Food Stamps: A Rant.

[Mursilis]

"Well for your information, my grandfather is missing part of his leg and can't walk without a cane for more than 20 feet because he was hit with a hand grenade in Vietnam. He was a Marine for 30 years so that he could protect fat idiots like you from the Soviets and so that you would have the right to continue to yammer into that stupid cancer causing box next to your head. if you don't get out of this spot in 30 seconds I'm calling the police."

That's awesome!

[skinfan133]

So education is a bad thing?

absolutely not. As a student of Jefferson I believe public education is one of the more wonderful things in this country. I break from a few circles of libertarianism in that I fully believe in state public education (as long as the states fund and control it, not the federal government).

Sensible policies, good curriculum, and good teachers produce educated adults. Money is not the only factor in that equation by a longshot, and quite frankly you're helping me illustrate my point. Simply throwing money at schools solves nothing. Look at DC's public schools: more spending per student than a majority of public school systems in the nation but some of the worst results and dropout rates.

throwing money at a problem does not always fix it.

[Mursilis]

Medicare/Medicaid/social security... aren't those paid seperately from taxes and actually dipped into for other expenses in the budget. I fail to see how cutting these (which would have to come with a cut of the corresponding line item on our taxes) would change the national debt.

Wow. You really need to do some reading on how the whole taxes/expenditures thing really works.

[zoony]

So if I see her at the store and she's riding in a scooter, buying candy bars, and parking her car in a accessible space, I'll say hello and treat her like a person, and not a leech.

My original rant didn't have so much to do with this one particular person, so much as the system that is in place allowing her to thrive.

I get that there are a lot of people who don't know any better. However, we should expect more from our policy makers.

[skinfan133]

Medicare/Medicaid/social security... aren't those paid seperately from taxes and actually dipped into for other expenses in the budget. I fail to see how cutting these (which would have to come with a cut of the corresponding line item on our taxes) would change the national debt.

:doh: not what I'm saying at all. My point is that simply increasing a budget solves nothing, and can even contribute to problems.

There are massive problems with welfare, and quite frankly, the heart-string twinging simpleton outlook that simply increasing funding will fix these problems, or that there aren't even any problems at all are MUCH more harmful to the poor than someone like me who advocates for reforming the system so that it meets the needs its supposed to.

that wasn't necessarily aimed in response to you destino, but you have to understand how frustrating it is to type paragraphs and receive nebulous one line heart-tug questions in response.

I'll go on record, anyone who believes in blindlyl increasing government budgets in the name of progress is an idiot. There needs to be direction and accountability. There needs to be sensible spending that is within the means and needs of the community. And today, the current welfare system does not deliver that, for all the reasons listed over the last 7 pages, whether it is about the woman in the example or anything else we've talked about.

[Nickclone]

The debt was already 5+ trillion when Bush stumbled into office, son. Please read some history. Of course, Bush made the problem worse, but he didn't create it.

It's not the program itself that's bad - it's the kind of dependency it creates. We went from a nation of contributors to a nation of leeches in less than 100 years. U.S. public debt was less than 10% of GDP as recently as 1920, spiked over 100% due to WWII, and hasn't been below 20% since. And it's heading upward, and will get worse with "free" healthcare.

Ummm...Bush stumbled into a 230 billion dollar surplus, I can't believe someone is still defending Bush in this day in age. The only twice elected president that has been banned from his own party's convention on a presidential election year.

[TheDoyler23]

My original rant didn't have so much to do with this one particular person, so much as the system that is in place allowing her to thrive.

I get that there are a lot of people who don't know any better.

Oh absolutely. If there is a system, there is someone cheating it. Just like there is a certain percentage of the population that are jerks (not you). We call then Eagles fans.

[Ryman of the North]

at the risk of going on a further tangent, I can't stand people who disrespect handicapped parking spaces.

story time.

