ABQCOWBOY Posted April 21, 2010 Share Posted April 21, 2010 So citizens who happen to look like illegal immigrants need to just get over it when they are illegally searched? They are not being searched. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Veretax Posted April 21, 2010 Share Posted April 21, 2010 This is likely talking to checks at the border, nothing to see here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Redskins Diehard Posted April 21, 2010 Share Posted April 21, 2010 Yep, you're talking passport, birth certificate etc. I can go to Guatemala and get a driver's license that does not mean that I'm a Guatemalan citizen. Not sure how Guatemala applies here but....you can't get a Virginia Driver's License without proof of legal presence. http://www.dmv.state.va.us/webdoc/citizen/drivers/applying.asp http://www.dmv.state.va.us/webdoc/pdf/dmv141.pdf Perhaps when we discuss Guatemalan legislative actions you can provide some insight into their requirements;) Here are the requirements in Arizona http://mvd.azdot.gov/mvd/formsandpub/viewPDF.asp?lngProductKey=1410&lngFormInfoKey=1410 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ABQCOWBOY Posted April 21, 2010 Share Posted April 21, 2010 I'm not for this bill but couldn't the cop just run his driver's license in a database and tell if he's legal citizen or not? A good point here I think but in reality, this is a State Law specific to Arizona so it would have no barring on anybody who did not live in Arizona. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AsburySkinsFan Posted April 21, 2010 Share Posted April 21, 2010 You have yet to prove that this is unconstitutional. OMGness man read the Constitution yourself. Look up illegal search and seizure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AsburySkinsFan Posted April 21, 2010 Share Posted April 21, 2010 Not sure how Guatemala applies here but....you can't get a Virginia Driver's License without proof of legal presence. http://www.dmv.state.va.us/webdoc/citizen/drivers/applying.asphttp://www.dmv.state.va.us/webdoc/pdf/dmv141.pdf And if said person does not have a driver's license? What about someone who is under 16 years old? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Redskins Diehard Posted April 21, 2010 Share Posted April 21, 2010 What are you carrying, on you, right now, that proves your citizenship? Looked to me like the law applies to proof of legal presence...not citizenship Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AsburySkinsFan Posted April 21, 2010 Share Posted April 21, 2010 They are not being searched. Dude any time a police officer demands for you to produce anything it IS a search, just because they didn't pat you down doesn't make it NOT a search. And as Larry said it is requiring you to testify against yourself which is a violation of your 5th Amendment rights. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sjinhan Posted April 21, 2010 Share Posted April 21, 2010 I know exactly how this is going to go... I know because I worked in Laredo,TX for 2 years. Every time anyone leaves the city, you have go through a check point in which the border patrols asks you if you are an US citizen. The check points on the highways werent too bad but EVERY SINGLE time I flew out of Laredo, I got questioned and this is how it went... Border Patrol ask white couple: Are you American citizen? White couple: yes Border Patrol ask another white dude: Are you American citizen? White dude: yes Border Patrol asks me: Are you American citizen? me: yes Border Patrol asks me: Where were you born? me: Seoul, Korea Border Patrol asks me: How did you become a US citizen? me: I got naturalized in 2000. Border Patrol asks me: Where did you get naturalized? me: Arlington, VA Border Patrol asks me: Why are you doing in Laredo me: I moved here for work. Border Patrol asks me: Can I see your ID? me: ok (and I show him my driver's license) Border Patrol tells me: Ok please wait here (he takes my ID and comes back 5-10 min later) Border Patrol tells me: Ok thank you. I tell the white couple and dude in front of me who is watching this: Well I guess my "yes" sounds different than yours... Now with that Arizona law bascially that can happen anywhere in the state and just at the border patrol check points as I had to deal with around Laredo. So ABQCOWBOY does that process sound "right"? Bascially know as an US citizen, I can't walk down the street without an ID cause you know since a cop can asks for my ID since I look like an immigrant which I am... if I don't produce an ID on the spot then cop can now detain me? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ABQCOWBOY Posted April 21, 2010 Share Posted April 21, 2010 Ok fine. What if they say "no"? Does the cop get to arrest them? What if they're a legal hispanic in a hurry on a bad day, and the cop is having a bad day as well? What if he doesn't ask the guy just a few feet away who doesn't speak any English but instead can only speak Russian? And if the cop has no authority once somebody says no, then what is the point?And the 4th and 5th amendments apply to your person, or else any cop could stop you and search you for no reason at all. I don't know. If they say no, I would imagine that the issue would be escalated and other means of providing proof would be necessary. The rest of this is what if's etc. The same thing can happen if your walking down the street and your under age. If your having a bad day and the cop is having a bad day, my advice would be to cooperate because if you don't, your day is probably going to get worse in a big hurry. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GoSkins561 Posted April 21, 2010 Share Posted April 21, 2010 What are you carrying, on you, right now, that proves your citizenship? What I have is a drivers license, in order to get it I needed to prove I was a citizen by providing my social security card, birth certificate and another form of I.D. People that are not suppose to be here usually do not have the proper identification. