A Very Serious Question for ASF and Others: Why Don't You Walk Away?

[respectgibbs]

Dan's latest antics to sue a newspaper just put me over the edge. Canceling season tickets this year.

He's oblivious to the perception he portrays when he sues a newspaper. It just so petty, and he doesn't understand. He's lost.

[Destino]

Go become a bandwagon fan of the Steelers, or whomever else is on top right now in wins or popularity.

If every fan that didn't like Dan Snyder left for other teams FedEx field would be empty and skins games would be blacked out. Lucky for you and Dan, NFL allegiance doesn't work like the free market or the skins would be out of business.

[Elessar78]

Trust me. I've contemplated this many times. And in all honesty, after leaving the DC area and having extreme difficulty seeing Skins games... I've pretty much checked out. I have not gone on and supported another team because I have no reason to. I deem myself an "NFL fan" these days. So why do I hang out in a Redskins' message board? Aw shucks, I find the people on here entertaining particularly the Tailgate.

As the OP said, Life is Short. I don't know what it says about society but people put more allegiance into their football team than their marriages and families. To me, the social contract between a fan and his team is pretty clear. I'll support the team but the team has to put it's best effort in creating a winning product. I don't care about the wins, but the effort matters. To me, the gross incompetence, ego displayed by ownership over so many years is not what I would deem "best effort". It's to the point now that I'm conflicted about the Skins' winning a Super Bowl under Snyder because it would validate everything he's done.

[WhoRUSupposed2Be]

Asked already today, and answered twice.

Snyder is incapable of building a winning franchise. He is the cancer. The team will win only when he is in remission, or when he is defeated.

If Mike Shanahan and Bruce Allen succeed, they will win despite Snyder, with Snyder in remission.

Dave McKenna and fan revolts are like aggressive cancer treatments. If the host is sufficiently toxic to the cancer, the cancer may someday run its course and disappear.

Like any given Sunday, the outcome is always in doubt. I'm rooting for the home team.

This team will win despite Snyder... all he will do from here on out is sign the checks but he'll never be able to take credit for anything.

If he wants redemption, he'll get it through winning...

Snyder is here to stay unless he passes away from some natural cause, so get used to it. I just want the man to sign the damn checks and stay of the hell off the football field when it concerns the well-being of the football team... notice I said "well-being"

[Rocky21]

The Redskins are not a public trust. They are a private business.

Kleese,

I have nothing but respect for your posts on this site and your love of football. But you know who disagrees with your point here? Dan Snyder.

Snyder said "it may be [my] money, but it's the fans' team. It's the fans' team, and we have the responsibility to try to do the right thing."

http://voices.washingtonpost.com/dcsportsbog/2011/01/dc_sports_owners_rooting_for_e.html#more

And as to your point in general, I was a fan of the team before the current owner was in place and I'll be a fan of the team when he no longer owns it. He has attempted to commercialize every aspect of our Redskins fanhood, ****ed up the game day expereice beyond all recognition and continues to bungle the stewardship of this organization but I will not allow him to take my love of the Redskins away. Ever.

[SprintBomb]

I dont really worry about Skins fans changing teams because of Snyder. The thing is, why would any kid growing up now want to be a Skins fan? I am lucky enough to remember the last 2 SBs that we won. Imagine all you know of the Redskins is what Dan Snyder has put on the field. I wouldnt want to be a fan of that. The only thing that keeps me from changing teams are the memories I have of all the amazing seasons and amazing players I watched while I was growing up.

[TD_washingtonredskins]

The Redskins are included in some of my earliest memories. Nothing can change that. It's part of who I am.

That made me think about this a little bit. I think my biggest struggle as an adult fan (I was 5, 10, and 15 when the Skins won their 3 Super Bowls) is that it's tough to reconcile the current franchise to the one I grew up rooting for. The colors, name, city, etc. is the same, but almost everything else is different. So, here I am supporting a bunch of uniforms. That's just how it is I suppose.

I have the feeling that, even if we turned it around and became a great team again, championship seasons would feel completely different this time around. Even the league is so much different now. The coaches, players, etc. back in the 1980s seemed like a part of the community since players stuck around. Now, the league is transient that I'm not sure even winning 3 more Super Bowls would compare to the first 3 I witnessed.

[authentic]

That made me think about this a little bit. I think my biggest struggle as an adult fan (I was 5, 10, and 15 when the Skins won their 3 Super Bowls) is that it's tough to reconcile the current franchise to the one I grew up rooting for. The colors, name, city, etc. is the same, but almost everything else is different. So, here I am supporting a bunch of uniforms. That's just how it is I suppose.

