A Very Serious Question for ASF and Others: Why Don't You Walk Away?

[Elessar78]

OK, why do you like the Redskins, then?

It's all arbitrary. Where you were born, who you were born to... it's a good indicator of who you'll support, who you pray to, and who you'll vote for. Are there a lot of Redskins fans here in Pittsburgh? Hmm...

College sports is different in a way, because you can choose to go to a particular college.

I don't see the need to pledge my undying allegiance to an organization that was determined by something as arbitrary as birthplace. To me, it's a symbiotic relationship. I need the team and the team needs me. If the team doesn't respect me as a fan, then why should I blindly reciprocate?

[Campbell's_da_man]

Dear Abby, thanks for your permission to walk away, or to stay if I wish. It's nice to know that it was already up to me to begin with, before you wasted time writing this foolishness. If it makes you feel better, here's a little cheese with your whine, or misery, or whatever you wanna call it.

By the way, thanks for wasting my time on another garbage thread.

[Jumbo]

Dear Abby' date=' thanks for your permission to walk away, or to stay if I wish. It's nice to know that it was already up to me to begin with, before you wasted time writing this foolishness. If it makes you feel better, here's a little cheese with your whine, or misery, or whatever you wanna call it.

By the way, thanks for wasting my time on another garbage thread.[/quote']

Just fyi, kleese has a long history of making many interesting and high quality discussion threads and posts on this site (that I disagree with him as often as not is immaterial).

To the point, many posters here who are in serious disagreement with some, most, or even all of kleese's points, have been able to make some pertinent and well-articulated counterpoints and some interesting contributions to this discussion without being insulting or just a total dip****.

Rather than post the kind of gratuitously insulting and pointless crap you did in the quote above, try to emulate them and consider yourself lucky you weren't "walked away" for a week on a rule #5 violation.

[kleese]

And there's your answer Ed, and why ASF and others have made the posts since the WCP controversy started last week.

Again.......five coaches in 10 years. Not the hallmark of a good decision-maker.

And while I'm all for Wyllie's attempts to get Snyder out more in the media.......Dan, please stop with the "I've matured" line. You were 34 when you bought the team......most people are plenty mature by then.

That is a valid point, but I'm still not convinced that only "good guys" succeed in the NFL. I think how Snyder made his money and how he runs the Redskins are two separate things. Plenty examples of jerks who are able to succeed at their given profession. Let's say Snyder steps aside and Shanny and crew win Super Bowls. Nothing Snyder did in the past will have changed, but all of a sudden no one will care about phone bills or jumbotrons. It's all immaterial.

---------- Post added February-7th-2011 at 10:21 PM ----------

Just fyi, kleese has a long history of making many interesting and high quality discussion threads and posts on this site (that I disagree with him as often as not is immaterial).

To the point, many posters here who are in serious disagreement with some, most, or even all of kleese's points, have been able to make some pertinent and well-articulated counterpoints and some interesting contributions to this discussion without being insulting or just a total dip****.

Rather than post the kind of gratuitously insulting and pointless crap you did in the quote above, try to emulate them and consider yourself lucky you weren't "walked away" for a week on a rule #5 violation.

Thanks Jumbo, but I expected it. I knew that some people would 1) think I was being a Snyder apologist or 2) was being one of those "go find another team" guys. I hope the people that took the time to read through this thread understand that neither of those things were my motivation.

My Resskins experience has much more to do with Jumbo, Hail2skins, and other fans than it does Snyder. When we win again someday I will rejoice with all of you and Snyder really won't cross my mind either way.

I am also a diehard Cincinnati Reds fan; another proud franchise that went 15 years between playoff appearances and a decade between winning seasons. The team changed hands three times in that span and fans went from angry to frustrated to apathetic. But suddenly it all came together last year and the night the Reds clinched the division was pure greatness. I celebrated with my fellow fans and no owners, past embarrassments, etc came up. It was all about winning again.

I actually believe Snyder has given football control up right now; therefore I couldn't care less about what else he might be doing.

[hail2skins]

That is a valid point, but I'm still not convinced that only "good guys" succeed in the NFL.......

Can't argue Ed, and as I've said, in order to get to that level where you're able to accumulate enough wealth to acquire an NFL or any major sports team (or rise to a CEO of a company) probably requires the person to have a bit of "SOB" in him or her.

For the record, I thought the Shanahan hire was a decent one, and hope it works out.....although I hope the Zorn experiment didn't affect Snyder to the point that he won't hire anyone but retreads from now on.

