A Very Serious Question for ASF and Others: Why Don't You Walk Away?

[zoony]

I really don't get the "well, if he'd won 3 superbowls, would you still hate him?" nonsense.

If Hitler hadn't killed 10 million people would he have been a good leader? :doh:

You know, there's something to be said for the outcome of a situation being a function of the process. I think the relevant slang is "out of ****, comes ****"

So is the question, if you could mine diamonds and gold out of a pile of ****, would you cease to dislike ****? Well, I guess. Sure.

[HailGreen28]

That seems like a convinient argument to me ASF. You are hedging your bets.....saying he will never build a winner, but if he does it will be IN SPITE of himself. You can't have it both ways, IMO. Either stick by your guns and say the Redskins will never win until Snyder sells or dies or leave open the possibility that you could be wrong. But to say both things in one breath seems easy to me.

Why not? The Yankees won some championships when Steinbrenner was his worst. But It's a fair statement that we're extremely unlikely to win a Superbowl if Danny doesn't change.

If, god willing, we win a Superbowl with Danny in the owner's box, it'll probably be because one of two things happen: 1. Danny changed. He actually seems to have done well this season where it counts, letting the adults handle football matters. Let's hope this isn't a brief hiatus like Martyball was.

2. We get players and coaches so good they can win despite inept moves from Danny. I hope we have some in place now.

I think you're presenting a false dilemma, kleese. It's indisputable that as far as football matters go, Danny's been a horrible hands-on manager. I hope he sells the team, or changes. All the more credit to the team, if he doesn't change and they win . I hope I live long enough to see it happen.

[theTruthTeller]

Doesn't the issue come down to this - if you are a fan and your team sucks for a prolonged time, you should just shut up and root for your team. If you don't love everyone in the organization, there are 31 other teams. If you think the owner is what is keeping the team from success - stfu and cheer, or go find another team. It's not just the owner - if the running back sucks, stfu and cheer or go find another team. If the QB is past his prime, stfu and pretend he's a superstar or go find another team. If your fatass NT skips all the summer workouts and can't pass a simple conditioning test, the stfu and pretend he's in top condition and can learn the nuances of a new defense in 5 days, or go find another team.

I wonder how many people would be on ES if you could only compliment the team and personnel.

[kleese]

What I want people to admit is that this really has nothing to do with Snyder's personal ethics. That is used against him because the team stinks. WhT I am saying is that if Snyder has lived his life to this point treating people poorly he isn't likely going to change. No amount of protesting is likely to change the fabric of a human being. The Christmas ghosts aren't going to come along and make Snyder see the error of his ways.

So what matters to you? Snyder the man or the team he puts on the field? Because if winning would cure what ails you as a fan, the all of these other criticisms don't really matter.

[gutlead74]

I can't speak for anyone else but for me it's addiction. I can't quit no matter what disappointments they bring.

[addicted]

The Redskins are family.

Why should I leave my family?

Exactly, Look if some people can't understand this after all of the years of embarrassment and disappointment then you really don't understand any of us

[Boss_Hogg]

I think a great number of fans HAVE walked away, and they're currently wearing black and gold. UGH.

Fine with me. They are probably the same fools that cheer while we are on offense.

[Hitman21ST]

Honestly, I'd rather NOT have them then. My only regret is that they've defected to a team who has the organizational structure to basically be constantly competitive. Actually, that might be a plus, because we won't get those fans back some day.

Says the guy with the player in Black and Gold in his sig

Love ya, Conn

[TheDane]

What I want people to admit is that this really has nothing to do with Snyder's personal ethics. That is used against him because the team stinks. WhT I am saying is that if Snyder has lived his life to this point treating people poorly he isn't likely going to change. No amount of protesting is likely to change the fabric of a human being. The Christmas ghosts aren't going to come along and make Snyder see the error of his ways.

So what matters to you? Snyder the man or the team he puts on the field? Because if winning would cure what ails you as a fan, the all of these other criticisms don't really matter.

Obviously, winning matters to me. If we win a Super Bowl, will I be more likely to ignore Dan Snyder? I'm not sure. I'd like to say yes, I'll ignore Snyder. But more likely, I'll say we won in spite of Snyder. And I'll probably hem, haw, and apologize to my non-Redskins friends for being Super Bowl champions with an ass of an owner.

I'm also not sure that Snyder is capable of forming a Franchise that builds a consistent contender. Companies tend to take the character of their chief officers. And to continue the Company theme: at the end of the day, Mike Shanahan is equivalent to a Plant manager. Bruce Allen is the VP in charge of Plant Operations and Personnel. They're still running only a part of the Company, and they are below Corporate, which sets the tone, and which is dominated by Snyder and his ideology.

Corporate strength starts at the C-Level. There's our problem.

[TimmySmith]

Why not? The Yankees won some championships when Steinbrenner was his worst.

This statement is arguable. Fact is the Yankees went 18 years between Championships BECAUSE of Steinbrenner. The Championship they won in '78 and then in '96 were basically because he left the team alone and allowed them to build a nucleus from within. Snyder's FA thumbprint is still all over this team.

