humans involved in them.I don't blame Christianity for the Holocaust. That'd be insanity. I blame insanity for the Holocaust. Now, the Crusades and the Inquistion, I do think Christianity has a bit to answer for. There has been a ton of bad (and good) done in the name of God. God probably gets really irritated by all the stuff done in his name. For example, God has no interest in Dallas winning the Superbowl. He just doesn't take sides that ways. Anyways, I spotted God sporting the burgandy and gold once and when I asked him about the pagan connection he told me to "Silence mine lips" and began singing "Hail to the Redskins" Well even today I see things that make me shake my head, even this incident both sides were doing harm to each and Jesus told his followers to leave a city if they presecuate you. We have 10 of thousands of Coptics here in Canada I know we could accomodate millions more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mardi gras skin Posted May 10, 2011 Share Posted May 10, 2011 Really so those words of Jesus to his followers in Matthew then mean nothing? Jesus' words don't mean, "the lives of your family members are worthless to me" as you apparently think they do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mardi gras skin Posted May 10, 2011 Share Posted May 10, 2011 No the issue at hand was did she have faith God could make it right or did she love one more than the other?No a person can not be forced they can choose to be disloyal. You will not make a real convert what you will do is show what a person values the most. So, if I understand you correctly, (a decoder ring would be so helpful) if someone tells me they believe in God because I put a gun in their face and told them to believe in God, I should not believe them...they aren't really faithful. But if a person tells me the do not believe in God because I put a gun in their face and told them to reject God, I should believe them...because they aren't really faithful. Did I get that right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Destino Posted May 10, 2011 Share Posted May 10, 2011 If we want to get biblical perhaps we should stop questioning this woman's faith? If you think in your heart that what she did was wrong, forgive her and pray for her. It is not our place pass these sorts of judgments. The focus should be on those that kidnapped her and threatened her family. That action on it's own is terrible enough but to then turn around and use this to foment violence by claiming she was being held against her will is unconscionable. People are dying. People are fearing for their safety. God can deal with the worthiness of souls and man must deal with the crimes happening right now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twa Posted May 10, 2011 Share Posted May 10, 2011 Seems rather simple when ya put it like that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DRSmith Posted May 11, 2011 Share Posted May 11, 2011 So, if I understand you correctly, (a decoder ring would be so helpful) if someone tells me they believe in God because I put a gun in their face and told them to believe in God, I should not believe them...they aren't really faithful. But if a person tells me the do not believe in God because I put a gun in their face and told them to reject God, I should believe them...because they aren't really faithful. Did I get that right? Guns or any weapons are not things that will build real faith, much like making laws. But the they can test a person's faith a person faced with the threat of death can deny their faith or they can show that their faith in God can not be broken. There was a reason why Paul used violence before his conversion and there is a reason violence was used on Jesus after other means had been used. ---------- Post added May-11th-2011 at 09:25 AM ---------- If we want to get biblical perhaps we should stop questioning this woman's faith? If you think in your heart that what she did was wrong, forgive her and pray for her. It is not our place pass these sorts of judgments. The focus should be on those that kidnapped her and threatened her family. That action on it's own is terrible enough but to then turn around and use this to foment violence by claiming she was being held against her will is unconscionable. People are dying. People are fearing for their safety. God can deal with the worthiness of souls and man must deal with the crimes happening right now. I said one can not be forced to convert and that is what brought about this discussion. Problem is there is now three different stories about what has happened over there. And yes those who use violence should be punished. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan T. Posted May 11, 2011 Share Posted May 11, 2011 DR you're not doing organized religion any favors by clinging so fiercely to your moronic argument. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DRSmith Posted May 11, 2011 Share Posted May 11, 2011 DR you're not doing organized religion any favors by clinging so fiercely to your moronic argument. I have backed it up with scripture it may not be popular but the bible is full of examples of people who were losing to lose thier life of lost love ones becuase of being faithful, being faithful is not suppose to be a cake walk. Jesus never said it was going to be, he told his followers it would be rough for them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tweedr01 Posted May 11, 2011 Share Posted May 11, 2011 Man, I'm split on this, I have no idea what I would do in this situation. It reminds me of Columbine where the shooter asked the girl if she was a Christian, as soon as she said yes, he shot and killed her. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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