INN: Islamists Massacre Two Coptic Families in Egypt

[DRSmith]

My morals?....No,though most all law is based on someones morals

Afraid to answer?..... Convenience?

Answer what?

[mardi gras skin]

Smith, as you believe faithlessness can be coerced at gunpoint, do you believe that faithfulness can be coerced at gunpoint as well?

[DRSmith]

The correct question is, "Is it ok to lie to protect defenseless people from violence?" And of course it is. In Joshua 2:1-6, Rahab lies to protect the Hebrew spies and goes down as a hero. She's commended for her faithfulness in Hebrews 11:31 and she's an example of faithfulness in James 2:25.

This lady in Egypt was given a choice. Telling the truth would make her complicit in murder but telling a lie would protected the innocent. She made the most loving choice she could make and in doing so she showed herself to be a faithful disciple of Christ:

"By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another."

_Jesus

No telling the truth would not make her complicite, those who do the act would be guilty by themselves.

Was Jesus guilty for the death of his followers, he knew they would suffer and told them so

If Rahab had been caught lying she would have been killed, and one must remember at the time Rahab was not a worshipper of God if you want to say her lying at that point was okay you have to say her harlotry was too. If the claim is true and she was lying to her captors then I guess they will have to go ahead with their threat of course her telling the truth now would make her complicit.

---------- Post added May-10th-2011 at 07:01 AM ----------

Smith, as you believe faithlessness can be coerced at gunpoint, do you believe that faithfulness can be coerced at gunpoint as well?

No God never forces a person to be faithful you either are or you are not

[mardi gras skin]

No telling the truth would not make her complicite, those who do the act would be guilty by themselves.

Was it a loving act for her to save the lives of her family or wasn't it?

If Rahab had been caught lying she would have been killed, if the claim is true and she was lying to her captors then I guess they will have to go ahead with their threat of course her telling the truth now would make her complicit.

I can't unscramble the code you used here. Can you try again?

[DRSmith]

Was it a loving act for her to save the lives of her family or wasn't it?

I can't unscramble the code you used here. Can you try again?

So you would say that Abraham by being willing to offer up his son as a show of faith was an unloving parent?

God was an unloving parent sending his son to Earth knowing he was going to be tortured and killed?

If they were going to kill her kids before why won't they kill them now?

[mardi gras skin]

Ok, so we are left to assume that you believe her lying to protect her family was not a loving act.

Fine. You're theology is one that values honesty above the lives of people.

[DRSmith]

Ok, so we are left to assume that you believe her lying to protect her family was not a loving act.

Fine. You're theology is one that values honesty above the lives of people.

No because at the end of the day if you teach your children that it is okay to deny your faith to save you life then what are teaching them for the future?

If Jesus words are to be believed and that found in Revelation

Jesus never said being a Christian was going to be easy in fact he said the opposite and he knew people would be faced with these sorts of situations so he said in Matthew

28*And do not become fearful of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul; but rather be in fear of him that can destroy both soul and body in Ge‧hen′na

[mardi gras skin]

No because at the end of the day if you teach your children that it is okay to deny your faith to save you life then what are teaching them for the future?

I will teach my daughters this: "This is how everyone will know that you are a disciple of Christ...that you love each other." I will teach them that a theology that devalues innocent life so much that you'd rather see people killed than tell a lie to protect them is not a loving theology. I will point them to great men and women in the Bible who loved God and loved their fellow humans more than they loved a rigid, cold hearted philosophy that unthinkingly demands honestly regardless of the consequences.

In short, I will point to you and tell them, "Avoid becoming like this man at all costs."

[Burgold]

No because at the end of the day if you teach your children that it is okay to deny your faith to save you life then what are teaching them for the future?

If Jesus words are to be believed and that found in Revelation

Jesus never said being a Christian was going to be easy in fact he said the opposite and he knew people would be faced with these sorts of situations so he said in Matthew

28*And do not become fearful of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul; but rather be in fear of him that can destroy both soul and body in Ge‧hen′na

In Judaism, there is a long history of hiding one's faith that pretty much goes back to biblical times. When you are surrounded by armies who will slaughter you for the crime of faith, faith becomes a more private devotion. In the 1950's most Jews in the United States refused to wear a chai or talk about their faith for fear of ostracization, abuse, or denial of jobs. That doesn't mean that in their homes or amongst their community that they weren't devout, serious, and fervant. It means that sometimes a public mask is a greater good.

Even today, my mother winces when I admit on radio or even here on ES that I'm Jewish beause she thinks it puts me in danger. These people were not unfaithful because they protected their families and themselves from extinction. It's easy as a member of a comfortable majority to look down and declare right and wrong. In practical terms, faith is a private thing. It is a communion between you and God or your family and God. If you believe, God knows your heart. That's enough. A rose by any other name, you know... My devotion to my faith can be seen in how I live my life and in my heart. Hopefully, that's sufficient.