I have the feeling that, even if we turned it around and became a great team again, championship seasons would feel completely different this time around. Even the league is so much different now. The coaches, players, etc. back in the 1980s seemed like a part of the community since players stuck around. Now, the league is transient that I'm not sure even winning 3 more Super Bowls would compare to the first 3 I witnessed.

Would you against them changing the uniforms? Not being smart at all...Just asking because, its something that i've thought about since Bruce and Shanny took over. I think it be a way to symbolize a true detachment from yester-year. We haven't been competative in nearly 20 years. Some members on this board weren't born when they last won the SB. So what's really the use in trying to hold on to that tradition? I say they should keep the colors, but totally & permanently change the uni's.

[TD_washingtonredskins]

Would you against them changing the uniforms? Not being smart at all...Just asking because, its something that i've thought about since Bruce and Shanny took over. I think it be a way to symbolize a true detachment from yester-year. We haven't been competative in nearly 20 years. Some members on this board weren't born when they last won the SB. So what's really the use in trying to hold on to that tradition? I say they should keep the colors, but totally & permanently change the uni's.

Not one bit. I think they are due for a face lift and a way to completely turn the page and start a new chapter. I'm kind of type-A in my personality, so for me it would be even an easier way to put my childhood Redskins in a box as a memory and move forward with my adult Redskins. I'd love a complete break from everything in the past (even Gibbs being a spokesperson for the franchise at times) and a real effort to move forward independent of any past success that occurred under a different owner, front-office, and coaching staff.

[NavyDave]

Why would I walk away from my team because the current owner is a Major Screwup? If you mean not buying merchandise or season tickets in 2011 and just watch the game on Tv then yeah I'm doing that this year.

The Danny own the team for now however he and other owners makes money only because of the Fans the same applies to the TV money since the networks banks on us to watch our team and purchase products aired in commercials. Yeah these greedy bastiges have tv money to strong arm the players this year even if it means the fans do not have games to watch.

Who doesn't think owners like Danny would have no problem with a lockout to pocket billions instead of sharing with those who put themselves at risk on every play?

I really wish there was a WikiLeaks on the true amount of money these owners have instead of the creative accounting they are displaying.

[Rudechain]

Kleese I have to agree.

I am a fan of the Washington Redskins and my following the team is one of my favorite hobbies. But it is just a hobby, even though I have cheered the highs and be-moaned the lows, they have remained a cherished hobby for several years. Some would say my hobby has bordered on obsession at times with my following the team's roster moves, press releases and games.

But it is just a small part of my life and is something I choose to do. I have other hobbies that I enjoy but I choose to take time to follow the Washington Redskins. I still follow them because I still find enjoyment in following the team, not the owner. To me, there is no reason to invest all that energy into developing angst and negativity. Life is to short and my time is to valuable for me to waste. I have enough stress in my life and I will be dammed if I allow something I enjoy to be dominated by negativity.

The ownership of the team really makes no difference to me. What the owner did ten or twelve years ago has no bearing on how I feel about the Washington Redskins. Some lawsuit filed has no bearing on how I feel about the Washington Redskins. What some guy did with some trees has no bearing on how I feel about the Washington Redskins.

Now we have had some bad times and some decisions made have had a bearing on the "on field product", but I still have decided to devote time to my hobby of following the Washington Redskins. Despite my years of following the team, it is realistically a hobby. Despite the love and passion I feel for the Washington Redskins it is essentially still just a hobby. What occurs in the day to day operations at Redskins Park has do direct effect on my daily life other than the time I decide to invest. Personally I think its silly to devote energy and time devoted to my hobby in a negative capacity. Life and time short, why befuddle something I enjoy with negative tensions over something I have no control over? It's just not worth it..

[Schizlor]

Simple. Dan Snyder did not found the Redskins. They are not his creation. He doesn't own them in that sense. He is a caretaker. A steward. I had been cheering for the Redskins LONG before he took ownership of this franchise. Why should WE have to leave?

That's the sentiment, and why everyone is up in arms. Why don't we walk away? To put it bluntly, in first-grade terms: Because I was here first.

The team isn't going anywere. The fanbase isn't going anywhere. All we can do, in response to the HORRENDOUS way he's managed our franchise this past decade +, is to make his experience as owner as miserable for him as it is for us fans having to watch this trainwreck year in and year out. Look at what's happened in Egypt. Terrible rulers deserve to be revolted against. Why don't the Egyptians just leave and move to Lybia if they don't like it? WHY? Because it's their goddamned country, that's why.

