A Very Serious Question for ASF and Others: Why Don't You Walk Away?

[grantarchy]

I couldn't agree more ASF...and Dan Snyder can't TOUCH any of those things you mentioned....this is my point. He can't ruin your personal relationships or your memories. How he treats his limo driver or phone customers doesn't affect how you feel about your family (Redskins family and real family) or anything else. Whatever sins he has committed, aren't yours, they are his. So, I will ask this question in all honesty...do you think you would have started the other thread if EVERYTHING we knew about Snyder was excactly the same, but we'd won three Super Bowls since he arrived?

I am a good person, a business owner, and I love the Redskins. That will never change. I hope people feel the exact opposite way about me as they do Snyder.

Dan Snyder can't "ruin" a damn thing for me.

Limo drivers and phone customers aside - how about how he treats the Redskins? That is really the root of all the discontent. I'm just surprised that you go out of your way to say it all starts with Snyder and yet you are content to support him. I get what you're saying -- he's just the owner, I still love the team -- unfortunately I find it difficult to remain silent when it feels like things will not get better as long as he is running things. And I don't think that the fanbase just shutting up and blindly cheering will make matters any better.

Very odd - I know that a lot of people get uptight about the complaints about Snyder and want the people who make them to go away. I personally would like for the Snyder enablers, who tacitly support mediocrity, to do the same. We are all fans, however. It's a shame that the owner is constantly a subject of conversation. I don't consider that the fans fault.

[skinsnshanny]

You want him to lower prices when a team sucks and raise them when we're good again? Please, I have never felt like prices ad Fedex were terribly higher than what I assume is probably an NFL standard. And as a business man, why would you charge less than people are willing to pay. You think gas should be 1.50 because times are tough? As long as people will pay 4 dollars a gallon why shouldn't companies charge it?

No i think charging to attend practice, to park in ashburn, to not allow people to walk to Fedex....i think those are things that would be overlooked if the team is winning bc people would be willing to pay a premium for a better product. I think doing those things while losing is silly. Suing fans while having a 200,000 person waitlist during a losing season?

I totally agree that as a business man he can do as he pleases and make as much money as he wants, but thats not going to help his rep. But then again its not like he is in a competitive market, he has a monopoly so his pricing strategy is not what it would be in a fully competitive industry. Most pple view monopoly pricing schemes as unfair because MC<MR.

[Jahbird]

The simplest answer is that a lot of our relationships with this team pre-date Dan Snyder. You can't just walk away from something that's a part of you, no matter how ugly it is, no matter how corrupt. Dan Snyder's owns his failure whenever he steps in front of a microphone, the rest of us wear it like a glove.

[tibbidoe]

Danny Boy, and his tremendous level of suck, will never make me root for another team/against the Redskins.

Just because he is a horrible owner who may be around for the next 30-40 years doesn’t matter.

I will always love the Redskins and despise the owner.

It’s MY choice and nothing anyone can say or do will ever change that.

That is all.

[Bibby]

On the other hand, I live in Pittsburgh. I have every reason to want to see a Pittsburgh victory, if nothing else for the sake of happy professors and a happy boss monday morning. But I can't get over how annoying people are here. They haven't stopped playing that damn black and yellow song and they won't shut up about how they are the best. Worst of all, they always want to convert you. That's what I always respected about skins fans. Love us or hate us, we never want you to convert. We'd rather hate you. Here, they always want you to switch sides. And don't even get me started on the damn Pens.

So superbowl week is really just magnifying this identity crisis lol. :40oz:

I laughed out loud at this post, because I know what you're talking about. I'm about an hour outside of Pittsburgh going to school and all ive heard is that black and yellow song. You're so on point about them wanting to convert you too. I walked into a friends room and he had Penguins stuff everywhere, told him how ugly his room was and he was like you should touch it and maybe it will rub off on you and you can become a fan. Haha no thanks.

To keep on topic though.. Nah Snyders outside problems don't really affect how I feel about this team. He doesn't seem like a guy I'd like even if he was just an average joe. If we win I won't praise him just like when we lose I don't call for his head.

[pimpumd]

The Redskins are family.

I didn't choose my parents or the Redskins, and I don't walk away from family.

The family to which I refer are people like Joe Gibbs, Art Monk and Darrell Green in their prime. They include good players, bad players, and even guys who didn't make the final roster as rookies, all these many years. They include friends with whom I've rooted for the team. They include classmates with whom I played high school football in D.C., aspiring to be a little like Washington Redskins. They include members of this forum since 2002 with whom I've debated all these years. All these people are my Redskins family.

Why should I leave my family?

At this point, my experience of Redskins family has more to do with forums like this, than the players on the field at any given time. There's a rootless, passing quality to Redskins players under Snyder. The better people here and in places like CPND outlast the better Redskins players.