My grandfather is an 80% disabled veteran. Needless to say, he actually needs the space for parking. So my family (me, parents, grandparents) go out for dinner, two separate cars. I ride with my grandparents so I can continue talking with them while my parents drive their car. Me and my grandparents get to the shopping center first (the nice one in landsdowne for those who know it) and there are no parking spots. Not a problem, Grandpa's car has a handicapped tag and plates. Well, handicapped if filled. And sitting in one of the spots is a car idling. I get out to go talk to the driver. Its a woman on her cell phone. I knock on the window, and she rolls it down and exclaims, "WHAT?!" I say, "Ma'am you're sitting in a handicapped space, do you have tags, "No, but I'm busy, leave me alone."

so I get a little annoyed and up the ante; "Look, unless you've got handicapped tags you need to move and go somewhere else, there are people who need this spot." She goes, "look, I have just as much right as anyone to be here, its just a parking spot." So I raise my voice, "Absolutely you do not have a right to be here! My grandfather over there is sitting in the middle of traffic waiting to park in this spot that you are idling in and don't even have a right to be in, so why don't you go talk on your phone somewhere else." And then she screams at me, "Well what ****ing makes him so special and more important than me?"

I lost it

"Well for your information, my grandfather is missing part of his leg and can't walk without a cane for more than 20 feet because he was hit with a hand grenade in Vietnam. He was a Marine for 30 years so that he could protect fat idiots like you from the Soviets and so that you would have the right to continue to yammer into that stupid cancer causing box next to your head. if you don't get out of this spot in 30 seconds I'm calling the police."

she left without a word.

****ing entitled people, at least my grandfather did something to earn the entitlement of parking close to a sidewalk. Anyone with a legit handicapped tag deserves those spots regardless, and I do call the police on people who park without tags or plates in handicapped.

so ye be warned

respect, most people would have sat and ****ed to themselves, what the world needs is more people willing to stand up and be heard.

the other day I was taking the bus home from work, I currently have a sprained MCL so I was sitting, I was reading a book and not paying attention but I heard a girls voice asking someone if she could sit down, I looked up to see an arab fellow glaring at a very pregnant woman. I immediately stood up and have her my seat. she thanked me and then saw me limp and asked if I was sure. I just laughed and gave up my seat. however afterward I did say to the arab fellow that in this country we give up our seat when a woman asks PERIOD. Then I made sure that the rest of the ride my backpack swung everytime we stopped and sometimes it would hit him in the back of the head.

Ive had teenagers act like that, an asian person and now an arab person so I think common courtesy is just dying out.

[SellersHappens]

The debt was already 5+ trillion when Bush stumbled into office, son. Please read some history. Of course, Bush made the problem worse, but he didn't create it.

It's not the program itself that's bad - it's the kind of dependency it creates. We went from a nation of contributors to a nation of leeches in less than 100 years. U.S. public debt was less than 10% of GDP as recently as 1920, spiked over 100% due to WWII, and hasn't been below 20% since. And it's heading upward, and will get worse with "free" healthcare.

Debt does not equal deficit. The debt is the total deficit over time, while the deficit is defined year by year. We had a surplus going into the Bush years, even with all those social programs you despise. In fact, the existence of the surplus, which would be used to pay down the government debt, was used as a justification for why large tax cuts were needed. Furthermore, I wish I knew where there meme about "free" heathcare comes from. The Affordable Care Act (aka Obamacare) isn't anywhere close to a single payer system. People still purchase health insurance from private insurers.

One question I have; what makes someone a "leech"?

[Destino]

SF13 if your point is that throwing money at problems doesn't fix them... I agree.

[skinfan133]

Diet has more to do with weight than activity level. I play basketball with many people that are over weight and I happen to know their activity level is high. It's ignorance (like you're displaying) that leads to high levels of over weight and obese individuals. If you eat wrong the average person will eventually gain significant weight even with steady exercise. As you get older your diet needs to adjust as well.

you're both wrong

healthy people eat right and exercise. There's rarely any middle ground. Simply eating right will not keep you from gaining weight. Simply exercising like crazy and eating McD's every day is not going to keep you healthy, or even within a good weight limit necessarily.

and ftr, BMI is a terrible measure of weight health.

[skinfan133]

SF13 if your point is that throwing money at problems doesn't fix them... I agree.

absolutely, I think I was being a little too nebulous myself

[Sticksboi05]

absolutely not. As a student of Jefferson I believe public education is one of the more wonderful things in this country. I break from a few circles of libertarianism in that I fully believe in state public education (as long as the states fund and control it, not the federal government).

Sensible policies, good curriculum, and good teachers produce educated adults. Money is not the only factor in that equation by a longshot, and quite frankly you're helping me illustrate my point. Simply throwing money at schools solves nothing. Look at DC's public schools: more spending per student than a majority of public school systems in the nation but some of the worst results and dropout rates.

throwing money at a problem does not always fix it.