To just say, "Hey, it's his company, if you don't like it just don't give him your business" is too simplistic. What you're asking real fans to do is to stop watching football, or stop caring about the NFL. It's not as easy as switching restaruants. Switching teams is a repugnant practice and those who do should be ashamed of themselves. Anyone who cares that little about their sports team that they can just cast them aside when they start performing poorly and pick a new team, wouldn't feel strongly enough about the team to abandon them in the first place. They'd just become apathetic towards the sport in general, and stop watching. In essence, that's what your asking die-hard fans to do too. "If you don't like the Redskins owner/franchise and you don't want to switch teams, then walk away." Absolutely not. As I've said before, my hatred of Dan Snyder will never exceed my love for the Washington Redskins.

"If you don't like the team, stop watching them. Stop going to games. Stop caring about the Redskins, or football in general, if it's such a negative experience for you." That's a perposterous notion for any real sports fan.

---------- Post added February-7th-2011 at 12:28 PM ----------

Navy Dave that is an EPIC post count BTW. I just did the math....that's an average of almost 9 posts a day, EVERY day, for 11 straight years.

That's a REAL fan!

[Coolio47]

The thing is, why would any kid growing up now want to be a Skins fan?... Imagine all you know of the Redskins is what Dan Snyder has put on the field. I wouldnt want to be a fan of that.

It's a *****. But you get used to it. :doh:

But don't ask me about logic. I became a Redskins fan growing up in VT when I have a Father who is a Giants fan and a brother who is a Cowboys fan.

So far, my fondest memory is the 2005 season, specifically the Monday Night Miracle @ Dallas.

[Rocky21]

Simple. Dan Snyder did not found the Redskins. They are not his creation. He doesn't own them in that sense. He is a caretaker. A steward. I had been cheering for the Redskins LONG before he took ownership of this franchise. Why should WE have to leave?

That's the sentiment, and why everyone is up in arms. Why don't we walk away? To put it bluntly, in first-grade terms: Because I was here first.

The team isn't going anywere. The fanbase isn't going anywhere. All we can do, in response to the HORRENDOUS way he's managed our franchise this past decade +, is to make his experience as owner as miserable for him as it is for us fans having to watch this trainwreck year in and year out. Look at what's happened in Egypt. Terrible rulers deserve to be revolted against. Why don't the Egyptians just leave and move to Lybia if they don't like it? WHY? Because it's their goddamned country, that's why.

To just say, "Hey, it's his company, if you don't like it just don't give him your business" is too simplistic. What you're asking real fans to do is to stop watching football, or stop caring about the NFL. It's not as easy as switching restaruants. Switching teams is a repugnant practice and those who do should be ashamed of themselves. Anyone who cares that little about their sports team that they can just cast them aside when they start performing poorly and pick a new team, wouldn't feel strongly enough about the team to abandon them in the first place. They'd just become apathetic towards the sport in general, and stop watching. In essence, that's what your asking die-hard fans to do too. "If you don't like the Redskins owner/franchise and you don't want to switch teams, then walk away." Absolutely not. As I've said before, my hatred of Dan Snyder will never exceed my love for the Washington Redskins.

I really liked this well thought out post and agree with the sentiment. Wish there were more like these here on ES.

[tonyriggins]

Instead of the fans walking away I think that Snyder should go! I know he wont but us fans have the right to criticize him all we want. I know the homers on this board dont want to hear anything negative about the Redskins or thier owner, but why are you listening to all this crap? Why dont you homers find another team?

[kleese]

I'd say about 40% of you actually understand what I'm trying to say; quite possibly because I didn't do a sufficient job explaining myself. But just to reiterate:

I love the Redskins as much today as I did 25 years ago. I never miss a game and I don't see that changing anytime soon.

MY experience is the same ad it's always; Snyder has done nothing to lessen my personal fan experience other than not producing a winner. And if my experience is based soley on wins and losses than nothing else matters anyway. Snyder being a jerk or suing a paper has ZERO affect on my experience. I feel no need to stop buying tickets, merchandise, etc.

Jack Kent Cooke didn't dictate my experience and neither does Snyder. It's just that the former was better at his job.

---------- Post added February-7th-2011 at 02:15 PM ----------

I'm trying to nail down your position.

Who is engaging in smear campaigns? McKenna or McKenna and posters who side with him in this lawsuit?

Are fan protests equal to smear campaigns in sinking to a "lower level?"

Is your stance on this on a practical -- "waste of time and energy" or a moral base -- "sinking to a lower level?"