From a personal level, the guy just sticks in my craw though. The banning of signs last year at a game where the Skins were handing out their own was a huge blunder. And the disingeneous statements......claiming that he was the one who called Gibbs to say that "I think that Zorn can be a great head coach!" and then two years later saying that it was all Vinny's doing......it just doesn't sit well with me.

[Califan007 The Constipated]

Why don't "they" walk away?...Reminds me of an old joke:

City guy gets lost while driving out in the middle of nowhere, and pulls over to ask this old guy sitting on his porch how to get back to the freeway. When he walks up to the guy's porch he notices an old hound dog laying next to him, moaning in discomfort.

"Hey, what's wrong with your dog?" he asks the old man.

"Eh, ol' Rufus is laying on a tack and it's hurtin' him some."

"So, why doesn't he get up and lay somewhere else?"

The old man looks down at the dog, then back up at the stranger, and says "Well...it doesn't hurt him that much..."

[Destino]

When I read this thread I can't help but thinking "careful what you wish for". Each time Snyder does something seriously stupid to further invite the anger of his customer base he's gambling that it's not enough to lose them. Each losing season does even more damage IMO. There is a breaking point somewhere. If the team figures how to be good again he wins. If the team continues to struggle the risk of a serious backlash looms closer. Last season was the most enraged I've ever seen the fanbase with the owner and the team. Never thought I'd see that and I did.

If things get bad enough this team and it's owner is in for a serious rude awakening. Eventually his stand by "hire a big name coach" is going to fail. Not yet though we still have faith that a winner from somewhere else can capture lightning in a bottle twice, the second time with a completely different environment and people. Not sure WHY people think that when the statistics scream otherwise but they do. They eventually will stop unless one of these experiments works.

[Califan007 The Constipated]

.

If things get bad enough this team and it's owner is in for a serious rude awakening. Eventually his stand by "hire a big name coach" is going to fail. Not yet though we still have faith that a winner from somewhere else can capture lightning in a bottle twice, the second time with a completely different environment and people. Not sure WHY people think that when the statistics scream otherwise but they do. They eventually will stop unless one of these experiments works.

Dick Vermeil

Bill Parcells

Tom Coughlin

Dan Reeves

Mike Holmgren

Although Coughlin made it to the AFC Conference Championship game (twice with the Jags) instead of the Super Bowl, enough of these "retread" coaches have worked over the last 10-15 years to still warrant giving it a try.

[Vrikk]

You do realize that the name of this website is "Extremeskins?"

I'm sure this has been brought up before and I've just not been around at the right time to see it, but "Extremeskins" still sounds like a porn site. I'm continually worried about my viewing during work hours.

[Oldfan]

...I think people have convinced themselves that Snyder has "ruined" their experience when IMO no one can affect your experience if you don't let them.

This quote seems to sum up your position.

I don't see how your Redskins fan experience can be unaffected whether they win as a result of competent ownership or lose as a result of incompetent ownership... unless you really don't care that much.

Of late, I'm caring less and less because Dan Snyder is pandering to a fan base that seems quite content with the hiring of Mike Shanahan who strives just to be "competitive" year-to-year rather than going hell-bent for excellence. I don't give a damn about Dan's public or private life, but he's losing me with his piss-poor decision-making.

[Brandon Lloyd Christmas]

i would say dan snyders incompetence has directly related to the poor on field product, which in turn affects my game day experience. i dont know how you could argue otherwise frankly. the decisions hes made and the moves hes made are directly related to how bad this team has been over a decade.

so while ill still watch the redskins because theyre my home town team, ill still be angry when he makes stupid moves that dont pan out.

and on a total side note, he just seems like a prick in general. its hard to be in a guys corner like him. ted leonsis, thats a guy who i would probably give him numerous "benefit of the doubts" because hes a nice guy, all the stories you hear about him are that hes nothing but generous, hard working, and a great decision maker, and hes turned around another bad franchise in this town. dan snyder is the complete opposite, so it makes it kinda tough to root for him.

[stwasm]

I dont really worry about Skins fans changing teams because of Snyder. The thing is, why would any kid growing up now want to be a Skins fan? I am lucky enough to remember the last 2 SBs that we won. Imagine all you know of the Redskins is what Dan Snyder has put on the field. I wouldnt want to be a fan of that. The only thing that keeps me from changing teams are the memories I have of all the amazing seasons and amazing players I watched while I was growing up.

And that's what keeps me coming back. I hate what Dan Snyder has done to the Skins organization. But, seeing the team win those three Super Bowls is what I hang onto.

