The Official Washington Basketball Thread: Wizards, Mystics etc

[nuposse87]

For you to see his athleticism you actually have to watch him play.

Which I have, and there is nothing athletically amazing about his game. Any highlight dunks I've seen from him are of the "ho-hum" variety and usually set up by superior team play against lesser competition.

DX does not have official measurements for Zeller. They've got guesses and suspect measurements from things like Nike games and LeBron camps. If Zeller had such a weakness from short length, wouldn't it show up on the court in some way? He's had absolutely 0 problems getting his shots off and he gets a lot of blocks and steals.

Give me a citation for the first part, I did a quick google search couldn't find anything saying they're purposefully and wrongfully fudging numbers. Even if the measurement isn't official, I figure to be a helluva lot more close then your "official" assessment of him. Zeller's game is predicated on skill, and he's big enough for the college game where it wouldn't show up. He needs to add some weight in order to hold up on the next level, and ask yourself, do you honestly expect that he'd retain all of his supposed athleticism if he were to gain 15-20 lbs. Keep in mind he'll also be 21 the time NBA starts up, he isn't some 18 year who can easily put on weight, he can put on some, but I doubt his frame changes much...keeping him positional limbo. Lots of blocks and steals? He gets 1.4/1.3 respectively? If you're going to try to make some wild assertions try not lying through your mouth. Not to mention he less then 1 assist to TO ratio. Blackhole on offense? Or general incompetence, you tell me.

There is a reason why Zeller is universally ranked in the top 5. You're the one whose completely out in left field saying he's barely worthy of a lottery pick.

There is a reason why he is in the top 3 for most drafts, that's cause he's a very conservative pick. He has a skill set that can work quickly but I don't see the "potential" that you or anyone speaks of. I see a poor man's LMA if everything pans out with him. Not a bad player, just a good player that shouldn't really start on a contender.

I've seen McLemore play several times. Have you? I'm not basing my opinion of him off of numbers but what I've actually seen. His entire offense is catch and shoot spot ups, cuts, straight line drives, transition buckets, and curling off screens and catching and shooting. He does 0 creation for himself off the dribble. He's playing on a great team and he gets all of his looks on easy baskets in a limited offensive role where none of the onus of shot creation is on him.

Of Course I've seen McLemore play, I've watched both. I'm sure you've watched both, and its just hysterical you don't see how McLemore has a superior upside. Its ok to disregard stats if you feel the stats don't really fit the context of whats going on. Beal creates for himself? C'mon dude. Rip Hamilton, Ray Allen, they all play that game. McLemore can be like that plus eric gordon level athleticism. How is that not more appealing than a poor mans LMA? Oh so Zeller isn't playing on a good team? Both of them are instrumental to their team's success. You can't say one is lucky that he's playing for team X and say team Y's success would be totally gone if it wasn't for player Z.

---------- Post added January-25th-2013 at 10:17 PM ----------

As for the game, kind of expected a blowout, which is a welcome feeling. I really wish I could combine Vesely's ability set screens and overall cerebral awareness with seraphin's physical advantages. That'd actually make a for a good young prospective center. Booker and Vesely showed good hustle out there...Hope Beal's arm is fine. Oh and Wall droped 14-5 in 21 mins, adjusting for starters minutes thats like dropping 24-9...Should be good things coming once the restrictions are totally off of him.

Edited January 26, 2013 by nuposse87

[Going Commando]

Which I have, and there is nothing athletically amazing about his game. Any highlight dunks I've seen from him are of the "ho-hum" variety and usually set up by superior team play against lesser competition.

If you can't see he's an excellent athlete from watching him play then you don't know what an excellent athlete looks like. Plain and simple. Pretty much everyone who knows what they're looking at acknowledges athleticism as a strength of his. You're wrong about his speed and his ability to play above the rim.

Give me a citation for the first part, I did a quick google search couldn't find anything saying they're purposefully and wrongfully fudging numbers. Even if the measurement isn't official, I figure to be a helluva lot more close then your "official" assessment of him. Zeller's game is predicated on skill, and he's big enough for the college game where it wouldn't show up. He needs to add some weight in order to hold up on the next level, and ask yourself, do you honestly expect that he'd retain all of his supposed athleticism if he were to gain 15-20 lbs. Keep in mind he'll also be 21 the time NBA starts up, he isn't some 18 year who can easily put on weight, he can put on some, but I doubt his frame changes much...keeping him positional limbo. Lots of blocks and steals? He gets 1.4/1.3 respectively? If you're going to try to make some wild assertions try not lying through your mouth. Not to mention he less then 1 assist to TO ratio. Blackhole on offense? Or general incompetence, you tell me.