Honestly I'm not sure I have a "position" Oldfan. I don't think there right or wrongs in this discussion. I'm not trying to convince anyone of anything. I just think my point of view on this matter is something I really haven't seen verbalized and I wanted to share.

To try and answer your question I think I approach it from BOTH a practical and moral standpoint. If what people want to change about Snyder is his heart and his personality, then I think that is a waste of time from a practical standpoint. If they just want him to step aside from day to day football stuff...well he's already done that. If people don't believe that, then I'm not sure how Snyder proves it. Ban himself from Redskins Park?

From a deeper level, I simply don't understand how the Snyder/McKenna thing affects peoples experiences one bit. It's a stupid pissing contest and it has nothing to do with how I view the Redskins or how much I enjoy Sunday afternoons. Neither does what Snyder did 15 years ago. To engage in "hating" Snyder seems trivial to me- I think people have convinced themselves that Snyder has "ruined" their experience when IMO no one can affect your experience if you don't let them.

[brutality]

Umm, Snyder is a pretty young. I'm going to ask my kids to "ride it out" until things get better when they're like 50? Remember, we can't go find "new people to fund it". I'll always root for the Skins. But my kids are losing interest in going to the games or even watching them on TV. Their best friends in school are Ravens fans and Steelers fans and Cowboys fans. So my kids are just as interested in those teams as the Skins. And I don't blame them. When I was 12, most of my friends in school or in the neighborhood were diehard Redskins fans and that became part of our culture. No so any more at all, even here in northern virginia just miles from Redskins Park.

We may want to think of it as "our team". But it's really his team. And it's getting harder and harder to justify financing his team (which is what we all are doing when we watch, buy jerseys, buy tickets, etc.) Snyder doesn't finance the team. He COLLECTS money from the fanbase. It's the only thing that he makes money on now that all his other businesses have turned to **** because of his own massive insecurities.

I don't think your kids should be obligated to be a Redskins fan anyway lol. Sure I picked it up from my family, but it wasn't like they forced it upon me. Let your kids be fans of whatever team they want. My family watched the games and I watched it with them and that's what I grew to love. Personally I'm interested in sports in general, and I probably know just as much about other teams as I do the Redskins cause I'm always keeping up with what goes on in sports. I just don't support, those teams and root for them on Sundays although I have certain players I do follow and like. I'm just saying a real fan doesn't just up and switch their team. There's more to being a fan than just liking a winning team, otherwise your just a bandwagon fan. I'm a Redskins fan, and that's not gonna change just cause I think Snyder can't handle being an owner. I don't look at it terms of financing him anyway even if my money does go to him, so I'm not looking for a reason to justify that. Ownership changes hands, players come and go, it's kind of hard to define what you are actually supporting when it comes to a team. I would say the culture, but it seems like some people only have interest in the culture when it's a winning one. Like life, teams have their ups and downs, and most people don't just give up on life, so I'm not just going to give up on the Redskins. Like you said, snyder is pretty young, so maybe he'll figure it out even if I don't have high hopes for that because of his track record. A lot comes with age.

[Meatsnack]

When I was a kid, I rooted for Billy Kilmer. I still have my kid's size Kilmer jersey. A lot of kids in my neighborhood were Dallass fans because Dallass won. They didn't care that the Dallass organization was full of prancing idiots who shot from the lip and would take anything that made their brains go fizz because they won. I always appreciated the blue-collar aspect of the Redskins and the hard working, no-nonsense style of the Over the Hill Gang. Over time, the blue-collar, hard working nature of the team found its zenith in the Hogs and the championship runs they sparked.

I never lost the felling that, my team, the Redskins, played the game the right way. Hard nosed and physical on the field and a bunch of guys you could relate to off of it. The "character" of the team was that it was full of guys who respected the game and each other. You could trust them to watch your house when you went on vacation - if not trust them to hold your beer. Contrasted to the "North Dallas 40" atmosphere of our hated rivals, the NYC snottiness of Giants fans, the knuckle-dragging Morlocks from Philly, and the afterthoughts from St. Louis, I had a real "center" to attach myself to the team.

Jack Kent Cooke was never in the spotlight unless he was holding a Lombardi. The coaches and GMs ran the team and they were who you saw and heard. Cooke maintained a family atmosphere around Redskins park. The employees there felt like they were a part of something and if JKC needed people to cover for his hobbies, whatever they might or might not have been, they seemed happy enough to do it. If there were any skeletons in JKC's closet, they drove a Jaguar through the city in full view.

