The Official Washington Basketball Thread: Wizards, Mystics etc

[SuperBash]

To contend, we're going to have to find a wing player that can find his own shot consistently. Without that piece, we have no shot. We can either wait until one becomes available via trade (I'm not counting Harden, maybe someone like Granger with Paul George coming along) or draft one in the 2014 draft where there should be a couple (Wiggins, Parker, Randle).

[nfl guru]

Steve Mcqueen, hate all you want on Harden, but odds are he will be the starting 2 guard for Team USA in 2016. I dont see any player on this roster that can even make an allstar game. And please, thinking our franchise will be smart enough to dump Nenes contract when he is over 30 years old is a pipe dream. That contract is a albatross and proves this front office has NO definite plan.

The Wizards also set aside money for the summer of 2014, when Wall, a former No. 1 pick, Kevin Seraphin, Jordan Crawford and Trevor Booker will become restricted free agents. Several big name talents — LeBron James, Rudy Gay, Carmelo Anthony and Chris Bosh, among others — also could enter the open market.

Haha, fantastic. Looking forward to resigning all the guys who have led us to 2-13 starts in back to back seasons. Throw in the big name free agents to bait the casual fan like they even have a shot at those guys

[Going Commando]

With the collection of players currently on this team, why does flexibility to re-sign guys become a priority over a player like James Harden. Harden is better than everybody on the roster, including Wall. In fact, given Wall's injury, there is no telling if he will be an effective player in this league again. He thrived with his athletic ability and now he has a very serious knee injury. If this organization won't start building around a guy like Harden, who will they build around?

The only way is to keep the deck clear for when you do get a special player who can be your franchise cornerstone. In the mean time, you've got to stay awful and keep your long term cap commitments minimal. Those are your only ways of getting a franchise player.

I don't think Harden is a franchise player and is not someone I would want to build around in that way.

---------- Post added December-12th-2012 at 12:21 PM ----------

To contend, we're going to have to find a wing player that can find his own shot consistently. Without that piece, we have no shot. We can either wait until one becomes available via trade (I'm not counting Harden, maybe someone like Granger with Paul George coming along) or draft one in the 2014 draft where there should be a couple (Wiggins, Parker, Randle).

It needs to be a forward or center, not a SG. If it's a guard, it needs to be a PG so unbelivably good like Derek Rose or CP3. Otherwise a guard can not impact the game enough to propel his team into the playoffs on his own. Even Kobe and Wade had years where they couldn't get to the playoffs on their own. I had originally hoped and truly believed Wall was going to be our Derek Rose. Now I just don't know. More than anything, I don't know that we ever had the people in place in the FO to allow Wall to get to that place.

Granger is a good player but not good enough to make a playoff team on his own.

I do think Wiggins and Parker and Randle are special though. Wiggins is a LeBron/Wade/Kobe type. He's an amazing prospect that should be able to lift a team up on his own. I see similarities in Parker and Melo and Randle and Blake Griffin. I agree those guys should also be able to elevate the teams they get taken by.

Still, the Wizards remain the place where good prospects go to fail while EG is GM.

---------- Post added December-12th-2012 at 12:29 PM ----------

Steve Mcqueen, hate all you want on Harden, but odds are he will be the starting 2 guard for Team USA in 2016. I dont see any player on this roster that can even make an allstar game. And please, thinking our franchise will be smart enough to dump Nenes contract when he is over 30 years old is a pipe dream. That contract is a albatross and proves this front office has NO definite plan.

Harden is not that good. Him being the starting SG on the Olympic team says more about the state of American SGs than it does about him. People stopped watching him after the first two games apparently. He is not a franchise player even though he gets a max contract in this desperate market and he's not been able to improve the Rockets from where they were last year. They are 10th in their conference now after finishing 9th last year, still hovering around .500.

If Harden is as good as you claim, he should have made an immediate impact.

[RonArtest15]

A Harden deal would have reinvigorated the fan base in the short term. He's a good player and it would have been a welcome relief to watch a good player and win enough games to not be a national punchline. We're a desperate fan base.

But after a little while we'd get used to being mediocre and our expectations and standards would no longer be so depressingly low. We'd be frustrated by our inability to contend and we'd know that we're wasting our time with the current construction and that we'd inevitably have to blow the thing up.

It's basically the exact same thing the Hawks have gone through.

I don't see how you can justify Harden as not being "that good?" I can understand not liking a player...but he's an Olympian for a reason.

Having a trio of Harden/Wall/Nene (along w/ a competent GM) would NOT hinder our long-term flexibility or ability to become more than what the Hawks were when they had JJ, Smith, and Horford.