I didn't say they were intentionally lying about his measurements. WTF are you talking about?

I'm saying they don't have official measurements for him because they don't. What they've got are estimates and word of mouth speculations on his length. When they've got listings before a prospect gets officially measured, they get them from the Nike and Lebron camps most of the time. The measurements coming out of those things are notoriously unreliable.

Zeller is a 20 year old seven footer and far from fully grown. He can absolutely gain a lot of weight and retain his athleticism. You know he will. Are you really going to argue that he won't? Am I going to have to dredge this up when you're proven wrong?

Also, 1.3 SPG and 1.4 BPG are excellent totals for a big man. Particularly for a player who has "T-Rex arms" right? Moreover his defensive rating is outstanding. If he had a length problem, wouldn't it show up in his defense? How is he playing elite defense and how is he so absurdly efficient on offense if he's got a length problem?

There is a reason why he is in the top 3 for most drafts, that's cause he's a very conservative pick. He has a skill set that can work quickly but I don't see the "potential" that you or anyone speaks of. I see a poor man's LMA if everything pans out with him. Not a bad player, just a good player that shouldn't really start on a contender.

The reason he's universally regarded as a top 5 pick is because he's good.

Of Course I've seen McLemore play, I've watched both. I'm sure you've watched both, and its just hysterical you don't see how McLemore has a superior upside. Its ok to disregard stats if you feel the stats don't really fit the context of whats going on. Beal creates for himself? C'mon dude. Rip Hamilton, Ray Allen, they all play that game. McLemore can be like that plus eric gordon level athleticism. How is that not more appealing than a poor mans LMA? Oh so Zeller isn't playing on a good team? Both of them are instrumental to their team's success. You can't say one is lucky that he's playing for team X and say team Y's success would be totally gone if it wasn't for player Z.

Ray Allen can handle the ball. Rip Hamilton only got to the All Star game because his team was awesome. Yes Beal can create his own looks.

McLemore has nowhere near the impact for his team Zeller does. He's a beneficiary of all the open looks his team creates. Zeller is the straw that stirs the drink. Zeller probably gets double and triple teamed more than any other player in the country and he's still one of the most productive and efficient players in D1. There are games when Zeller probably gets double teamed every single possession. McLemore makes his plays in transition, on open cuts to the basket for oops, curling off screens, and taking open 3s. In short, he does almost 0 of the creation for his points.

[Renegade7]

A healthy wizards team did exactly what they were supposed to do and beat the crap out of an injured, struggling basketball team at home. I wish Singleton could get his way out the dog house, because I believe now we're starting to see sort of the idea of what EG had in mind with this new core. I really hope Webster can just take over the 3 spot, even Wall mentioned him by name after the game. Crawford looks great as our 6th man, offensive spark, so I really feel we can get away with focusing our upgrade efforts on a dominant 5/4 guy. I do not want to give up on Seraphin yet, because between him, booker and singleton, I want one of them to be able to take over the PF position. I wouldn't be afraid to package all three if the right deal came along...

[nuposse87]

If you can't see he's an excellent athlete from watching him play then you don't know what an excellent athlete looks like. Plain and simple. Pretty much everyone who knows what they're looking at acknowledges athleticism as a strength of his. You're wrong about his speed and his ability to play above the rim.

Noel is an excellent athlete. So is Poythress, as is Bennett. As is Shavazz and McLemore. Rudy Gobert is more athletic. I haven't seen any lateral quickness from the guy. At the end of the day we'll have to wait until the combine happens in the summer and we can see where he ranks among Centers with "top 3" pedigree. Until then, we'll just have to agree to disagree.

I didn't say they were intentionally lying about his measurements. WTF are you talking about?

I'm saying they don't have official measurements for him because they don't. What they've got are estimates and word of mouth speculations on his length. When they've got listings before a prospect gets officially measured, they get them from the Nike and Lebron camps most of the time. The measurements coming out of those things are notoriously unreliable.