By contrast, Snyder has turned the backbone of the team into people afraid for their livelihoods. The leaks of information when he took over the team were the start of media war with the local papers. A war he continues to lose. He has turned the team into rented loyalties and half-efforts for a paycheck. Contrasted with the Packers and Steelers homegrown teams and high intensity play, it is epecially apparent. Nothing he has been alleged to do behind the wheel of Snyder communications is inconsistent with what he has done as owner of the Redksins to date - from firing people without cause to suing grandmothers.

So, really, what I am rooting for is a memory. Snyder has robbed the team of much of any character at all - it is neither fish no fowl. I can root for players on the team, from London and Cornelius Griffien and Sean T. But what is the nature of the team now? We don't bring in enough young players to establish a stable core to define it. The constant rotation of older players who do 2-3 year tours of duty coming from somewhere else all have a different way of doing things and there isn't an organizational culture to bring them into.

Organizations take on the characterisitcs of their leadership. Snyder isn't the Devil. He has shown that he can be very generous to indivivuals close to him. He has also shown callousness and a completely amoral approach to doing business. He is a man without a center, compass or direction as is his organization. All in all, he has robbed much of what made the team attractive to me in my younger days. But, I can't forget those days or that team. I don't root for team failure to spite Snyder. I just really wish that he would give me back something that he took. Pride not just in what the team accomplished but in how they accomplished it.

[Schizlor]

I'd say about 40% of you actually understand what I'm trying to say; quite possibly because I didn't do a sufficient job explaining myself. But just to reiterate:

I love the Redskins as much today as I did 25 years ago. I never miss a game and I don't see that changing anytime soon.

MY experience is the same ad it's always; Snyder has done nothing to lessen my personal fan experience other than not producing a winner. And if my experience is based soley on wins and losses than nothing else matters anyway. Snyder being a jerk or suing a paper has ZERO affect on my experience. I feel no need to stop buying tickets, merchandise, etc.

Jack Kent Cooke didn't dictate my experience and neither does Snyder. It's just that the former was better at his job.

.

If it were that simple (just trying real hard, but being mediocre), then I'd totally agree with you. I hate what Snyder has done to this team, yet I still frequent 2-4 games a year and watch every single game, regardless of whether its a meaningful (Dec) game or not.

But his malfeasance goes deeper. Beginning from his very acquisition of the team. He strong-armed his way in here. He has a history of making decisions that are not only anathema to the players, but to the fans as well. His only focus is making money. Even when he says, "I want to win more than anyone", I truly believe he is striving for that goal because he knows a winner will increase his revenues enormously. If you posited the question,"Would you run the Redskins at a deficit for 5 years if you knew year 6 meant a Superbowl win?"...he would say 'No'. I honestly believe that.

Don't you remember 25 years ago? This was a blue collar team, much like the Steelers. Riggo, The Hogs, the Over-the-Hill gang....the idea of being a Redskin was, you aren't the youngest, or fastest, or most flashy...by by god you get the job done. Players like Riggins, Monk, Theismann, and the Hogs embodied this spirit. Our '91 team absolutely SHREDDED the NFL that year...and yet we were one of the most, if not all time most 'under the radar' 14-2 team that ever was. That's just the way the Redskins were. And they were worshiped in this town, as was Gibbs.

Fast forward to this century. What you have is basically a pip-squeak, wide-eyed, too-big-for-his-britches 'fan', who, through arguably questionable business practices, came into enough money to buy his favorite team. He purports to be a "real" redskins fan, and promised to restore the glory of a once-proud franchise. Problem is, he has no idea where that Redskin pride originated. Which is how you find this once blue collar team now rife with over-paid, past-their-prime free agents, and enormously bloated contracts for sub-par talent. Meanwhile, true Redskin grit players, players like London Fletcher, are treated like second-class citizens. When you think how much Fletcher earns per year compared to Haynesworth, and how much effort London puts in despite this team sucking year in and year out, it makes me want to puke. I continually feel like calling some of these guys up and apologizing personally. The owner sure as hell isn't going to do it.

Instead of doing what he promised us when he took over, he instantly set out to get into a "mine-is-bigger-than-your's" contest with Jerry Jones to see who could squeeze more revenue and total worth out of his new prize. So he installs huge Club Level sections with cigar bars, where "fans" watch a game from INSIDE the stadium on televisions sets, in climate-controlled lounges, puffing on Cohibas and sipping brandy from snifters, all to appease and attract corporate types who will spend more at the stadium than the blue collar fan. It's how you get "free" practice sessions where you actually have to pay for parking to the tune of $25. To watch them practice. It's how you get lawsuits against bankrupt season ticket holders who failed to uphold their "contract", even though he supposedly has thousands of people waiting to take ownership of said seats. It's why he instantly transformed Jack Kent Cooke Stadium into FedEx field immediately upon purchasing the team, to line his pockets with a few million more per year. If he could sew Geico and Pennzoil patches onto the player jerseys to squeeze out a few million more every season in ad revenue, he would.