A better question to Snyder supporters is why to they consider the Skins and Snyder to set. As if it must be a necessity to like a team's owner in order to support the team.

[thebluefood]

While I agree with many of the dissenters in the thread (about the Redskins being in the blood, not really agreeing with Snyder's moves, etc.) I have to say that I feel myself detaching myself slowly from the Redskins.

I left the D.C. area just after my 12 birthday and I've been living here in North Carolina for 7 and a half years. While we will see Redskins games from time to time, this is the Panthers' market and they get precedence over the 'Skins. That means I don't get to see the Redskins on T.V. too often and I can't pick up any of the Redskins Radio Network stations with my radio. So, I'll take a nap when the game is supposed to be on and I'll usually wake up in time to see the fourth quarter score. If the Redskins are winning, I feel great. If they're losing, well...it's almost expected. But, my emotions aren't as tied up with the Redskins as they once were; especially since I started attending college and threw my support behind the university's football team.

I realize that we are in for a rough few decades and it's a very real possibility that a whole generation of Redskins fans will know little more than losing and misery. I'm part of that generation. The Redskins went through a similar dry spell in the 50s and 60s, but at least George Preston Marshall was aging by then.

I love the Redskins, no doubt. I probably always will, but I don't feel the same attachment to them as I did as a kid.

I will say that the restaurant analogy is a little misleading. I don't know many people that feel as strongly about certain restaurants as they do sports teams. For many of them, it's something that's passed on from generation to generation. If your favorite dive starts serving crappy food, you can go across the street and find a better one. The Redskins, though, are imprinted on my DNA.

[Vilandil Tasardur]

I just really think that a lot of it boils down not to championships, but to making it fun. Michael Vick never won a superbowl in Atl, but the old quote was always "week in and week out, he's worth the ticket price." Colts fans before they finally got over the hump? Manning made every season a treat to watch, made it worth it. Pats fans this year? Should they had a disappointing divisional loss to a big rival, but on the whole the season was incredibly fun for them.

That's all I ask for Snyder. When Sean Taylor was on this team, I never cared about wins and losses. We could have been 3-12 and I would have paid face value for a ticket to that final game because there was a 95% chance of Sean making a play worth the price of admission. Some crazy, leaping interception 15 feet in the air. Or the kind of hit that you thought would kill a man. Or tackling a RB with his pinky finger while being blocked by 4 defenders. Sean was worth it! Now? Not so much.

That's why fans are willing to trade two first rounders for Jay Cutler or Ochocinco or Lance Briggs. Are these good moves? Hell no. But the fans are eager for something worth the price of admission. We want a playmaker, because we crave Trent Green lighting the league up. We crave Santana going for 1500 yards. We crave Lavar ending Aikman's career. None of those seasons amounted to anything at all, but they were fun as hell because our players played inspired football and were playmakers.

[thebluefood]

Actually, I'd prefer to see a bunch of no-names win Super Bowls; but that's just me.

[HailGreen28]

This statement is arguable. Fact is the Yankees went 18 years between Championships BECAUSE of Steinbrenner. The Championship they won in '78 and then in '96 were basically because he left the team alone and allowed them to build a nucleus from within. Snyder's FA thumbprint is still all over this team.

A better question to Snyder supporters is why to they consider the Skins and Snyder to set. As if it must be a necessity to like a team's owner in order to support the team.

How about "Steinbrenner's money" won them titles? A distinction that can't apply to us with the salary cap.

You're right about thumbprint. ASF's info on how Danny conducted Ryan Clark's negotiations is depressing.

You nailed the last point, IMO. I sure as hell never rooted for the "Washington Snyders". Especially before he bought the team. Hope I'm still alive when Snyder's gone.

[Master Blaster]

If your life revolves around what 53 men do on 16 Sundays throughout the year, you should spend more time on your family/career/hobbies.

[SkinsFTW]

The purpose of an analogy is to explain something. What I explained to you is that the America analogy is closer to the truth for me than your analogy. I was not attempting to argue that the two relationships, citizenship and fandom, were exactly the same.

The America analogy is exactly perfect in this argument. If some guy from Korea comes on a US debate message board and tells us that America sucks, the president is a doofus and that we'll never be a great country again what would 99.9% of the Americans do?

Exactly the same thing we do here when Eagles, Cowboys, Giants, Steelers, Seahawks, etc. fans come in here talking their crap. Even if we know our country is ran by morons, is blowing a large % of our income on interest payments to foreign governments and is fighting wars all over the globe with no end in sight, we still defend the country exactly like we defend the Redskins. Hell, actually I'd say that some fans go even further defending the team than they would their own country.

Now are there any message boards around for restaurants where 100K people debate every little detail down to the color of the napkins and silverware used and haters get run out if they come in and say Outback Steakhouse sucks, SoandSo is the best ever? LOL

[Stophovr6]

If your life revolves around what 53 men do on 16 Sundays throughout the year, you should spend more time on your family/career/hobbies.

Actually my life does revolve around my career/family/friends. This is supposed to be a fun distraction that has turned into a debacle of epic proportions.

