CNN: Latino lawmakers urge veto of Arizona immigration law

[Corcaigh]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but if a temporary worker did indeed over stay the visa, wouldn't their credentials be flagged in the system somewhere?

What system?

The DHS/CIS 'system' is reliant on some private worker at a border crossing (possibly someone working for an airline trying to board a plane of 300+ people in a hurry late at night) checking all the passports and noting that visitor X is leaving the country on a temporary visa type that requires a portion to be kept for immigration records. Those visa documents then have to be collected and keyed by someone into some database correctly.

I once had trouble re-entering the US because according the CIS records, I hadn't left.

[ABQCOWBOY]

What system?

The DHS/CIS 'system' is reliant on some private worker at a border crossing (possibly someone working for an airline trying to board a plane of 300+ people in a hurry late at night) checking all the passports and noting that visitor X is leaving the country on a temporary visa type that requires a portion to be kept for immigration records. Those visa documents then have to be collected and keyed by someone into some database correctly.

I once had trouble re-entering the US because according the CIS records, I hadn't left.

When I was about 22/23, me and a couple of buddies went over to Mexico to party a little bit. That was several years ago and things were much, much different at that time. Anyway, we finally did stumble back and in those days, proof of citizenship was being able to legibly say, "I am an American Citizen." Well, my buddy was so hosed that he could not say it legibly and he was pretty dark. It was pretty touch and go for awhile there.

[Larry]

IQxfBBTWoNU

[Veretax]

Okay, I guess that we the public probably could come up with a simpler way to handle this stuff then the govt, but it doesn't seem like this problem is going away anytime soon.

[Redskins Diehard]

Not sure how Guatemala applies here but....you can't get a Virginia Driver's License without proof of legal presence. http://www.dmv.state.va.us/webdoc/citizen/drivers/applying.asp

http://www.dmv.state.va.us/webdoc/pdf/dmv141.pdf

Perhaps when we discuss Guatemalan legislative actions you can provide some insight into their requirements;)

Here are the requirements in Arizona

http://mvd.azdot.gov/mvd/formsandpub/viewPDF.asp?lngProductKey=1410&lngFormInfoKey=1410

The article says "would require police to determine whether people are in the United States legally".

A driver's license does not do that.

You got something that says the OP is wrong, you look it up.

The article makes no claim that requires proving citizenship...a claim you continually make...of US citizens. It requires non-citizen aliens to carry documentation that they are in the country legally. If you go to the second link above(it is also in an earlier post) then you will see that my driver's license from the Old Dominion State serves as proof of legal presence. Now that I have looked it up for you TWICE is that enough?

[Redskins Diehard]

The bill reads "Willful failure to complete or carry an alien registration document" and no where does it state that a driver's license. Could you point out where you are seeing a driver's license qualifying as a "alien registration document"?

http://mvd.azdot.gov/mvd/formsandpub/viewPDF.asp?lngProductKey=1410&lngFormInfoKey=1410

The driver's license established legal presence.

[Destino]

The article makes no claim that requires proving citizenship...a claim you continually make...of US citizens. It requires non-citizen aliens to carry documentation that they are in the country legally. If you go to the second link above(it is also in an earlier post) then you will see that my driver's license from the Old Dominion State serves as proof of legal presence. Now that I have looked it up for you TWICE is that enough?

http://mvd.azdot.gov/mvd/formsandpub/viewPDF.asp?lngProductKey=1410&lngFormInfoKey=1410

The driver's license established legal presence.

The bill language I've seen discussed is "an alien registration document" and a driver's license, while it may have requirements of it's own, is not an alien registration document. Alien registration documents have your A# on them. That number is what they verify because you can still have paperwork AFTER you've had an application denied or had your legal status revoked.

[sacase]

"The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized."

What is the probable cause for demanding identification if they think you're here illegally? What are the standards they use? Is this one of those "Oh, the ends justify the means" situations?

Actually, your government issued ID belongs to the government, not you, which is why the government can take it back from you.

[sacase]

What are you carrying, on you, right now, that proves your citizenship?

Well if you are in VA, then you are required to provide VA with proof of your legal presence in the US, so by extension your VA license or ID would suffice.

[sacase]

:secret:That is a search. It's also compelling a person to testify against himself.

No not really, the cop is mearly asking for your ID. If you don't provide it and there is not probably cause then he can't do anything, but he can ask. Just like a cop can ask to search your car, you can say yes or no.