James Harden at 23 is 1000x better than Joe Johnson was at the same age, FWIW. He hasn't even come close to hitting his prime yet as well.

[Destino]

If I were rebuilding this franchise as it's new GM I would basically do everything I could to ensure I got a top two pick in 2014. That would be my plan. I don't know how you go about doing it but that's all I've got.

I'd also begin replacing the training staff my first day.

You are forever stuck on the distant future. What you're saying now is that you'd be planning on making the wizards good by 2017. Draft + three years = NBA ready player. Can't blame your thinking because that what the wizards have been doing as well. They just keep slapping at the three year snooze button and putting off winning games until a day in the future that never gets closer. Stuck on the dumbest thinking the NBA has to offer "build a champion or build a complete loser, but avoid the hell of in between". The stars that recently came of age in the NBA are going to rule for a while and there isn't a player drafted in the last 5 years that is going to do a damn thing about it. Rose, Love, Harden, and Griffin are not going to be stealing the show from James and Durant in the near future unless they build a super team to do it. It's better to be good but not great and position yourself to land great players than it is to hope that the next Lebron comes along the same year your ping pong balls pop up.

Also Lebron didn't bring a championship to Cleveland. Dwight and Shaq didn't bring titles to Orlando. Adding a star to a trash heap doesn't work.

Edited December 12, 2012 by Destino

[Hersh]

The only way is to keep the deck clear for when you do get a special player who can be your franchise cornerstone. In the mean time, you've got to stay awful and keep your long term cap commitments minimal. Those are your only ways of getting a franchise player.

I don't think Harden is a franchise player and is not someone I would want to build around in that way.

If you don't start somewhere, you won't get anywhere. The Wizards haven't started anything and will continue to get nowhere. Give me a team that competes for a lower half playoff seed anytime over what we have now. Then you have the opportunity to do what some teams have done and traded a few good players for one superstar.

[Going Commando]

You are forever stuck on the distant future. What you're saying now is that you'd be planning on making the wizards good by 2017. Draft + three years = NBA ready player. Can't blame your thinking because that what the wizards have been doing as well. They just keep slapping at the three year snooze button and putting off winning games until a day in the future that never gets closer. Stuck on the dumbest thinking the NBA has to offer "build a champion or build a complete loser, but avoid the hell of in between". The stars that recently came of age in the NBA are going to rule for a while and there isn't a player drafted in the last 5 years that is going to do a damn thing about it. Rose, Love, Harden, and Griffin are not going to be stealing the show from James and Durant in the near future unless they build a super team to do it. It's better to be good but not great and position yourself to land great players than it is to hope that the next Lebron comes along the same year your ping pong balls pop up.

Also Lebron didn't bring a championship to Cleveland. Dwight and Shaq didn't bring titles to Orlando. Adding a star to a trash heap doesn't work.

Bottoming out and getting lucky in the draft, trading off a massive amount of smaller chips for a disgruntled franchise player, or completely clearing out the decks to try and get one in FA are the only ways to become a contender.

Collecting a couple of players like Harden isn't going to get you there. You need a franchise guy.

LeBron got Cleveland to contention. He would have stayed if they had been able to get even a reasonably attractive team around him. But they made a lot of personnel mistakes during his time there and I can't criticize his decision to leave.

Dwight and Shaq both got Orlando to contention as well and the reasons they left had more to do with personal stuff. Shaq was dissed by the city of Orlando and his organization. Dwight was dissed by management. It pissed them off. And in Dwight's case, his GM was horrible and ruined the team around him with his incompetence.

Lesson there: when you get a franchise player, don't **** it up with incompetent personnel decisions and don't insult the guy.

What about all the other teams who did draft or trade for franchise players? Knicks, Nets, Bulls, Heat,

You're arguing for mediocrity being the best option and from your post it seems like you're perfectly willing to accept that outcome. I would much rather wait a few years for a chance at sustained contention than take a quick rise to mediocrity.

It's absolutely better to be awful than mediocre in the NBA because it's your only ticket to getting out. That's going to become even more true once the cap is more restrictive in 2014.

---------- Post added December-12th-2012 at 01:05 PM ----------

If you don't start somewhere, you won't get anywhere. The Wizards haven't started anything and will continue to get nowhere. Give me a team that competes for a lower half playoff seed anytime over what we have now. Then you have the opportunity to do what some teams have done and traded a few good players for one superstar.

How does Harden get you a Superstar? If anything, Harden hurts your ability to get a franchise player because he's a max contract even though he doesn't give you max contract contributions. You mean trade Harden for a Superstar? Why would a team take that deal? I can't recall a deal like that happening before because usually when Superstars get traded it's their team trying to fire sale off to rebuild.