The man single-handedly demolished the waiting list for the Skins, which at the time was maybe second only to the Packers waiting list. My friend joined the list in 2007 and now has seats in the 100's. I know people who joined that list in the late 80's that didn't even get offered a seat until the new stadium was built, and even then they had to languish in the 400s for years before being upgraded (really the 400s aren't bad seats, but still..) I get bombarded with calls from the front office looking to sell me a ticket package. Even since I was a little kid I dreamed of having season tix...and now, I don't even want them anymore. And that is just sad. And it's not performance based. It is hatred manifesting itself. We were awful from 1992 to 1998, but the season ticket list did not suffer nearly as bad as it has from 2001-2010. Suing fans for tens of thousands of dollars in unpaid season ticket contracts will surely help to turn that trend around.

It's not just a question of on-field performance. It is this callous disregard for the fans whenever money is involved. That, and his infantile need to protect his ego, that causes him to lash out at the media, create whole media outlets to tout his point of view (Red Zebra), ban signs from the stadium when people criticize him, sue old ladies for failure to pay massive 6-figure multi-year contracts at at time when the entire country is facing an economic apocalypse that comes around once or twice a century. He is a petulant child. He is like the annoying weakling at the neighborhood football game who brought the ball...who every time people protest his ineptitude he pulls the, "Im going to take my ball and go home then, so none of you can play! How do you like THAT!".

And the real betrayal here, is that he has made me ashamed of the Redskins. I cannot defend them in public. I will NEVER leave the team, or stop watching them, or stop representing them, but the sad fact is that I cannot defend them anymore. When co-workers or Dallass fans or others mock the Redskins, I used to get up in arms. Now I just go, "Yeah....you're right."

"Your owner is a JOKE!"

Yeah, you're right

"You guys are a laughing stock, you're worse than the Raiders, LOL!!"

Yeah.....you're right.

THAT is how Snyder has ruined my experience. I'll never not watch the Skins. I'll never become apathetic. I will never stop believing that no matter what, every single game we play we are capable of winning. But being 'Proud' of my team? Those days are long since past. That's why, to say, "Snyder has done nothing to lessen my personal fan experience", that is something I cannot agree with. I get the gist of your statement but what you are essentially trying to say is, we have 2 options. Either shut up and take what you get with a smile, or walk away, but don't keep on beating up the owner for what he's done to the team because it's his team and it's your choice as to whether or not you want to be a fan. I wish that were true, but being a fan is not really a choice for me anymore. My fate was decided the minute I watched the '83 Superbowl victory at age 4. I have no choice. Apathy for this team and for the NFL is not an option anymore. This team is in my blood, and I refuse to choose between "give up" and "shut up and take what you get", when a perfectly good option "demand more from the team and it's ownership" is out there. Snyder has done everything in his power to test the loyalty of Redskins fans over the past 10-15 years. He has made being a die-hard fan a masochistic endeavour. Not for the faint of heart. He will never affect my love for the Redskins, but he has certainly tried his damndest to destroy the prestige and fan experience of a once-proud NFL franchise.

---------- Post added February-7th-2011 at 05:05 PM ----------

When I was a kid, I rooted for Billy Kilmer. I still have my kid's size Kilmer jersey. A lot of kids in my neighborhood were Dallass fans because Dallass won. They didn't care that the Dallass organization was full of prancing idiots who shot from the lip and would take anything that made their brains go fizz because they won. I always appreciated the blue-collar aspect of the Redskins and the hard working, no-nonsense style of the Over the Hill Gang. Over time, the blue-collar, hard working nature of the team found its zenith in the Hogs and the championship runs they sparked.

I never lost the felling that, my team, the Redskins, played the game the right way. Hard nosed and physical on the field and a bunch of guys you could relate to off of it. The "character" of the team was that it was full of guys who respected the game and each other. You could trust them to watch your house when you went on vacation - if not trust them to hold your beer. Contrasted to the "North Dallas 40" atmosphere of our hated rivals, the NYC snottiness of Giants fans, the knuckle-dragging Morlocks from Philly, and the afterthoughts from St. Louis, I had a real "center" to attach myself to the team.