Over at CPND, there's a guy named Amudgarden who's a better forum member than any Redksin player in recent years. Terry's a super member there. They don't even know I exist, but I consider them Redskins family, much like my favorite players on the field. I find myself missing forum members like Ball Coach Spurrier more than the real Steve Spurrier. Snyder has distanced me a bit from the actual players of any given year.

At the same time, hardship brings out the best in some people and some fans. Dan Snyder is like cancer in the family. It's upsetting, but it's no cause to walk away.

Out in the real world, I am challenged daily on a grave basis. By comparison, the Redskins family remains a pleasant diversion. It's always been this way. No matter the score or the owner, being a Redskins fan has always felt like coming home.

I hate to tell you, but Dan Snyder is now part of your family. You already acknowledged that the "bad" Redskins players of the present/past are considered part of your "family," so now you must accept this "bad" owner as part of your family as well. You cannot simply label him a "cancer" of the family. He is an actual family member (sucks, I know). However, believe it or not, some people have had family members who are/were so awful and/or repugnant that the person (sometimes the whole family) does, ultimately, sever all ties with that offending family member. I guess that is an option here.

I definitely see the OP's point and I'm sure there are numerous former Skins fans that have been so completely turned off by Snyder that they've permanently severed ties with the Redskins family. That sucks, but like the OP, I'm a fan of the Redskins and since I can't control who owns the team, I don't get too bent out of shape over the non-football related issues associated with the owner. Yeah, Danny has sucked so far as an owner. Maybe I'm naive, but I actually think he's starting to get it and by that, I mean he's starting to understand his involvement in football operations is BAD for this team. I guess we'll see.

[Burgold]

I agree with Kleese. This is a game and a sport. It's supposed to be an outlet. If all you get is misery from it and if you can find no joy why not take a holiday? I understand the Redskins' being in the blood and being addicted to them. I get that they're the home team and you feel personally connected with them. I even understand that glimmer of hope that stems from childhood memory. But if they really cause you nothing but pain and embarrassement and if they really make you miserable all the time... some time with the family is nice, some time shooting pool, or fishing, or doing yardwork, or going to the theater can be fun. Why subject yourself to something that you've lost the capacity to enjoy. Watching sports is an escapist release. It's a social activity. There are others.

I still watch the 'skins because I haven't reached that tipping point and there are enough players that give me hope. I love the Armstrongs and Banks on this team. Fantastic underdog stories. I love the grit of a Fletcher, the attitude of an Orakpo, and the hustle of an Alexander. I still enjoy the chess match and screaming for us. I'm still riding the roller coaster.

I do agree with Kleese though... if I truly hated Snyder and hated this team... I'd take a sabatical. I'd turn off the tv, not go to the games, and find a way to enjoy life and recharge my batteries. After all, sometimes people outgrow things they once truly loved even their favorite toy or baby blanket. Life is hard and stressful enough that your favorite team shouldn't be a burden that breaks your back.

[SkinsFTW]

The thing is, if we had all walked away and only the homers were left you'd be sitting here rooting for a team right now run by Snyder and Cerrato, and all the same Fantasy Football crap would be going on, all the changing coaches every 2 years would go on indefinitely with no GM, picks traded for old former Pro Bowlers, FA's signed left and right whether or not they even fill a need on the roster, forever. You'd all buy into the hype time after time as well.

He changed, or wants us to believe that, because we all complained loudly to the point where he even tried to ban opinion at the stadium, then within a month he fired his partner in crime and hired a GM for the first time ever. He knows the fans hate the way he's ran the team and that's why his wife goes on TV to tell us all that he's changed. Anyway, I just think it's ridiculous to think that 2/3's or more of the teams fanbase is going to just find a new team because an asshat purchases the team. If it was like that then there would only be 5-6 NFL teams with any significant fan support. Most of the team owners are ****tards, everybody would be a Steelers, Packers, or Giants fan. It's like when Bush became president and all those liberals threatened to move to another country, did they? Hell no, just like the conservatives didn't leave when Obama won either. It sucks but we're still American.

[Chump Bailey]

Out in the real world, I am challenged daily on a grave basis. By comparison, the Redskins family remains a pleasant diversion. It's always been this way. No matter the score or the owner, being a Redskins fan has always felt like coming home.

Amen...

[Bootleg]

In strictly business terms, Dan Snyder has a monopoly...

What is the alternative to the Washington Redskins? What other team is there that one would have invested so much emotionally into? There is no alternative.

This question reminds me of one of those overreactions to someone complaining about the direction of America or its leadership... "If you hate America so much, why don't you get out!"

If only it were that easy.