[Corcaigh]

Well if you are in VA, then you are required to provide VA with proof of your legal presence in the US, so by extension your VA license or ID would suffice.

Even in VA though they don't issue a driving license with expiration based on the period a non-immigrant is here for. All the driving license would show is that at one time in the past you were here legally.

[NavyDave]

Not when the parallel to Nazi Germany is accurate.

How is that? I don't see any ovens or showers where you can gas victims in Arizona set aside for illegal aliens.

[NavyDave]

And while we're at it let's not violate the Constitution, you know that pesky little part that requires probable cause before a search can be made. What probable cause would a police officer have to ask for identification documents?

Judge: Why did you think he was an illegal?

Officer: Because he looked like an illegal.

Judge: Was he an illegal?

Officer: Uhhh, no. And if the answer was YES??

Judge: So you used racial profiling as your probable cause in order to make search against an innocent person?

Officer: Uhhh...yes. And when the profiling prevents criminals from staying in the USA is it still a bad thing??

Yeah this law will work out real swell.

BTW, even if the gov signs it there will be immediate legal action against it and it'll be at SCOTUS in no time, where hopefully it'll get tossed and the idiot legislators and who crafted and voted for the bill get a huge SCOTUS ho-slap!

Yeah lets continue to do nothing when it comes to securing the border, so more citizens like that rancher can be murdered by an illegal alien because illegal aliens should be able to utilize the Rights of our US Constitution

Liberals also do not want the National Guard or the military on both borders either since that has to be racist, right??

[Destino]

Yeah lets continue to do nothing when it comes to securing the border, so more citizens like that rancher can be murdered by an illegal alien because illegal aliens should be able to utilize the Rights of our US Constitution

Liberals also do not want the National Guard or the military on both borders either since that has to be racist, right??

Who wants to do nothing? The difference is some of us want to apply a little brain power instead of over compensating and applying the big yellow SUV solution. You don't need the national guard and you don't need the military to stop illegals seeking employment. You need laws targeting employers and a federal government that makes verifying status and when the status expires easy. Throw hiring managers and individuals hiring illegals in jail and the problem will start to go away faster than you can build a fence.

The problem is that you have TWO border problems that conservatives like to disingenuously blend. You have illegals seeking work and you have a rather enormous drug war. They are not the same thing. The drug cartels aren't going to give a damn about a fence, a national guard, or a military presence. They have infiltrated all of the above before and there is no reason to think they would be able too again.

[Redskins Diehard]

Who wants to do nothing? The difference is some of us want to apply a little brain power instead of over compensating and applying the big yellow SUV solution. You don't need the national guard and you don't need the military to stop illegals seeking employment. You need laws targeting employers and a federal government that makes verifying status and when the status expires easy. Throw hiring managers and individuals hiring illegals in jail and the problem will start to go away faster than you can build a fence.

The problem is that you have TWO border problems that conservatives like to disingenuously blend. You have illegals seeking work and you have a rather enormous drug war. They are not the same thing. The drug cartels aren't going to give a damn about a fence, a national guard, or a military presence. They have infiltrated all of the above before and there is no reason to think they would be able too again.

This law appears to address the illegals seeking work piece as well. "It also targets those who hire illegal immigrant day laborers or knowingly transport them."

I agree that the drug problem and the work problem are 2 very different issues and as such require 2 different approaches.

[Larry]

Well if you are in VA, then you are required to provide VA with proof of your legal presence in the US, so by extension your VA license or ID would suffice.

Yes, many states recently began doing that, within the last year or so.

And many, many, people have driver's licenses which they obtained before such procedures went into effect.

(Such as myself. As I stated previously, I got my current DL from a web page. And it's still good for 4 more years.)

[GoSkins561]

How is that? I don't see any ovens or showers where you can gas victims in Arizona set aside for illegal aliens.

Its the whole "if you're against illegal immigration, you must have a problem with hispanic people" stance.

One would think Latinos that came here legally would be leading the battle against illegal immigration.

[The 12th Commandment]

Yeah lets continue to do nothing when it comes to securing the border, so more citizens like that rancher can be murdered by an illegal alien because illegal aliens should be able to utilize the Rights of our US Constitution

If it were an illegal alien that did it he wouldn't have run straight back to mexico. It was a smuggler and there's a distinction. The smuggler doesn't want to come here and only crosses to make his delivery the illegal alien is coming for work and to send money back to their family. This is a drug issue not a immigration issue and certain parties are confusing the issues on purpose to forward their immigration policies.