Jack Kent Cooke was never in the spotlight unless he was holding a Lombardi. The coaches and GMs ran the team and they were who you saw and heard. Cooke maintained a family atmosphere around Redskins park. The employees there felt like they were a part of something and if JKC needed people to cover for his hobbies, whatever they might or might not have been, they seemed happy enough to do it. If there were any skeletons in JKC's closet, they drove a Jaguar through the city in full view.

By contrast, Snyder has turned the backbone of the team into people afraid for their livelihoods. The leaks of information when he took over the team were the start of media war with the local papers. A war he continues to lose. He has turned the team into rented loyalties and half-efforts for a paycheck. Contrasted with the Packers and Steelers homegrown teams and high intensity play, it is epecially apparent. Nothing he has been alleged to do behind the wheel of Snyder communications is inconsistent with what he has done as owner of the Redksins to date - from firing people without cause to suing grandmothers.

So, really, what I am rooting for is a memory. Snyder has robbed the team of much of any character at all - it is neither fish no fowl. I can root for players on the team, from London and Cornelius Griffien and Sean T. But what is the nature of the team now? We don't bring in enough young players to establish a stable core to define it. The constant rotation of older players who do 2-3 year tours of duty coming from somewhere else all have a different way of doing things and there isn't an organizational culture to bring them into.

Organizations take on the characterisitcs of their leadership. Snyder isn't the Devil. He has shown that he can be very generous to indivivuals close to him. He has also shown callousness and a completely amoral approach to doing business. He is a man without a center, compass or direction as is his organization. All in all, he has robbed much of what made the team attractive to me in my younger days. But, I can't forget those days or that team. I don't root for team failure to spite Snyder. I just really wish that he would give me back something that he took. Pride not just in what the team accomplished but in how they accomplished it.

I agree with absolutely everything you just said, save one thing. I would never trust Riggo to "hold" my beer, LOL

[hail2skins]

To try and answer your question I think I approach it from BOTH a practical and moral standpoint. If what people want to change about Snyder is his heart and his personality, then I think that is a waste of time from a practical standpoint. If they just want him to step aside from day to day football stuff...well he's already done that. If people don't believe that, then I'm not sure how Snyder proves it. Ban himself from Redskins Park?

From a deeper level, I simply don't understand how the Snyder/McKenna thing affects peoples experiences one bit. It's a stupid pissing contest and it has nothing to do with how I view the Redskins or how much I enjoy Sunday afternoons. Neither does what Snyder did 15 years ago. To engage in "hating" Snyder seems trivial to me- I think people have convinced themselves that Snyder has "ruined" their experience when IMO no one can affect your experience if you don't let them.

Ed, if the Redskins were winning, most of this stuff would probably not be an issue to folks. But we're not, and thus stuff on the outside makes people wonder if these tendencies Snyder has bleed over to the decision-making processes he's made with the Skins. Now granted, the Redskins were not good in the few years between when Gibbs left the first time and when Snyder took over, and I don't think many people would've had a problem if Norv was let go after 1998 or even 1997. But Snyder is now on the fifth coach he has hired in 10 seasons. Think about that. We had Marty for one year. Spurrier walked away from millions after two. The hiring of Gibbs was applaudable but I think Dan was somehow naive enough to believe that a 64-year-old guy would stick around for a long time. Then the fiasco of finding a replacement for Gibbs. As Bulldog said, this is poor decision-making. And yes, Snyder has stepped back for the time being......but the statements he makes about "not having to be as involved when you have coaches like Joe Gibbs and Mike Shanahan" are a bit alarming. Someday he is going to have to fill the vacancy again. ane he's not necessarily going to have a coach with multiple Super Bowl rings available. Then what?

As far as it letting it all affect my enjoyment of the team, I think many of us still don't miss games and still look forward to those three hours each week on fall Sundays. But the way the team has been run in the past decade has caused me to look at the organization in a more cynical light. We just had the Packers win the Super Bowl and saw the pride on Mark Murphy and Ted Thompson's faces, and it harkened back to our memories of when JKC was given the trophy. We all look forward to the Redskins being in the same position as Green Bay was at 10 pm EST last night, but do any of us look forward to seeing that weasel that owns this club given the trophy?

[HailGreen28]

I'd say about 40% of you actually understand what I'm trying to say; quite possibly because I didn't do a sufficient job explaining myself. But just to reiterate:

I love the Redskins as much today as I did 25 years ago. I never miss a game and I don't see that changing anytime soon.

MY experience is the same ad it's always; Snyder has done nothing to lessen my personal fan experience other than not producing a winner. And if my experience is based soley on wins and losses than nothing else matters anyway. Snyder being a jerk or suing a paper has ZERO affect on my experience. I feel no need to stop buying tickets, merchandise, etc.