[paloosa]

This was a very good post because I feel the same way that the OP feels. People can leave and root for another team that wins now. Then what will happen to those same people when their new team start losing and the Redskins start winning? They will dump that team to come back to be Redskins fans or go to another team. People hate Dan Snyder because of his business practices and what the media wants to paint of him. The NFL tried to block him from buying the Redskins and when Cooke's son couldn't buy the team they had to concede that they would have to deal with him as a owner. Why didn't Jack Kent Cooke will the team to his son? Maybe his son wasn't in favor with his dad. No matter what the reason the team was sold and Dan Snyder was the owner. So the NFL has a hand in how Snyder's image is being portrayed and a lot of it has to do with the owners dislike for him.

Look at how they treat Jerry Jones' image and he is very much like Dan Snyder but people love him because the Cowboys win. Look at the love-fest at the Super Bowl and the problems they had before and during the Super Bowl. But that will all be swept under the rug and give him a pass. If the Super Bowl was in DC and fans would have been told at the game that their seats were deemed unuseable or that many people were hurt by falling ice from the stadium then Dan Snyder would have been tarred and feathered. That would have been bigger than the Super Bowl itself because he is viewed in the media as the worst owner in the NFL. So if you don't like the team because of the owner then you haave the choice to leave and I have my own reasons for staying just like the OP does.

[Brandon Lloyd Christmas]

This was a very good post because I feel the same way that the OP feels. People can leave and root for another team that wins now.

how about i just root for the redskins to be a much better team? why should i be complacent with crap? im a fan, i WANT my team to do well, im not just gonna sit around while we suck and go 4-12 and 6-10 and be all hunky dory about it. if youre not currently concerned or frustrated with the results we've been seeing, id have to wonder how you call yourself a fan of this team?

[ECU-ALUM]

It's kinda like living in the United States. I may not like or agree with our elected officials and what they do, but I still love living here and have no desire to move elsewhere.

I have a lot of doubts and questions about Snyder's ability to run an effective organization, but like many others have said I see other teams win the Super Bowl and I want that feeling again with this team so I choose to stay with it. I've got too many memories and spent too much time and money on this team to get up and walk away.

I just get frustrated that many of us are content with getting into the playoffs...I remember when getting into the playoffs was a given! Anything less than a Super Bowl title was a HUGE disappointment!

[Elessar78]

I've got too many memories and spent too much time and money on this team to get up and walk away.

Vegas has a word for this.

[Califan007 The Constipated]

i would say dan snyders incompetence has directly related to the poor on field product, which in turn affects my game day experience. i dont know how you could argue otherwise frankly. the decisions hes made and the moves hes made are directly related to how bad this team has been over a decade.

I didn't get the impression that he was saying Snyder has no effect whatsoever on what transpires on the field...I thought he was saying that some here are focusing way too much on every single negative aspect of his life and decisions, even if they don't have anything to do with the Skins...even if they may have occurred before even being owner of the Skins.

The idea that "winning cures everything" kind of points to how insignificant a lot of this stuff really is...yet we give it the utmost importance and waste little time criticizing it, sometimes even to the point of some people claiming they don't want to be Skins fans anymore. Ben Roethlisberger is called "Worthlessraper" because his alleged actions are considered serious...winning didn't "cure" anything there. Vick is still constantly called "Dog Killer" by a sizeable percentage of fans because his actions were considered serious...winning didn't "cure" anything there. In contrast, a lot of what Snyder is criticized for doing--directly or indirectly--is apparently insignificant enough to warrant dismissal should the Skins start winning.

Of course, if you dismiss any of those things now as insignificant without needing the winning first, you're called a "Snyder apologist" lol...

[kleese]

This quote seems to sum up your position.

I don't see how your Redskins fan experience can be unaffected whether they win as a result of competent ownership or lose as a result of incompetent ownership... unless you really don't care that much.

Of late, I'm caring less and less because Dan Snyder is pandering to a fan base that seems quite content with the hiring of Mike Shanahan who strives just to be "competitive" year-to-year rather than going hell-bent for excellence. I don't give a damn about Dan's public or private life, but he's losing me with his piss-poor decision-making.

Califan just said in one post what I've been trying to say for over a hundred posts now, so please read his above post

But of course I'm happier and enjoy things more when we're good, but if I found myself drawing away now, then what would I have done as a skins fan through the 50s and 60s? Those weren't good decades either; and essentially if a team loses consistently they do so due to poor decision making. In the entire history of this franchise we've really only had about a 20 year span (early 70s through early 90s) where we were consistently good.