If they weren't intentionally lying, why are you an authority on his wingspan and they aren't? Their whole business is to get things like this right. Even to the naked eye you can see has short arms. Could they be longer? Possibly, but unless he has 6'11 arms he's going to be at a disadvantage. Again, we'll have to wait until the combine, but I'm just going off the most reliable data out there, and sadly, it isn't you.

Zeller is a 20 year old seven footer and far from fully grown. He can absolutely gain a lot of weight and retain his athleticism. You know he will. Are you really going to argue that he won't? Am I going to have to dredge this up when you're proven wrong?

I doubt he grows any taller. He can fill out some more. He's at like 240 right now, and for that tall he'd get abused by a lot of eastern conference bigmen. He won't have a chance to work on gaining any weight until after tourney play. You can dredge it up, and I will happily eat crow, and you can't simply tell me that he'll retain his athleticism because " know he will." Truthfully it doesn't matter, cause his level athleticism won't matter against NBA size. I'm more worried about how extra weight would effect his health down the line. He doesn't exactly have tree stumps for legs, he doesn't look like he's meant to hold too much weight.

Also, 1.3 SPG and 1.4 BPG are excellent totals for a big man. Particularly for a player who has "T-Rex arms" right? Moreover his defensive rating is outstanding. If he had a length problem, wouldn't it show up in his defense? How is he playing elite defense and how is he so absurdly efficient on offense if he's got a length problem?

The steals are fine, but the blocks aren't exactly going to sway any opinions. He plays pretty much starter minutes for college basketball. I've always thought college statistics should be interpreted with some level of exaggeration. If someone shoots .50% from the 3 pt line, in no way should you expect that in the pros, same with anyone averaging 4+ blocks. or 3+ steals. The same way, I expect him to average about a block a game his whole career. Which isn't exactly a rim protector. What he does do well against lesser competition is play Pick and Roll well. He doesn't have a length problems as far as college ball goes, so it would not matter. I'm actually astounded you'd even consider that. College ball is smaller, you don't need true NBA size to excel in it.

The reason he's universally regarded as a top 5 pick is because he's good.

meh, he's excellent in collegiate play, but so was Adam Morrison.

Ray Allen can handle the ball. Rip Hamilton only got to the All Star game because his team was awesome. Yes Beal can create his own looks.

Not the Ray allen in the league now, back in the day he could dribble some, but nothing to write home about. Rip Hamilton is one of the best mid range shooters of all time, he was no scrub. Beal actually had a solid move today driving to the basket, so he is making progress, but he was very average, to below average in college. So it is possible with someone with mediocre handles to make strides, why can't we assume the same for McLemore?

McLemore has nowhere near the impact for his team Zeller does. He's a beneficiary of all the open looks his team creates. Zeller is the straw that stirs the drink. Zeller probably gets double and triple teamed more than any other player in the country and he's still one of the most productive and efficient players in D1. There are games when Zeller probably gets double teamed every single possession. McLemore makes his plays in transition, on open cuts to the basket for oops, curling off screens, and taking open 3s. In short, he does almost 0 of the creation for his points.

So its his fault he's knocking down open looks? Right...I've seen Zeller get doubled...maybe tripled once, but he won't cause a need for a lot of that in the NBA. He's not physically dominant so there will never be a need. So McLemore plays best with a ball dominant PG? Ah so he'd fit next to Wall perfectly. I won't say McLemore does more for his team, but his impact is just the same no matter how much you may want it to be. I understand why you may be angry that I don't see potential in your boy, but it is more confounding that you write off McLemore's ability to get better. McLemore at least has no physical limitations to overcome and has shown he can already shoot. He just needs to work on his handles and passing instincts. Those can all be taught. You can't teach average-to above average wingspan.

[Going Commando]

Noel is an excellent athlete. So is Poythress, as is Bennett. As is Shavazz and McLemore. Rudy Gobert is more athletic. I haven't seen any lateral quickness from the guy. At the end of the day we'll have to wait until the combine happens in the summer and we can see where he ranks among Centers with "top 3" pedigree. Until then, we'll just have to agree to disagree.

Or you could just watch him play and see the quickness and explosiveness that he obviously possesses. But sure, agree to disagree. You've dug in pretty deep on this one and will probably never acknowledge what's right there for anyone to see.