[DRSmith]

I will teach my daughters this: "This is how everyone will know that you are a disciple of Christ...that you love each other." I will teach them that a theology that devalues innocent life so much that you'd rather see people killed than tell a lie to protect them is not a loving theology. I will point them to great men and women in the Bible who loved God and loved their fellow humans more than they loved a rigid, cold hearted philosophy that unthinkingly demands honestly regardless of the consequences.

In short, I will point to you and tell them, "Avoid becoming like this man at all costs."

Okay and will you rip out those pages from the bible that say things you do not like that I quoted?

---------- Post added May-10th-2011 at 08:00 AM ----------

In Judaism, there is a long history of hiding one's faith that pretty much goes back to biblical times. When you are surrounded by armies who will slaughter you for the crime of faith, faith becomes a more private devotion. In the 1950's most Jews in the United States refused to wear a chai or talk about their faith for fear of ostracization, abuse, or denial of jobs. That doesn't mean that in their homes or amongst their community that they weren't devout, serious, and fervant. It means that sometimes a public mask is a greater good.

Even today, my mother winces when I admit on radio or even here on ES that I'm Jewish beause she thinks it puts me in danger. These people were not unfaithful because they protected their families and themselves from extinction. It's easy as a member of a comfortable majority to look down and declare right and wrong. In practical terms, faith is a private thing. It is a communion between you and God or your family and God. If you believe, God knows your heart. That's enough. A rose by any other name, you know... My devotion to my faith can be seen in how I live my life and in my heart. Hopefully, that's sufficient.

So if I was in Germany in the thirities and forties I should have done what ever it would have took to survive and blend in inlcuding treating Jews as less than human?

By the way did Daniel and his three friends hide their faith?

[mardi gras skin]

Okay and will you rip out those pages from the bible that say things you do not like that I quoted?

nope.

So if I was in Germany in the thirities and forties I should have done what ever it would have took to survive and blend in inlcuding treating Jews as less than human?

If you were in Germany in the thirties and forties you should have been willing to lie to protect the Jews who were being treated as less than human just as this lady in Egypt lied to protect the lives of people who were being treated as less than human.

That might have been the worst analogy you could have used.

Edit: wait...did you edit that out or something? Weird.

[DRSmith]

nope.

If you were in Germany in the thirties and forties you should have been willing to lie to protect the Jews who were being treated as less than human just as this lady in Egypt lied to protect the lives of people who were being treated as less than human.

That might have been the worst analogy you could have used.

Well then you have youself a problem because by in large all I have done is quote Jesus's word and showed examples of men such as Abraham whose faith was not out weighed by love for his son.

In Germany I would have run into more problems not taking up arms and engaging in killing people.

By the way does she not now rish the life of children by saying she only said the things she said to save them? I mean what is to stop these people from now killing her children?

[Burgold]

So if I was in Germany in the thirities and forties I should have done what ever it would have took to survive and blend in inlcuding treating Jews as less than human?

If you were a person of true faith, you wouldn't need to proclaim your Jewishness on the streets. However, if you were a person of true faith you could not act in opposition to your teachings either. In other words, saying "I'm not a Jew" when confronted is Kosher. Hurting or betraying others is not. I can tell you that my Grandmother in Lodz in 1939 (before it was ghettoized) snuck into a line for food that was for Polish "citizens" and not Jews (Polish Jews were already not considered citizens) when asked if she was Jewish she denied it. When asked where her papers were she said there was so little food these days that when she saw the truck she ran to the line and begged not to be sent away because if she left to get her papers there would be nothing left by the time she returned. Eventually, they gave in and gave her some food. As she was walking away, someone from the line shouted that she was indeed a Jew. The Germans fired some shots at her, but she got away. When I asked her why she took this risk she said simply, "I had a family"

She did not betray God nor her family by lying that day.

[DRSmith]

If you were a person of true faith, you wouldn't need to proclaim your Jewishness on the streets. However, if you were a person of true faith you could not act in opposition to your teachings either. In other words, saying "I'm not a Jew" when confronted is Kosher. Hurting or betraying others is not. I can tell you that my Grandmother in Lodz in 1939 (before it was ghettoized) snuck into a line for food that was for Polish "citizens" and not Jews (Polish Jews were already not considered citizens) when asked if she was Jewish she denied it. When asked where her papers were she said there was so little food these days that when she saw the truck she ran to the line and begged not to be sent away because if she left to get her papers there would be nothing left by the time she returned. Eventually, they gave in and gave her some food. As she was walking away, someone from the line shouted that she was indeed a Jew. The Germans fired some shots at her, but she got away. When I asked her why she took this risk she said simply, "I had a family"

She did not betray God nor her family by lying that day.