Yup. Education is individual and is all about motivation. If you yourself don't care about your own education, doesn't matter where you go to school. Usually motivation for whatever purpose starts at home with the parents.

[PF Chang]

you're both wrong

healthy people eat right and exercise. There's rarely any middle ground. Simply eating right will not keep you from gaining weight. Simply exercising like crazy and eating McD's every day is not going to keep you healthy, or even within a good weight limit necessarily.

and ftr, BMI is a terrible measure of weight health.

gahhhh, I already said I agree with this. someday I'll win the tailgate

[skinfan133]

respect, most people would have sat and ****ed to themselves, what the world needs is more people willing to stand up and be heard.

the other day I was taking the bus home from work, I currently have a sprained MCL so I was sitting, I was reading a book and not paying attention but I heard a girls voice asking someone if she could sit down, I looked up to see an arab fellow glaring at a very pregnant woman. I immediately stood up and have her my seat. she thanked me and then saw me limp and asked if I was sure. I just laughed and gave up my seat. however afterward I did say to the arab fellow that in this country we give up our seat when a woman asks PERIOD. Then I made sure that the rest of the ride my backpack swung everytime we stopped and sometimes it would hit him in the back of the head.

Ive had teenagers act like that, an asian person and now an arab person so I think common courtesy is just dying out.

I see it on the Metro all the time, and it really makes me angry. If you're under 35 without significant health issues the seats aren't for you unless you're the only one standing. Especially priority seating. That really takes the cake for me.

One time at chinatown I got on the redline towards metro center and an old man got on with us. Some goth dude with headphone actually passed him in the aisle as he was going to sit down and took his seat. I was livid. I almost clocked the kid, my dad stopped me. My dad went over and made the kid get up.

[PokerPacker]

and ftr, BMI is a terrible measure of weight health.

Very true. I'm notoriously small, yet I'm 5 pounds from being considered "overweight" according to BMI

[SellersHappens]

Open question to those who dislike social programs: At what point can you say that a social program has been cut "enough"? Any and all social programs will have some people who manage to abuse the system. And as you add additional restrictions, you are causing additional pain to those who legitimately need the service. How much suffering of the needy is acceptable in order to cut off the cheaters?

[wysknz1]

I watched a lady buy groceries and pay with food stamps. Buy baby food and stuff and use the WIC card. Send through the pop, cigs, chips, dog food, cat food etc and whip out a wad of $$ that would make a drug dealer salivate and pay with that. When I went out to the parking lot she was in a BRAND SPANKIN NEW CADDY. I wanted to puke.

Social(ist) programs are OK to a point. But make them work for it some how. Clean the street sidewalks scrub graffitti. Baby sit other Mums kids whilst the other Mums go to work. IF they are completely unable to do that then OK, but most likely 90% are capable of something.

[SellersHappens]

you're both wrong

healthy people eat right and exercise. There's rarely any middle ground. Simply eating right will not keep you from gaining weight. Simply exercising like crazy and eating McD's every day is not going to keep you healthy, or even within a good weight limit necessarily.

and ftr, BMI is a terrible measure of weight health.

I honestly wonder if the relative effectiveness of diet versus exercise is genetic. I was at 170 lbs both before and after a took up a fairly intensive sport, but when I cut soda out of my diet, my weight plummeted to 153lbs over two months.

I agree about BMI though. A much better measure is body fat percentage, which does a better job at explaining what a beast Andre Carter is than his pretty high BMI.

[skinfan133]

Open question to those who dislike social programs: At what point can you say that a social program has been cut "enough"? Any and all social programs will have some people who manage to abuse the system. And as you add additional restrictions, you are causing additional pain to those who legitimately need the service. How much suffering of the needy is acceptable in order to cut off the cheaters?

restricting what you can buy with food stamps, such as trading 3 musketeers bars for rice, beans, eggs, etc. is hardly creating suffering for the needy, especially given that the food is free.

edit: in fact, there are plenty of starving people around the world who would murder other human beings for a bag of flour, think about that.

and ftr I don't dislike social programs, I dislike programs that are wasteful or unconstitutional. I dislike programs that give free food to people who don't need free food. So sorry if that is completely evil.

also, what we're discussing is simply one aspect of the many failures of the current system. People who abuse the system is hardly the end all be all of the issues.

[Sticksboi05]

SF13 , a dumb ***** like that, you should've done what they did in Seinfeld to George's car when the park in the handicap spot. Smash it to pieces and have a mob waiting for when she gets back.