Edited December 12, 2012 by stevemcqueen1

[pjfootballer]

So let's keep ending up in the lottery like we have been for the last 35 years, because, you know that has worked wonders.

The problem with Washington is, when on the rate occassions they have tried to build a playoff team outside of the draft (Moses or Bernard King days or Webber/Howard/Strict or Gil/Jamison/Caron) they gave these guys insane contracts that they didn't deserve on top of not drafting worth a ****.

But hell, at least it was tried. They need to do both IMO. Continue to draft and develop the young guys, but get some veterans in here that can ball a little without overpaying for them. I know, easier said than done, but the current model is not working.

I too am getting sick and tired of the "future." Like George Allen said, the future is now. And I'm not getting any younger.

[abdcskins]

It's quite simple really. Everything about the Wizards sucks. Front office, coaching, training staff, even the damn catering. This rubs off on the already ****ty players that we have. Therefore, we perennially suck. That's it. We draft bad players and sign worse ones. If they have talent somehow they will get injured or we'll trade them. Get rid of Chris Webber, keep Juwan Howard. Richard Hamilton, Ben Wallace, Rasheed Wallace. Nah those guys suck, get rid of them. But you know that dude Ike Austin is a baller, let's bring him in. Kwame Brown, Mark Price, Mike Miller and Randy Foye....the list goes on and on. We make dumb moves and get trash in return. Period. No need to overanalyze.

[RonArtest15]

If anything, Harden hurts your ability to get a franchise player because he's a max contract even though he doesn't give you max contract contributions

You can say the exact same thing about Kevin Love, or just about any young player not named Durant or Lebron James.

[Hersh]

How does Harden get you a Superstar? If anything, Harden hurts your ability to get a franchise player because he's a max contract even though he doesn't give you max contract contributions. You mean trade Harden for a Superstar? Why would a team take that deal? I can't recall a deal like that happening before because usually when Superstars get traded it's their team trying to fire sale off to rebuild.

I'm not talking about trading Harden away, I'm talking about trading any and every other good player for one superstar if you had a team that was making the playoffs as a lower seed, like the Knicks and Clippers both did.

It's just laughable that you are taking the position that Harden isn't a boarderline great player already at the age of 23.That makes him a Max player to a franchise like the Wiz that struggle to get guys to come here. What more do you want out of a player because there are maybe two or three players in the entire league that can take a poor team like the Wiz and make them a playoff/championship contender by themselves. The list begins and end with LeBron and Durant. Harden would be a great start to any franchise building a team. Will he win us a championship on his own, of course not, but he could be a big time contributor to a championship team.

Edited December 12, 2012 by Hersh

[Destino]

You can say the exact same thing about Kevin Love, or just about any young player not named Durant or Lebron James.

Good point. If a max deal (and not all max deals are created equal) hurts you than anyone not named Lebron or Durant is not worth a max deal. After all Kobe is way too expensive for his age. Nowitzky is old and injured. Dwight has never won anything. Melo can't win in the playoffs. Chris Paul is good enough to beat the Spurs or the Thunder. Rose has a bad knee and can't get passed Lebron.

So essentially gamble on the future or sign one of two guys.

You know what this is really about? The Okafor and Ariza trade. Instead of saving money by coming to terms with Lewis we paid Okafor and Ariza 22 million next season. Harden is only 5-6 million this year. Lewis's contract saving immediately cover that. His total off the books more than covers harden next season. But we just had to keep wasting ****ing money on trash and Ted didnt want to get into the luxury tax next season. That is the real reason they turned down harden if the trade was actually proposed,

****ing Okafor and Ariza! The gift that keeps on giving.

[BRAVEONTHEWARPATH93]

I am so sick of the ******* draft...I hate that ******* thing.

Why are we banking on this team actually picking someone that works???!

God, I am so bitter....

---------- Post added December-12th-2012 at 01:52 PM ----------

This future bs is a pipe dream because we have NO reason to believe our FO is capable of building a damn future.

[Sticksboi05]

You can say the exact same thing about Kevin Love, or just about any young player not named Durant or Lebron James.

I'd take Love's 21/14 a game any day.

[Destino]

I am so sick of the ******* draft...I hate that ******* thing.

Why are we banking on this team actually picking someone that works???!

God, I am so bitter....