If they weren't intentionally lying, why are you an authority on his wingspan and they aren't? Their whole business is to get things like this right. Even to the naked eye you can see has short arms. Could they be longer? Possibly, but unless he has 6'11 arms he's going to be at a disadvantage. Again, we'll have to wait until the combine, but I'm just going off the most reliable data out there, and sadly, it isn't you.

Point is, they don't have official measurements for Zeller, no one does. They've got a word of mouth speculation that his arms are abnormally short. Almost every time a prospect comes along where the word of mouth speculation is that his arms are abnormally short, that word of mouth speculation is wrong.

I doubt he grows any taller. He can fill out some more. He's at like 240 right now, and for that tall he'd get abused by a lot of eastern conference bigmen. He won't have a chance to work on gaining any weight until after tourney play. You can dredge it up, and I will happily eat crow, and you can't simply tell me that he'll retain his athleticism because " know he will." Truthfully it doesn't matter, cause his level athleticism won't matter against NBA size. I'm more worried about how extra weight would effect his health down the line. He doesn't exactly have tree stumps for legs, he doesn't look like he's meant to hold too much weight.

I highly doubt he's playing at 240 right now. That'd mean he gained almost 40 pounds from last year. That kind of transformation just doesn't really happen for college kids that young. He's probably in the 220s. A lot of college teams will fudge the weight listings of their bigs for the same reason a lot of college football teams will fudge the height listings of their players. He has a good sized frame that will add bulk in time, and the process has already started considering how far he's come since less than a year ago. All of these top young bigs gain weight when they get to the NBA.

And yes, his athleticism will be an advantage in the NBA. He's a very athletic big man prospect. Most bigs in the NBA are not as athletic as he is.

The steals are fine, but the blocks aren't exactly going to sway any opinions. He plays pretty much starter minutes for college basketball. I've always thought college statistics should be interpreted with some level of exaggeration. If someone shoots .50% from the 3 pt line, in no way should you expect that in the pros, same with anyone averaging 4+ blocks. or 3+ steals. The same way, I expect him to average about a block a game his whole career. Which isn't exactly a rim protector. What he does do well against lesser competition is play Pick and Roll well. He doesn't have a length problems as far as college ball goes, so it would not matter. I'm actually astounded you'd even consider that. College ball is smaller, you don't need true NBA size to excel in it.

You're criticism of his defensive play not mattering because he's playing college ball is weak. It applies to every single college player ever. So should we ignore all excellent defensive play from college players because it's only coming against college players? Where do you draw the line? Why should it matter for some players and not others?

What is Zeller supposed to do? Not dominate his level of competition? You're acting like him dominating is a weakness, or rather, you're trying to write off the strength of it because you don't like him because you think he's got short arms.

And Zeller is by no means a finished product. He will continue to get better.

meh, he's excellent in collegiate play, but so was Adam Morrison.

So was Kevin Durant, Kevin Love, Blake Griffin, etc. And? Were you trying to compare Zeller to Morrison?

Not the Ray allen in the league now, back in the day he could dribble some, but nothing to write home about. Rip Hamilton is one of the best mid range shooters of all time, he was no scrub. Beal actually had a solid move today driving to the basket, so he is making progress, but he was very average, to below average in college. So it is possible with someone with mediocre handles to make strides, why can't we assume the same for McLemore?

The Ray Allen in the league now is not an All Star. And Rip with the Pistons is not an All Star when they aren't such a great team that gets an automatic number of All Stars.

Beal had good handles at Florida, people just didn't realize it. Billy Donovan mentioned his ball handling and ability to attack the rim as a strength and compared him to Dwyane Wade. People probably thought he was full of crap but he knew the skill set Beal had as well as anyone else. If you see some of Beal's play at the prep level with Chaminade, you can see the handles. He didn't suddenly develop them in a couple months of being in the NBA.

McLemore's situation is different. He is a late blooming converted PF that simply does not have the dribble skills of a high quality NBA 2 guard. His handles aren't mediocre--they're extremely underdeveloped. He looks flat out bad with his off hand. It's so hard to learn how to dribble late in your career. I had this discussion with Asiatic a while back about Ves and Booker and Seraphin once and he pointed out that almost nobody ever seems to drastically improve their ball handling in the NBA.