[skinfan133]

SF13 , a dumb ***** like that, you should've done what they did in Seinfeld to George's car when the park in the handicap spot. Smash it to pieces and have a mob waiting for when she gets back.

I love Seinfeld, such a great show:

1YHz493rnLw

[SellersHappens]

restricting what you can buy with food stamps, such as trading 3 musketeers bars for rice, beans, eggs, etc. is hardly creating suffering for the needy, especially given that the food is free.

edit: in fact, there are plenty of starving people around the world who would murder other human beings for a bag of flour, think about that.

and ftr I don't dislike social programs, I dislike programs that are wasteful or unconstitutional. I dislike programs that give free food to people who don't need free food. So sorry if that is completely evil.

A restriction on purchasing candy with food stamps won't hurt the needy that much, I agree, but I don't think it will really do much of anything about the cheaters. Combined with the cost of implementing a program that discriminates the type of food people are able to buy, I don't think such a program would be a good idea. But I want to address the larger issue about how much the law needs to be updated to restrict cheaters.

A program that gives free food to people who need free food will invariably end up giving free food to those who do not need free food. People who get free food when they don't need it and act entitled to such assistance are very aggravating individuals, I agree. But acts which try to restrict this cheating will almost always hurt the truly needy in addition in some way. Sometimes this is acceptable, if the cost to the truly needy is minimal and the positive effects are great. But the food stamp program has already been amended quite a bit to try to cut down on cheaters, and so many of the solutions to cheaters that don't hurt the needy have already been implemented.

When one looks at the problems the people of this country face, having $100 food stamps occasionally go to entitled bums ranks pretty low, even if their existence does piss us off on an emotional level. With the high level of long term unemployment and wage stagnation, ensuring a strong safety net should rank as a much higher priority.

I did not mean to call you evil, and if my previous posts gave off that impression, I apologize.

[NewCliche21]

The human being is very adept at making split-second decisions and judgments based on brief observations. With close observation you can infer tons about someone based on brief encounters, its an evolutionary advantage.

For example, in our advanced leadership psychology course at VMI we first learn that from an initial interaction with another person, 60-70% of our initial inferences are accurate with a standard deviation of about 10%. Its the other 30% that's tougher and takes more interaction.

Gotta love the guy in school who quotes his notes. At least you're paying attention!

However, that inference (BTW, poor show on no citation! :pfft: ) does not tell you anything regarding eligibility for services.

How does what you said address buying snacks on food stamps? How does what you said address the use of the handicapped parking space?

The reality of the situation isn't what bothers me; the snap judgment is. We don't know ANYTHING about this woman, yet she's being (and I'm dramatizing but just can't think of a better word right now) demonized for an assumed reality. That's all.

Are there people who mooch? Well, yeah, but we don't know squat about this woman.

[NewCliche21]

A restriction on purchasing candy with food stamps won't hurt the needy that much, I agree, but I don't think it will really do much of anything about the cheaters. Combined with the cost of implementing a program that discriminates the type of food people are able to buy, I don't think such a program would be a good idea. But I want to address the larger issue about how much the law needs to be updated to restrict cheaters.

A program that gives free food to people who need free food will invariably end up giving free food to those who do not need free food. People who get free food when they don't need it and act entitled to such assistance are very aggravating individuals, I agree. But acts which try to restrict this cheating will almost always hurt the truly needy in addition in some way. Sometimes this is acceptable, if the cost to the truly needy is minimal and the positive effects are great. But the food stamp program has already been amended quite a bit to try to cut down on cheaters, and so many of the solutions to cheaters that don't hurt the needy have already been implemented.

When one looks at the problems the people of this country face, having $100 food stamps occasionally go to entitled bums ranks pretty low, even if their existence does piss us off on an emotional level. With the high level of long term unemployment and wage stagnation, ensuring a strong safety net should rank as a much higher priority.

I did not mean to call you evil, and if my previous posts gave off that impression, I apologize.

Absolutely perfect post.

A very small minority of people will abuse any system. Do not further victimize the intended recipients by "going after" a few dumbasses.

And to the people who are saying that these programs are a strain on the economy: Would you rather help a family who, often through not fault of their own (I'm going to say that I know a little more than the common person given my position), needs help, or see the children or parents in the family end up in jail and then YOU pay that money? The latter, for the record, could be tens to hundreds of times more expensive than the former if money's all that matters to you.