Question for you should Abraham had said no this my son that you promised this is my family?

By the way would your grandmother have said she was a convert to another faith, this is not a case of someone simply saying I am not this, this person claimed to convert to another faith.

[Burgold]

Impossible to know since admitting you were Jewish was an immediate death sentence. I know that she lied to the Germans, lied to the KGB, and did whatever she could to preserve her family. In my view in none of these circumstances did she betray herself.

As for the Biblical Abraham, I think I would argue there's a very big difference between ignoring or disobeying a direct and indisputable edict from God and lying to a murdering ****.

[grhqofb5]

Impossible to know since admitting you were Jewish was an immediate death sentence. I know that she lied to the Germans, lied to the KGB, and did whatever she could to preserve her family. In my view in none of these circumstances did she betray herself.

As for the Biblical Abraham, I think I would argue there's a very big difference between ignoring or disobeying a direct and indisputable edict from God and lying to a murdering ****.

William Wallace said it best: "An oath to a liar is no oath at all."

[DRSmith]

And the end of this 12 people were still killed hundreds injured and now close too two hundred people face military trials. So in the end even if the story she is telling is true it did not mean the saving of lives.

[Bang]

"Rumpelstiltskin is king!"

"No! Aquaman is king!"

"Take that back or I'll kill you!"

"Rahhhr!"

"Wait! what about King Hello Kitty?"

"Shut up, Buddhist freak! Rumplestiltskin!"

"Aquaman!"

"Rumplestiltskin!"

"Aquaman!"

"Raaahhhr!"

This is what I hear.

~Bang

[twa]

God asking something from Abraham is fundamentally different from this situation.

[DRSmith]

Impossible to know since admitting you were Jewish was an immediate death sentence. I know that she lied to the Germans, lied to the KGB, and did whatever she could to preserve her family. In my view in none of these circumstances did she betray herself.

As for the Biblical Abraham, I think I would argue there's a very big difference between ignoring or disobeying a direct and indisputable edict from God and lying to a murdering ****.

Does not the bible speak many times against lying, we are all human imperfect but if the edict from God is to not lie should we try our very best to not do it?

Daniel and his friends could have denied their faith at any point in time while in Babylon and enjoyed an easier time of it.

---------- Post added May-10th-2011 at 08:32 AM ----------

God asking something from Abraham is fundamentally different from this situation.

How is Abrham being asked to show faith in the face of a difficult request any different than us being asked to show faith even when it presents a hardship to us?

[Bang]

Eh,, i got up in a vinegary mood. It'd be best if i stayed out of here.

Sorry y'all!

~Bang

[DRSmith]

Gone hope your cornflakes taste better

[mardi gras skin]

Well then you have youself a problem...

God specifically told Abraham to sacrifice his son. Did God tell this woman to sacrifice her family? No, he did not. She also wasn't told to leave her homeland. There are a lot of things Abraham was told to do that this lady was not told to do. So what?

And do not become fearful of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul; but rather be in fear of him that can destroy both soul and body in Ge‧hen′na

Matthew 10 is talking about loyalties. Is a person willing to be a loyal follower of Christ even though it means division, even a division between kin? That is not the issue at hand. The issue here is, "was this lady disloyal to God when she lied to protect her family?" Unless you believe that loyalty to God is something can be coerced at gunpoint, the answer has to be "no".

So I'll ask you again, Do you believe that a person can be coerced at gunpoint to be loyal and disloyal to God? Can we go around and make or break converts by threatening to kill family members?

[Bang]

No because when one looks at it we realize God was only showing us what he was going to do in regards to his own son.

Sorry DR. i edited while you posted it seems.

My cornflakes tasted kind of uriney today.

peace

~Bang

[Burgold]

That you can't know.

I remember asking my Grandmother why they didn't fight. She said something like... her parents told her that no one believed they would do this. Why would the Germans kill a people who were doing nothing to them and weren't a threat? The Jews were always persecuted and usually if they just stayed quiet it would settle down and life would go on. After all, the Germans were people not monsters. On the other hand, if the Jews resisted there was sure to be reprisals. Better to put up with a little bullying and a little stealing.

It's sort of like airline hijackings. In the 70's and 80's.... really, until 9/11 if you were unlucky enough to be hijacked the terrorists would divert the plane, scare the hell out of you, and go on their merry way. No one dreamed that they would ram the plane into buildings killing themselves and others. That's why they didn't resist on the first two flights. When word was passed on the third flight, the passengers did fight back. The Germans and Al Qaeda broke the rules. They actually were monsters.