So the proposition with McLemore is going from sub par handles to All Star SG handles. That's really far fetched IMO.

So its his fault he's knocking down open looks? Right...I've seen Zeller get doubled...maybe tripled once, but he won't cause a need for a lot of that in the NBA. He's not physically dominant so there will never be a need. So McLemore plays best with a ball dominant PG? Ah so he'd fit next to Wall perfectly. I won't say McLemore does more for his team, but his impact is just the same no matter how much you may want it to be. I understand why you may be angry that I don't see potential in your boy, but it is more confounding that you write off McLemore's ability to get better. McLemore at least has no physical limitations to overcome and has shown he can already shoot. He just needs to work on his handles and passing instincts. Those can all be taught. You can't teach average-to above average wingspan.

No it's not his fault, but it's a problem he doesn't do any shot creation on his own. If he can't beat his man on a straight path to the basket, he's not going to be able to drive. Maybe Bill Self doesn't ever give him the freedom to create, but I don't think so. There's video of him several times trying to create and do something as simple as make a sharp turn to the basket dribbling with his off hand and he flat out loses the ball. He's got no understanding of how to vary his pace, he's got no advanced dribble moves that I've seen, he's very weak with his off hand, and he has a hard time turning when running suggesting his lateral quickness is lacking. He's a straight line athlete and a spot up shooter. Harrison Barnes had better handles than McLemore. That doesn't speak well for McLemore.

Is there a place for a player like McLemore in the NBA? Absolutely. As I said earlier, if he plays in a highly structured offense with an elite PG and plays second fiddle to a star that draws double teams and keeps the floor open for him, he could certainly thrive. SA, Boston, Brooklyn, Chicago, OKC, Clippers, etc. all good fits that could keep him from having to create his own offense. But what are the chances he ends up on one of those teams? They'd have to trade up for him. Maybe he ends up in Portland because they end up picking high enough and he sees that kind of situation bloom down the line as Lillard grows into a top notch PG. But right now they aren't bad enough to likely pick in the top six range McLemore will go.

Could we make use of him given our PG situation? Absolutely. But McLemore won't be a perfect fit next to Wall because he'd be behind Beal. The depth of our guards is already excellent. McLemore would have to play a lot of his minutes at the 3 most likely and necessitate a lot of 3 guard lineups. I just don't know about that. He's listed at 6'5 & 195. That's not big enough to play the traditional 3 full time IMO. He's not as tall as Rip Hamilton to handle that kind of versatile role, particularly on defense. A coach would have to get very creative and run an unconventional lineup to make a 3 guard lineup like that work full time. You'd pretty much need a great defensive big with quickness and the ability to cover a ton of space to compensate for the defensive problems we'd create with such a small lineup. We'd need a LeBron or we'd need to go small at the 4 and have a great defensive big at the 5 most nights. But then you've got problems matching up with teams that have the traditional big men at the 4 and 5 like Memphis. It'd just be difficult to make a regular McLemore / Beal / Wall lineup work. IMO McLemore would have to gain a ton of strength and bulk and just become a true 3 (though he'd still be short).

An All Star SG just needs to be able to get his on his own.

Zeller on the other hand, is not limited by a lack of skill. You think he's very limited physically, I don't think you're reasoning for saying so is accurate. And I also wouldn't say McLemore has no physical limitations. What about his CoD skills and lateral agility? Those are pretty important for a SG.

Also Zeller sees double teams extremely frequently and even gets tripled from time to time. He commands a ton of attention. Indiana is one of the best teams in the country but he's the only significant talent on the team and he's a huge scoring threat. So he gets doubled all the time. If you don't believe me, here's a tweet from DX after the Georgia game:

DraftExpress: Georgia double teamed Cody Zeller every time he touched it tonight. To his credit he usually made the right play and found the open man.

2012-11-19 20:28:52

If he doesn't get doubled in the NBA, then he'll score a lot and at a highly efficient rate. Which would be a good thing. His scoring threat is the reason you double him. Why does Nene get doubled so much? He's not exactly Dwight Howard. He's just a huge threat to score from multiple places on the court.

I'm not mad that you think he's got low potential. I'm not going to read a bunch of inaccurate arguments used to trash him without responding if that's what you're talking about. If you write something I think is clearly wrong I'm going to respond. I'm not the one arguing against the grain with him. All of the skills I see in him are echoed by practically every other pundit and draftnik source out there.