[Brandon Lloyd Christmas]

I didn't get the impression that he was saying Snyder has no effect whatsoever on what transpires on the field...I thought he was saying that some here are focusing way too much on every single negative aspect of his life and decisions, even if they don't have anything to do with the Skins...even if they may have occurred before even being owner of the Skins.

The idea that "winning cures everything" kind of points to how insignificant a lot of this stuff really is...yet we give it the utmost importance and waste little time criticizing it, sometimes even to the point of some people claiming they don't want to be Skins fans anymore. Ben Roethlisberger is called "Worthlessraper" because his alleged actions are considered serious...winning didn't "cure" anything there. Vick is still constantly called "Dog Killer" by a sizeable percentage of fans because his actions were considered serious...winning didn't "cure" anything there. In contrast, a lot of what Snyder is criticized for doing--directly or indirectly--is apparently insignificant enough to warrant dismissal should the Skins start winning.

Of course, if you dismiss any of those things now as insignificant without needing the winning first, you're called a "Snyder apologist" lol...

at least for me, the snyder stuff is just embarrassing. he is a direct reflection on the team, and because the team has sucked for a long time, the owner stirring the pot by getting into a questionable lawsuit just adds fuel to the fire. winning will cure some of this, and dude, winning definitely cured it in philly. he was comeback player of the year, and didnt they just give him the key to the city or something (dallas i see lol). and the roethlisburger stuff would be an afterthought had the steelers won.

again, its just more snyder stuff to fuel the fire. itd be nice if we could go one year without dan snyder drama. i guess we'll have to wait til next year! lol

[HailGreen28]

Like many of you....I don't know the answer to that question. It was seemingly something I was born with. I honestly don't remember a time that I wasn't in love with the team...no memory at all of "choosing" them...it's just been that way from the beginning for me. I'm not from the area and neither of parents were Redskins fans....so I really don't know. But I do know that when I fell in love with them, I fell for "Redskins Nation" more than anything...the stands shaking, etc... of course I adored and idolized Gibbs and those teams, but my passion for the team was the same with Norv and everyone else who has followed.

I'm not as happy as a Skins fan now because they aren't good...not because our owner is a jerk. Now, maybe those things go hand in hand, but like I said, it's probably too late for him to stop being a jerk.

The Redskins mean so much more to me than any one man can "ruin." Not even close.

So, do you want the team to do well?

[Phixius]

Dan Snyder is NOT the Redskins, and that's all I have to say about that.

[Conn]

Dan Snyder is NOT the Redskins, and that's all I have to say about that.

Alright, Forrest Gump.

[zoony]

I'd say about 40% of you actually understand what I'm trying to say; quite possibly because I didn't do a sufficient job explaining myself. But just to reiterate:

.

gee, ya think?

you might start with the thread title, Captain Backpedal

[Oldfan]

gee, ya think?

you might start with the thread title, Captain Backpedal

I thought the provocative title was fine. I think Ed could have backed it up with a better argument that too many fans are going over the top in covering McKenna's back in his pissing contest with Dan after a 6-10 season. Their arguments would have fallen on deaf ears if the team had gone 10-6 because most fans don't care about Snyder's past. We want him to lead us back to the top of the heap.

[Skinsinparadise]

Look at how they treat Jerry Jones' image and he is very much like Dan Snyder but people love him because the Cowboys win.

If you go on the Cowboys blogs to see what they are saying, you'll see they don't love Jerry when they don't win.

It's like the Yankees with George Steinbrenner, his rep vacillated based on the performance with the team. When they were losing, he was an autocratic jerk that impinged on the team's ability to win -- when they had the winning run he becomes this lovable nostalgic figure who just wants to win real bad and will do whatever it takes to do it.

For Danny the story is there if and hopefully when the Redskins start winning consistently and its actually somewhat similar to Steinbrenner. The overzealous young owner has finally matured, backed off micro managing the operation, gave the FO and coach every resource they need to win and the team finally found success.

As for fan loyalty, yeah to each their own, but IMO you don't trade team loyalty like switching shirts and if you do you aren't that loyal to begin with. For myself being a Redskins fan is deep rooted and intertwined with memories of the past and current passion for them winning. It's way too intense for it to be dampened by Snyder's lack of PR savvy. And though am far from a Snyder fan, I do think he has bad instincts, and lacks the guts generally to face the music with the media unlike Jerry Jones, he does seem to have redeeming qualities.