We are awesome at picking role players for other teams. McGee is a great addition off the bench to the Nuggets. An efficient center coming off the bench in the NBA? Unheard of. Blatche has been a dream in Brooklyn not only a fantastic scoring option off the bench but a decent replacement at center while their best offensive option is injured. Two efficient bigs, even if they are off the bench players, are valuable in the NBA... as long as it's not on the Wizards. Rashard Lewis looked lost and hopeless here I can't watch a miami heat game without hearing about his "remarkable turn around" that of course is attributed to the sudden onset of health.

Our next crop of players that will work out somewhere else is currently under construction.

[Going Commando]

You can say the exact same thing about Kevin Love, or just about any young player not named Durant or Lebron James.

I wasn't as big a fan of Love as most but he's growing on me. I like him and I think he's a better player than Harden and does more to help a team win. Minny's in a playoff race right now, he can potentially get them there this season. But yeah, he's a flawed franchise player because of his liability on D and it's harder to build a contender around him than others. BUT, I think it can still be done.

KD and LeBron aren't the only other franchise players, it doesn't just have to be young guys. Kobe, Melo, Dwight, Rose, CP3, DWill, Griffin, Duncan, Dirk, Love, and Westbrook, are all franchise players too. Rondo is about to get there too. Tony P is basically at that level. Wade used to be and is still close. Davis will be there soon. Steph Curry has made massive strides and could one day be a franchise player if he could stay healthy. He's still a long way off from that level though.

Teams do get worthy franchise guys to build around and those are most of the playoff teams. For Harden to be a franchise player he needs to elevate his level of play and lead what's actually a pretty good and deep Rockets team to the playoffs. They need to get over the hump and stop hanging around .500.

---------- Post added December-12th-2012 at 02:03 PM ----------

I'm not talking about trading Harden away, I'm talking about trading any and every other good player for one superstar if you had a team that was making the playoffs as a lower seed, like the Knicks and Clippers both did.

It's just laughable that you are taking the position that Harden isn't a boarderline great player already at the age of 23.That makes him a Max player to a franchise like the Wiz that struggle to get guys to come here. What more do you want out of a player because there are maybe two or three players in the entire league that can take a poor team like the Wiz and make them a playoff/championship contender by themselves. The list begins and end with LeBron and Durant. Harden would be a great start to any franchise building a team. Will he win us a championship on his own, of course not, but he could be a big time contributor to a championship team.

Then if not by trading Harden, how do you get a championship contending team around him? He's gobbled up your financial flexibility and improved you to around .500 so you can no longer use the draft.

How is Houston going to build a contender around him? The answer is they can't.

[BRAVEONTHEWARPATH93]

Dammit, I am done. I've just spent the last couple of hours looking back on the past 2 years.

This is worse the 2009 Skins. I can't understand how a FO that terrible can exist. I love posting in here because ALL OF YOU GUYS are among the most knowledgeable on the board but dammit, I can't get emotionally invested in a team that doesn't want to win. I am tuned out completely...I'll still stay up on the team but until basic competency returns, they won't get my blind attention anymore.

I used to debate kids in 2nd grade why MJ, Rip, and Jahidi White were gonna tear up the East. I have grown up...

:soapbox::soapbox::rant::rant::cuss::cuss::cuss:

[Skins199021]

Wow just became aware that we turned down Harden for Beal and Singleton, I think I am going to be sick....

Wall/Harden/Seraphin/Nene would have had a chance at something watchable

[Destino]

Then if not by trading Harden, how do you get a championship contending team around him? He's gobbled up your financial flexibility and improved you to around .500 so you can no longer use the draft.

How is Houston going to build a contender around him? The answer is they can't.

Why do you think his contract is the problem in Houston? Teams can carry two max contracts relatively easily in the NBA. The problem the houston rockets face is 2014-15 when Lin and Asik get almost 15 million each.

[StillUnknown]

Harden is cooking us early.

[GoCommiesGo]

Watching this makes me sad inside, I don't know if the rumor is true but if it is I'm very disappointed as a fan. Harden may not be worth a max deal but few players truly are, a team needs a trio of above average players to have success or a transcendent talent like Durant or James.

Harden and Wall likely could have been two of three but we will never know because we ar in purgatory for the foreseeable future and that most of all is depressing.

[MonkFan8]

17 first quarter points for Harden.

Sigh

[StillUnknown]

17 points in the first quarter for Harden

**** You Ted Leonsis

Score after 1:

James Harden: 17

Wizards: 17

Edited December 13, 2012 by StillUnknown

[SuperBash]

I'm glad something like this came out to make Ted and Ernie look terrible. Hopefully it helps make some sort of change since they look horrid in the media and amongst most fans. But, they'll probably just look at each other and say, "This looks bad...let's fire Randy to take the attention off of us."

[StillUnknown]

We're down double digits, which means we'll actually try to play now.