---------- Post added January-26th-2013 at 11:06 AM ----------

BTW, I think McLemore is a good prospect with a very high floor. I've got him 5th overall right now and I would consider taking him over Len at 4 if Len struggles.

He's never going to have problems with speed or leaping ability at the SG position and he's already a great shooter. Every NBA team has a place for a player like that and he will never struggle to make a roster and get into the rotation.

I just question his ability to be a legit #1 scoring option and future All Star and I don't buy all the hype talking about him going first overall or that he's the best SG prospect in a long time. I think he's a complimentary scorer and a #2 or #3 scoring option. The only way he gets to an All Star game is on a team with a creative, ball dominant PG, a #1 scoring option, and at least one other All Star that is "the man" for that team.

Do we have that here? I think so though our pieces haven't matured yet. Wall is a ball dominant PG and is "the man" for our team. But the problem is the guy who is probably going to be our #1 scoring option is Beal and he plays SG already. How do you make a Wall / Beal / McLemore construction work?

Edited January 26, 2013 by stevemcqueen1

[DallasBlowsBig]

correct me if I am wrong, but we are only 6.5 games back of the last playoff spot, that means playoffs are definately still possible

[757SeanTaylor21]

Has anybody ever heard of "Superhandles"? Man I'm not sure why this guy wouldn't make it in the nba. He has the best ball handling I've ever seen, can get past any 1 on 1 def. he has a ball dribbling camp and DVDs to teach kids all the ways up to college

[Tulane Skins Fan]

correct me if I am wrong, but we are only 6.5 games back of the last playoff spot, that means playoffs are definately still possible

I think they are nine games out. And you have to figure that they need to get close to .500 to get the 8 seed. They'd have to go like 30-10 the rest of the year to get into the playoffs. Its probably too late, but this team is much better than its record now.

[Reaper 21]

Stevemcqueen I totally agree zeller will be very good in the nba. I honestly think he'll be the best big man, nobody is so fundamentally sound as him, since Timmy. He's going to be better then Noel and I guarantee it, potential does not win games nor does wingspan

[Going Commando]

Stevemcqueen I totally agree zeller will be very good in the nba. I honestly think he'll be the best big man, nobody is so fundamentally sound as him, since Timmy. He's going to be better then Noel and I guarantee it, potential does not win games nor does wingspan

I've got Zeller third, behind Noel. You're right, potential and wingspan don't win games. But that's not all Noel brings to the table. He's producing right now as an 18 year old. He's been rebounding very well and playing some monster defense and is a better rebounder and defender than Zeller at this point. One way to think of it is Noel is currently about as brilliant defensively as Zeller is offensively.

Zeller is ranked among the best offensive players in the country at any position.

Noel is ranked second in defensive rating and defensive win shares and is arguably the best defensive player in the country.

Zeller is very highly ranked defensively too, and is actually third in the country in total win shares. First among the major conferences. He's been dominant on both ends but you have to remember he's two years older than Noel.

I think Noel is a better offensive player than he's demonstrated because I believe Calipari keeps him on the chain on offense and his guards are not good and experienced enough to get him space and opportunity to do work on that end. It's a similar problem Alex Len has been having.

Ultimately, I think potential does matter a lot in the draft when you're picking high. You don't pass over a guy who has franchise player potential just because he's not as finished a product as a different guy who has lower potential. Zeller is not the athlete Noel is, he doesn't have the same kind of franchise building block potential Noel does IMO. The trick is to figure out what these guys are going to look like when they're 24 or 25 and see what they'll bring to the table then.

[nuposse87]

Or you could just watch him play and see the quickness and explosiveness that he obviously possesses. But sure, agree to disagree. You've dug in pretty deep on this one and will probably never acknowledge what's right there for anyone to see.

He's no quicker then most 6-11 big men in the NBA. His footwork is better but he'll be knocked out of position with minimal contact. He's not strong enough to play the 5 and he isn't faster then NBA 4s. He's nimble, I can say that, but outside of one reverse dunk on some wing player, I haven't seen the "explosiveness" that you speak of. Lot more college ball left, for his sake I hope he showcases it. Lets also be clear, I don't dislike him, I think he's going to be a solid professional, but I vehmently disagree that he'd be a missing "piece" for this roster. I see his career arc taking him to maybe the 3rd best player on a team when he's in his prime...