[Conn]

Says the guy with the player in Black and Gold in his sig

Love ya, Conn

Damn! College players don't count!

[bulldog]

a bad owner can rob a team of its fan base over time. it's not that fans just stop watching, but the heightened interest that fans show on Sunday morning for a 1pm game just gets sapped.

you can look around at teams where the ownership has been very poor, teams like the old Bidwill Cardinals and the current Buffalo Bills.

fans have just withdrawn.

[MumboSauce]

I wish folks could stay calm and not get all in a bunch. I think the OP did his best to convey his opinion, thinking, and pov without being incendiary, combative or much pot stirring. To the OP, people are just different in how they deal with and feel about matters. If you can compartmentalize and separate one entity from the other(Redskins the players/team coaching, on field, etc. vs Redskins the ownership brass, as a business and it's relations as it pertains to it's clientele) that's good.

For many, it's just not that simple, they see it and feel it as a whole, not one part here and one part there...it's the whole thing...a once proud franchise they feel very passionately about. In the end I think both sides, those that feel as you do, and the others that can't stand Snyder are entitled and neither are anymore or less a fan because of it.

I personally feel it all trickles down and they aren't mutually exclusive. Enjoy the parts of it you can, and there isn't a whole lot these days, but expect and demand more. I wouldn't spend so much negative energy in hate mode granted, but I understand..I waiver from one side to the other..of being withdrawn at times, and being passionate and disappointed at others. The love of the Burgundy and Gold just runs deep..So I hope Snyder gets it right because like you said he isn't going anywhere. I also feel when this Franchise is a winner it will be in spite of Snyder not because of. The best he can do is let the coach and gm do their jobs and stay out of it for the most part and not get in the way.

[bulldog]

I don't think it's a coincidence that the two teams playing in the Super Bowl today have ownership structures that add to stability rather than take away from it with negative energy.

You know why newspapers in Pittsburgh don't write rag articles on the Rooneys? Because they don't act like jerks and give people cause to relate negative stories about them.

[Koolblue13]

If I walk away it's because of all the filthy criminals in the league and Goodell welcoming them back with open arms. It's really getting hard for me, living in iggle territory. I passionately have a hate for Vick and how our legal system has allowed him to go back to the mountain and the league placed him right back on top of it. Now Rapistberger is playing to be the top QB in the league? I'm not watching. First SB I've missed my entire life.

Snyder being a crap person and a typical big businessman, doesn't bring a warm feeling to my heart, but his stepping back and Shanny and Co saying they want to bring in "good people who are excellent football players" gives me a ton of hope, that we will have a team we can take pride in, even in spite of the owner. Perhaps he will learn from what having "good" people around, will do for a "team".

[Jumbo]

My views parallele bulldog on this matter in every post he's made. Dan Snyder just seems wired up in a way that desptie his professed love for this team, he has consistently been one of biggest negative factors and even now with his assumed and stated ever-increasing withdrawl from operations, he once again if featureed in a non-Team instigated and suspect (as in wisdom per the franchise's best interests) controversy. Keep in m ind, however, The ES/Redskins-FO love affair began (to the best of my knowledge) when Swanson became so enamored of Art going after Nunzio at WaPO and the crowd here on ES cheered and celebrated those events. But it would appear that was the beginning of the escalation of the Redskins vs DC media feud, the fruits of whch continue to be a distraction (and I'm no defender of the DC media on this matter). Now, just to examine these views with due scrutiny, I have no way of having an accurate rating of just how much these shenanigans really do affect play on the field--I suspect not as much as we think by a mile--but it sure affects the fan base.

[kleese]

Bulldog,

I totally agree with your above post- where there is smoke there's fire; Snyder has probably earned well over half of the negative press he received. But he is not a political leader or the president of the school board; I don't believe a revolt can stop or change him and I don't think it should. It's a free country; he bought the team and it's his right to be a jerk. Its my right to walk away or continue supporting the team he owns. Engaging in smear campaigns and protests just stoops to a level I don't want to be at; it's just my point of view and I don't think anyone is in the wrong for doing otherwise. But I do believe it is a waste of time and energy.

[aREDSKIN]

My views parallele bulldog on this matter in every post he's made. Dan Snyder just seems wired up in a way that desptie his professed love for this team, he has consistently been one of biggest negative factors and even now with his assumed and stated ever-increasing withdrawl from operations, he once again is featureed in a non-team instigated and suspect (as in wisdom per the franchise's best interests) controversy. Keep in m ind, however, The ES/Redskins-FO love affair began (to the best of my knowledge) when Swanson became so enamored of Art going after Nunzio at WaPO and the crowd here on ES cheered and celebrated those events. But it would appear that was the beginning of the escalation of the Redskins vs DC media feud, the fruits of whch continue to be a distraction (and I'm no defender of the DC media on this matter). Now, just to examine these views with due scrutiny, I have no way of having an accurate rating of just how much these shenanigans really do affect play on the field--I suspect not as much as we think by a mile--but it sure affects the fan base.

The Art-Len Pasquerelli thread was just classic too.