[psu2008]

I've been a fan since day one when I was born. Yeah, Snyder has done many bad things and I can see why he'd piss people off, but for me, I'll always be a fan no matter what. I can never see myself cheering for another team. Fandom for some people like me, makes you do stupid things (i.e. continue to have season tickets when they are way overpriced and buy merchandise).

I'll always be a Skins fan. I'll complain like everyone else, but at the end of the day love is really blind.

[RedskinsInFebruary]

You are confused on one point: the Redskins ARE a public trust, they are the birth right of any fan who grew up in DC watching football under real ownership. To think any different is being small minded. We cannot let one worm ruin something that was has been so deeply ingrained into our souls, the worm must go, not the fans.

Well put. There's much more to the equation than simply Snyder's the owner and you're not.

[stat2883]

I have no real strong opinion of Snyder either way, no matter what I can't support anyone but the skins. Of course I would like things to change and we field a consistent winner, but it is what it is and I have to believe that at some point we'll be back, be it next year or next decade...or longer. One thing I've always said (long before this season) is that the Steelers are the team I wish Washington was - everything from ownership, culture, right down to the players, coaches, and team philosophy / attitude. I respect and even like the Steelers, but nothing will pull me away from the skins. All I can do is hope things get better.

[RedskinsInFebruary]

Dan Snyder is the owner of the Washington Redskins. Not you.

The Redskins are not a public trust. They are a private business.

Dan Snyder is not an elected official who is charged with carrying out your wishes and representing your best interests.

I own my own business, and while I think Snyder would be wise to run the Redskins as if they WERE a public trust, he is not obligated to do so.

This constitutes a bifurcation fallacy. Either like what he does, or leave, a standard fallacy people commit to attempt to absolve themselves from some kind of responsibility (a rationalization). Of course in reality there are several other options, attempting to influence the situation among them. Just because things are the way they are by law (e.g.), doesn't necessarily mean they should be or that they can never be modified.

[Burgold]

This constitutes a bifurcation fallacy. Either like what he does, or leave, a standard fallacy people commit to attempt to absolve themselves from some kind of responsibility (a rationalization). Of course in reality there are several other options, attempting to influence the situation among them. Just because things are the way they are by law (e.g.), doesn't necessarily mean they should be or that they can never be modified.

I agree, but it does seem that there are people who hate Snyder, hate the players, hate the game day experience, hate Fed Ex, and even have an issue with most of their fellow fans. It's these guys that I sometimes look at and wonder... why are you doing this to yourselves? If you're that miserable there are things in life other than watching football.

[polywog999]

I guess being a homer is easy for me. I was a Redskin fan for over thirty years, and a Redskin's fan I shall remain. I don't get that mad about something I can't control. If I know we are bad, I cannot expect to bowl people over. We are what we are. A crappy team. I would rather be loyal to a crappy team, then some ban-wagon-hopping Stealer's fan.

[Ingtar]

Asked already today, and answered twice.

Snyder is incapable of building a winning franchise. He is the cancer. The team will win only when he is in remission, or when he is defeated.

If Mike Shanahan and Bruce Allen succeed, they will win despite Snyder, with Snyder in remission.

Dave McKenna and fan revolts are like aggressive cancer treatments. If the host is sufficiently toxic to the cancer, the cancer may someday run its course and disappear.

Like any given Sunday, the outcome is always in doubt. I'm rooting for the home team.

I am in no way a Snyder supporter, however I have to take exception to this.

In your arguments against Snyder's lawsuit, I seem to remember you and others feeling it is morally repugnant for Snyder to run the City Paper out of business because they printed something he took exception to.

Are you not attempting to do THE PRECISE SAME THING? You disagree with the actions Snyder has taken as the owner of his business. As such, you are taking up the yoke to make doing business so damaging that he will walk away from it. How is this different? To "defeat" Snyder, wouldn't you have to cut the team's profitability dramatically? As with aggressive cancer treatment, sometimes the treatment doesn't only kill the cancer, it kills the patient. How would it feel if you won your grand victory over Snyder, only to have the Redskins sold to an owner in Los Angeles?

[SWFLSkins]

OP, Can you please form a logically cogent and relevant point because I can't quite seem to fathom what exactly are you trying to say.

SirClinton, from the Fedex south crew>?

Back on topic, I actually enjoyed Kleese's take on this and thought he made some good points, like the restaurant twist. You simply would not return after not getting the treatment you so enjoyed in the past. As for the Redskins too many fans forget that the team sucked for a long time before they were good in the Gibbs 1 era. When Gibbs resigned for tour two I thought for sure that Snyder was going to have this team figured out ownership wise, I don't know that he does. Look at his hires and his overall image, it is embarassing to the Redskins and it's fans.