Point is, they don't have official measurements for Zeller, no one does. They've got a word of mouth speculation that his arms are abnormally short. Almost every time a prospect comes along where the word of mouth speculation is that his arms are abnormally short, that word of mouth speculation is wrong.

I'll take a site like DX's opinion over yours, no offense. You can't fault me judging him with what "known" data there is. Not until you can provide me something with more credibility.

I highly doubt he's playing at 240 right now. That'd mean he gained almost 40 pounds from last year. That kind of transformation just doesn't really happen for college kids that young. He's probably in the 220s. A lot of college teams will fudge the weight listings of their bigs for the same reason a lot of college football teams will fudge the height listings of their players. He has a good sized frame that will add bulk in time, and the process has already started considering how far he's come since less than a year ago. All of these top young bigs gain weight when they get to the NBA.

http://www.iuhoosiers.com/sports/m-baskbl/mtt/cody_zeller_760980.html

I'll take their official listing. He could be at 235, hell Vesely is 6'11 240 and they got similar build. So I don't see why you think he's 20lbs lighter outer then pure conspiracy. I still think he gain 15-20, 255lbs would be ideal for Zeller if he can become a 5. I question whether he has the frame to hold that kind of weight for his career though.

And yes, his athleticism will be an advantage in the NBA. He's a very athletic big man prospect. Most bigs in the NBA are not as athletic as he is.

Forward/Centers in the east with more athleticism then him (not skill, just shear athleticism): Booker, Vesely, LBJ, Bosh, Lopez (at his size, yes), Gerald Wallace, Ed Davis, Udoh, Larry Sanders, Tyson Chandler, Amare, Jon Henson, McRoberts, Andrew Nicholson, Biyombo, Warrick, Noah, Gibson, Drummond, Maxiell, maybe Monroe, Josh Smith, Al Horford, T. Young, Miles Plumlee, Jonas Val (for his size and girth, he moves extremely well and is much more imposing), Jeff Green, Tristian Thompson....and thats just in the east. Those are all players, relative to their game, are more athletic. There are a ton of people in the east that are less athletic then him that you could consider athletic, but they are either scrub bench players or make up for it with shear strength and skill. Your assertion is invalid.

You're criticism of his defensive play not mattering because he's playing college ball is weak. It applies to every single college player ever. So should we ignore all excellent defensive play from college players because it's only coming against college players? Where do you draw the line? Why should it matter for some players and not others?

Of course it applies to every player, but you aren't seeing he point. If he was averaging 4 blocks a game, THEN I'd be impressed, because while he'll never do that in the pros, he has a good chance of being a rim protector in the next level. Players that statistically dominate the collegiate game, while having the physical makeup to compete in the NBA are prospects I want to explore. The only thing about Zeller I like is his FG%. That tells me he takes good shots and gets in good position. He doesn't dominate in any other statistical category. He's good in some of them, for the collegiate game, but I expect an "athletic" player to show more dominance. Noel is athletic and he averages 4 blocks a game, I can reasonably infer that skillset will have decent chance of translating over into the pros, maybe at like 2 blocks a game per 36 early on, but I think that level dominance is more credible than 1.4 bpg.

What is Zeller supposed to do? Not dominate his level of competition? You're acting like him dominating is a weakness, or rather, you're trying to write off the strength of it because you don't like him because you think he's got short arms.

His efficiency is his only dominant trait. Other than that he's just really good. I was mistaken in characterizing his dominance of the collegiate game. He's just really good at it. He flows well within his team's play. I'm not going to be sold on him until the combine. Unless he drops like 40 in the tourney, that will be more telling.

And Zeller is by no means a finished product. He will continue to get better.

That is fair, he probably will get better. I still have no reason to believe his ceiling is high. I expect a number 3 overall pick to have considerable upside, I don't see that level of room for growth.

So was Kevin Durant, Kevin Love, Blake Griffin, etc. And? Were you trying to compare Zeller to Morrison?