Of course it is a border issue and both smuggling and immigration are impacted by our border policies. Where we probably don't agree is that a policy consisting only of enforcement is the answer.

[ABQCOWBOY]

Until an effective policy is put in place by our own Government, I have very difficult time telling Arizona how they should manage there problem in there own state. This problem has existed for well over 20 years now and nothing, to speak of, has been done about it. It's getting worse.

[SonnySide]

For every decent, hard working person crossing the border, there is a gang-banger, drug dealer or welfare queen also making the trek.

We live in a time where REAL unemployment is in the mid double digits....we DON'T need anybody else coming into the country, legal or otherwise until we start taking care of the mess being created in Washington.

Of course, it's all a moot point-- the White House and their cohorts in Congress want to legalize millions of illegals to shore up their base...

[Corcaigh]

Border security related to drugs and terrorism is a big deal.

Putting the onus on local law enforcement to check on the legal presence of 20 million + is the wrong approach to solve the problem of people here illegally looking for better paid employment.

Getting robust enforcement of employment laws with employers, and making sure tools are available and accurate such as the e-verify employment database would make a greater difference. If there is better paying work here, but no employment checks, and no consequences for illegal employers then there will always be significant illegal immigration. If certain industries need large volumes of cheap, temporary labor then implement an appropriate temporary visa program to support it rather than ignoring the problem and the power of these vested interests. Over 50 Million people already visit the USA each year on legal temporary visas and yet we refuse to put in place an appropriate temporary worker visa program which would help curb illegal immigration.

[No_Pressure]

I hate illegal immigration to a great extent but the lawmakers in AZ opposing this bill are correct. It does authorize discrimination. If a black man/woman or a white man/woman are pulled over in Arizona they won't be questioned on their citizenship. Hispanic men/women will be questioned. The police will be able to target individuals based on their race and ethnicity.

At the same time how else do you get to deport illegal immigrants. The INS clearly isn't doing it's job properly and Arizona has a lot of problems that derive from illegal immigration. They're trying to do something to put a stop to it now by taking matters into their own hands but they aren't going about it properly.

I think if the state wants to take this issue into its own hands, tying up the police force checking the legal status of every person they stop and tying up the legal system with court cases about whether someone is a legal resident or not is a whole can of worms in itself.

[Mooka]

IMO, this bill simply allows Arizona to take illegals and ship them to federal facilities. Not only that, but for all offenses listed it takes the offender, holds them, charges them where the money goes into some account, then ships them off to federal facilities if they are indeed an illegal.

i.e.

Its all about $$$.

I will say it again. I am open to figuring out another way to deal with this issue but what would that be?

Pass the same bill, but take these out:

1. Requires a reasonable attempt to be made to determine the immigration status of a person during any legitimate contact made by an official or agency of the state or a county, city, town or political subdivision (political subdivision) if reasonable suspicion exists that the person is an alien who is unlawfully present in the U.S.

Or specify reasonable suspicion.

-The whole section on trespassing. Looks kinda iffy.

-The whole section on Unlawful Stopping and Solicitation of Work. Determined simply by where the person stops their car to hire people off the street. (meaningless, the workers will just stand closer to the home depot parking lot)

-Also weary of the Unlawful Transporting. Maybe just a few words here or there.

[GoSkins561]

I hate illegal immigration to a great extent but the lawmakers in AZ opposing this bill are correct. It does authorize discrimination. If a black man/woman or a white man/woman are pulled over in Arizona they won't be questioned on their citizenship. Hispanic men/women will be questioned. The police will be able to target individuals based on their race and ethnicity.

At the same time how else do you get to deport illegal immigrants. The INS clearly isn't doing it's job properly and Arizona has a lot of problems that derive from illegal immigration. They're trying to do something to put a stop to it now by taking matters into their own hands but they aren't going about it properly.

I think if the state wants to take this issue into its own hands, tying up the police force checking the legal status of every person they stop and tying up the legal system with court cases about whether someone is a legal resident or not is a whole can of worms in itself.

Ummm, we are talking about talking about illegal immigration, and 95 percent of the problem lies with Hispanics.

[Destino]

This law appears to address the illegals seeking work piece as well. "It also targets those who hire illegal immigrant day laborers or knowingly transport them."

not harshly enough but I agree with that side of it. I'd be a huge fan of the law if it didn't have mandate racial profiling.