Will Snyders impact make me stop watching and following the team, NO. Would it impact my going to $games, buying more $merch, being the loudest Redskins fan in a room of football fans? Honestly, Yes. That is sad, but I will continue to root for the team and the players, not the owner.

[TimmySmith]

Why should any of us let Snyder the scumbag remove something that is so near and dear to our hearts? I have walked away in the sense that I have given up my tickets and will not support him financially.

[Oldfan]

Here's the thing, Ed. For me, your restaurant analogy doesn't work. If the food at my favorite restaurant goes downhill, I can easily find a new favorite local restaurant. SkinsFTW and Bootleg have a better analogy to describe my feelings. I'm an American. It would take a lot more than incompetent leadership to cause me to give up my citizenship.

As for Dan Snyder and Dave McKenna -- I see them as a couple of putzes going at it. Their battle offers some comic relief for the long offseason.

[kleese]

Asked already today, and answered twice.

Snyder is incapable of building a winning franchise. He is the cancer. The team will win only when he is in remission, or when he is defeated.

If Mike Shanahan and Bruce Allen succeed, they will win despite Snyder, with Snyder in remission.

Dave McKenna and fan revolts are like aggressive cancer treatments. If the host is sufficiently toxic to the cancer, the cancer may someday run its course and disappear.

Like any given Sunday, the outcome is always in doubt. I'm rooting for the home team.

That seems like a convinient argument to me ASF. You are hedging your bets.....saying he will never build a winner, but if he does it will be IN SPITE of himself. You can't have it both ways, IMO. Either stick by your guns and say the Redskins will never win until Snyder sells or dies or leave open the possibility that you could be wrong. But to say both things in one breath seems easy to me.

---------- Post added February-6th-2011 at 09:13 AM ----------

Here's the thing, Ed. For me, your restaurant analogy doesn't work. If the food at my favorite restaurant goes downhill, I can easily find a new favorite local restaurant. SkinsFTW and Bootleg have a better analogy to describe my feelings. I'm an American. It would take a lot more than incompetent leadership to cause me to give up my citizenship.

As for Dan Snyder and Dave McKenna -- I see them as a couple of putzes going at it. Their battle offers some comic relief for the long offseason.

The restauranunt asnalogy is admitedly simplistic, but I also find the "America" analogys to be a bit melodramatic. If someone "ruins" your country it could absolutely affect your personal future and that of your children. Snyder doesn't have that kind of power.

[@DCGoldPants]

because no matter how much of a jerk the owner may or may not be. I root for the Colors, the City, and the team.

My question is this.

Will the outcome of this change the POV of anybody here?

Say he wins his suite and gets 2mil to donate to homeless....and that's it.

Or, say he loses in court....then what for him? anything?

[Oldfan]

The restauranunt asnalogy is admitedly simplistic, but I also find the "America" analogys to be a bit melodramatic. If someone "ruins" your country it could absolutely affect your personal future and that of your children. Snyder doesn't have that kind of power.

The purpose of an analogy is to explain something. What I explained to you is that the America analogy is closer to the truth for me than your analogy. I was not attempting to argue that the two relationships, citizenship and fandom, were exactly the same.

[Hail Gibbs]

Why should any of us let Snyder the scumbag remove something that is so near and dear to our hearts? I have walked away in the sense that I have given up my tickets and will not support him financially.

This is where I am. The Redskins were a part of me and my family long before Snyder came along, so I can't walk away just because I think Snyder is a terrible owner and person. If somehow Snyder turns this ship around and the Skins win multiple super bowls I will be thrilled and also credit him for getting the organization sorted, but I will still think he is a despicable person based on his actions, predominantly those outside of football. Sure I would have probably never know that Snyder is a despicable person had he not owned the Redskins, but that is moot because he does and since he became owner many stories have surfaced which make him seem like a total jerk. So I guess winning will take away the frustration that has gone hand and hand with Snyder's ownership, but it won't make me think he is a good person.

[TheDane]

1982-1991 forged me into a hardcore fan. So much so, that I can say with honesty that I've missed 15 or fewer games since 1992. I am passionate about the Redskins in large part because of the fantastic memories they gave me in my formative growing years.

Dan Snyder is in the latter stages of ruining a team I am passionate about. I hold out hope that my Redskins will be great again. The disconnect makes me angry.

When you compound Snyder's failure as an owner with his well-documented reputation as a bad man, then general anger becomes pointed anger. And for the record, I have four specific stories about Snyder from the time when my old investment firm worked with Snyder Communications that, in addition to public record, make me dislike the man.

To use a hyperbolic analogy: consider a marriage that's hit a rough stretch. You hold out hope that you'll have as beautiful a relationship as you did many years ago. Do you give up?