Jack Kent Cooke didn't dictate my experience and neither does Snyder. It's just that the former was better at his job.

OK, why do you like the Redskins, then?

[kleese]

Ed, if the Redskins were winning, most of this stuff would probably not be an issue to folks. But we're not, and thus stuff on the outside makes people wonder if these tendencies Snyder has bleed over to the decision-making processes he's made with the Skins. Now granted, the Redskins were not good in the few years between when Gibbs left the first time and when Snyder took over, and I don't think many people would've had a problem if Norv was let go after 1998 or even 1997. But Snyder is now on the fifth coach he has hired in 10 seasons. Think about that. We had Marty for one year. Spurrier walked away from millions after two. The hiring of Gibbs was applaudable but I think Dan was somehow naive enough to believe that a 64-year-old guy would stick around for a long time. Then the fiasco of finding a replacement for Gibbs. As Bulldog said, this is poor decision-making. And yes, Snyder has stepped back for the time being......but the statements he makes about "not having to be as involved when you have coaches like Joe Gibbs and Mike Shanahan" are a bit alarming. Someday he is going to have to fill the vacancy again. ane he's not necessarily going to have a coach with multiple Super Bowl rings available. Then what?

As far as it letting it all affect my enjoyment of the team, I think many of us still don't miss games and still look forward to those three hours each week on fall Sundays. But the way the team has been run in the past decade has caused me to look at the organization in a more cynical light. We just had the Packers win the Super Bowl and saw the pride on Mark Murphy and Ted Thompson's faces, and it harkened back to our memories of when JKC was given the trophy. We all look forward to the Redskins being in the same position as Green Bay was at 10 pm EST last night, but do any of us look forward to seeing that weasel that owns this club given the trophy?

Do I look "forward" to Snyder hoisting a trophy? Not necessarily, but honestly, I won't care either way. It certainly won't affect the level of joy or satisfaction I have from winning. That's where we differ I guess...your hatred for Snyder already has you pondering about how he may affect your enjoyment when we DO win. Snyder is a blip on my radar screen...he matters very little to me either way.

We have learned about his "weasel" tendencies because the team has been so bad. Again, no one would even bother with this digging if he was a bad dude that ran a good football operation. Do some goole searches on JKC and you'll find some not so nice things about him as well....but he was smart when it came to the team and no one really cared about him personally because they liked and respected the way he ran the Redskins.

I also find it unfair to pin all of our woes on Snyder and THEN say when we win it will be in spite of him. If this regime wins, it WILL be with guys he hired. And if he steps aside and let's them do their thing (which I thing he has done) then he has already done what many fans want....I also think he let Gibbs run the show for four years and would have let Gibbs coach forever if he wanted to.

The hatred for Snyder just makes some people illogical in their statements. Lots of consipracy theories that Snyder forced the McNabb deal to "make a splash" but does that mean he also was behind the drafting of Williams? The Fletcher FA signing? I just don't think it's fair to assume all bad moves are his doing and all good moves come from the football people. It's not "defending" him. It's just not logical.

I just want to win. I have never cared about parking spots, concourses, bathrooms, etc... none of it has EVER mattered to me. I have a problem with Snyder because he doesn't win. Nothing else. When he does, I won't have a problem with him anymore.

[stoney26]

Pretty much agree with everything in the OP.

[kleese]

OK, why do you like the Redskins, then?

Like many of you....I don't know the answer to that question. It was seemingly something I was born with. I honestly don't remember a time that I wasn't in love with the team...no memory at all of "choosing" them...it's just been that way from the beginning for me. I'm not from the area and neither of parents were Redskins fans....so I really don't know. But I do know that when I fell in love with them, I fell for "Redskins Nation" more than anything...the stands shaking, etc... of course I adored and idolized Gibbs and those teams, but my passion for the team was the same with Norv and everyone else who has followed.

I'm not as happy as a Skins fan now because they aren't good...not because our owner is a jerk. Now, maybe those things go hand in hand, but like I said, it's probably too late for him to stop being a jerk.

The Redskins mean so much more to me than any one man can "ruin." Not even close.

[hail2skins]

I'm not as happy as a Skins fan now because they aren't good...not because our owner is a jerk. Now, maybe those things go hand in hand......

And there's your answer Ed, and why ASF and others have made the posts since the WCP controversy started last week.

Again.......five coaches in 10 years. Not the hallmark of a good decision-maker.

And while I'm all for Wyllie's attempts to get Snyder out more in the media.......Dan, please stop with the "I've matured" line. You were 34 when you bought the team......most people are plenty mature by then.