First of all, Durant had the physical tools to dominate in the next level (his wingspan). Griffin had the first step and general leaping ability to dominate. Love had the strength and core to dominate in the next level. Cody Zeller, outside of being 6-11, has no physical tools to dominate. He has an abundance of skill, which could potentially translate over. Morrison was a helluva collegiate player because he had amazing skill, for whatever reason, he busted. Jimmer Ferdette, amazingly skilled in college, role player on the Kings. All of them lacked a the physical tools in order to be relevant. Morrison's downfall wasn't his wingspan or lack of position, he was just not athletic enough for his level of skill to matter.

I'll address the McLemore stuff later. Btw, welcome to realgm

Edited January 26, 2013 by nuposse87

[Going Commando]

Nerlens having a Nerlens game. He alters everything in the paint. Showed off a nice little jump hook too.

McLemore had a fast start getting several quick points but has quieted down since. The Kansas guards look a little off today.

[nuposse87]

If Jeff Withey can be had in the late 1st, I think ernie should try to make a trade in order to acquire him. He're got very nice defensive instincts. He also rebounds, which seems to be a lost art on our current roster with everyone except Okafor and Booker.

[StillUnknown]

Luol Deng is out tonight, this game just became a lot more winnable.

[MonkFan8]

Welcome to the RealGM Wizards board, steve

Excellent start for Wall.

Edited January 27, 2013 by MonkFan8

[G.A.C.O.L.B.]

Is it just my TV or is there something weird going uo with the sound? It's like Buck and Phil are isolated in a phonebooth or something

Edit: well now it's like in and out. Comcast blows

---------- Post added January-26th-2013 at 08:34 PM ----------

Lmao. Thanks for the 2 points Taj Gibson.

Edited January 27, 2013 by G.A.C.O.L.B.

[Destino]

Luol Deng is out tonight, this game just became a lot more winnable.

After the 1st it doesn't feel that way. Bulls are getting so many open looks. Bad idea when their whole damn team can shoot (must be nice).

[SuperBash]

They Nene injury didnt seem good. Hope it isnt serious

[Going Commando]

Welcome to the RealGM Wizards board, steve

Excellent start for Wall.

Nice, thanks. And thanks nuposse for the welcome too.

What are your handles on realGM? Does anyone else around here post there?

Brave invited me to join realGM a long time ago but I never did before now. I saw it's got a huge draft thread like ES does for CFB and that drew me in. I love draft talk.

[MonkFan8]

I don't post terribly often, but over there I am TheBigThree.

The Wizards forum over there has some really excellent stats guys and in general some incredibly knowledgeable posters. I wouldn't spend too much time on the general board, though. You'd probably lose a few IQ points

[Going Commando]

If Jeff Withey can be had in the late 1st, I think ernie should try to make a trade in order to acquire him. He're got very nice defensive instincts. He also rebounds, which seems to be a lost art on our current roster with everyone except Okafor and Booker.

Withey is good and he has size but he's so deliberate. Doesn't get off his feet with a whole lot of explosion and though he does have a motor and runs the floor hard, he's just not that quick. There's a place in the NBA for a guy like him but he seems mostly like a space eater and a six hard fouls type.

---------- Post added January-26th-2013 at 07:56 PM ----------

I don't post terribly often, but over there I am TheBigThree.

The Wizards forum over there has some really excellent stats guys and in general some incredibly knowledgeable posters. I wouldn't spend too much time on the general board, though. You'd probably lose a few IQ points

Sounds like the stadium.

[G.A.C.O.L.B.]

Okafor made Boozer his ***** on that last one

[Renegade7]

Very sound half of basketball. Moving the ball around to keep from Bulls defense crushing them and most importantly, finishing. Wall at the end gave the business to Nate Robinson, and I really like Okafor at the 5 and Nene at the 4.

We may not be be a better team then the bulls in the record books, but we're better team right now, and that's all that matters. Booker playing better as well, so really just want to see Singleton wake the hell up (is what it is with Vesley).

[G.A.C.O.L.B.]

Okafor really impresses me down in the paint sometimes

[Renegade7]

Tora tora tora...

And acting very professional about it to. Keep it gully, and get it down Washington.

---------- Post added January-26th-2013 at 08:27 PM ----------

Wall definitely doing better on that jumper, there's not doubt about it.

---------- Post added January-26th-2013 at 08:28 PM ----------

Edited January 27, 2013 by Renegade7