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AsburySkinsFan Posted April 21, 2010 Share Posted April 21, 2010 Looked to me like the law applies to proof of legal presence...not citizenship 14 year old kid walking down the street...hmmm looks like an illegal. "Hey boy, cough up some proof of residency." "Officer I was born at Flagstaff Memorial (fictitious I think)" "Not good enough son, I need proof." "Wait, we just studied the Constitution in my civics class, isn't this a violation of my 4th and 5th Amendment rights." "Doesn't matter son, the legislature of Arizona says I can do this now regardless of what the Constitution says." "Oh well then I'm screwed because I'm staying with a neighbor while my parents are on vacation and my birth certificate is in a safe deposit box at the bank." "Too bad kid, in the car you're going to jail." :doh: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ABQCOWBOY Posted April 21, 2010 Share Posted April 21, 2010 Dude any time a police officer demands for you to produce anything it IS a search, just because they didn't pat you down doesn't make it NOT a search. And as Larry said it is requiring you to testify against yourself which is a violation of your 5th Amendment rights. If you are illegal and you do not have the required documentation, then you are breaking the law, which would seem to fulfill the necessary probable cause. If you are not illegal, then you are not going to get arrested and so, you are not testifying against yourself because there are no charges upon which to testify. It is not illegal to ask an immigrant for papers. That law is already on the books. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sjinhan Posted April 21, 2010 Share Posted April 21, 2010 What I have is a drivers license, in order to get it I needed to prove I was a citizen by providing my social security card, birth certificate and another form of I.D. People that are not suppose to be here usually do not have the proper identification. ok GoSkins561... so now according that law.. YOU as a LAWFUL CITIZEN have to carry an ID with you at ALL TIMES because if the cop decides on his own ituition that eh you dont look like you are suppose to here and you dont provide an ID, he can detain you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sjinhan Posted April 21, 2010 Share Posted April 21, 2010 If you are illegal and you do not have the required documentation, then you are breaking the law, which would seem to fulfill the necessary probable cause. If you are not illegal, then you are not going to get arrested and so, you are not testifying against yourself because there are no charges upon which to testify.It is not illegal to ask an immigrant for papers. That law is already on the books. ok excuse for the yelling I am about to do... FORGET THE ILLEGALS, I DON'T GIVE A #@$@#$ ABOUT THEM!!! WHAT ABOUT REST OF US WHO ARE US CITIZENS BUT NOW WE HAVE TO CARRY AN ID WITH US AT ALL TIME???? bascially when the cop needs to make that decision to detain you or not.. its your word against his... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AsburySkinsFan Posted April 21, 2010 Share Posted April 21, 2010 If you are illegal and you do not have the required documentation, then you are breaking the law, which would seem to fulfill the necessary probable cause. Oh my goodness...you don't understand probable cause at all...probable cause is needed BEFORE a search can be done. If you are not illegal, then you are not going to get arrested and so, you are not testifying against yourself because there are no charges upon which to testify. Even if you are illegal you cannot by the Constitution be forced to testify against yourself...hence "I plead the 5th". It is not illegal to ask an immigrant for papers. That law is already on the books. You're right, and if they aren't an immigrant then you can't force them to produce what the law doesn't require them to carry which is what this law does, not to mention this whole thing is based off racial profiling as the form of probable cause. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ABQCOWBOY Posted April 21, 2010 Share Posted April 21, 2010 14 year old kid walking down the street...hmmm looks like an illegal. "Hey boy, cough up some proof of residency." "Officer I was born at Flagstaff Memorial (fictitious I think)" "Not good enough son, I need proof." "Wait, we just studied the Constitution in my civics class, isn't this a violation of my 4th and 5th Amendment rights." "Doesn't matter son, the legislature of Arizona says I can do this now regardless of what the Constitution says." "Oh well then I'm screwed because I'm staying with a neighbor while my parents are on vacation and my birth certificate is in a safe deposit box at the bank." "Too bad kid, in the car you're going to jail." :doh: What would the Wife or Husband of somebody who was killed by an illegal immigrant say if the law were repealed I wonder? The bigger problem, as I see it, is the wide spread adoption of carrying guns as legal. You have to find a way to protect the citizens or they will find a way to try and protect themselves and some the alternatives may be worse then what you see here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AsburySkinsFan Posted April 21, 2010 Share Posted April 21, 2010 ok excuse for the yelling I am about to do...FORGET THE ILLEGALS, I DON'T GIVE A #@$@#$ ABOUT THEM!!! WHAT ABOUT REST OF US WHO ARE US CITIZENS BUT NOW WE HAVE TO CARRY AN ID WITH US AT ALL TIME???? Apparently yes, you need to be noble and surrender your Constitutionally protected rights all because you might look like an illegal. bascially when the cop needs to make that decision to detain you or not.. its your word against his... Judge: Why did you stop him? Officer: He looked like an illegal. Defendant: Did not. Officer: Did too. Defendant: Did not. Officer: Did too. Defendant: Did not. Officer: Did too. Defendant: Did not. Officer: Did too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AsburySkinsFan Posted April 21, 2010 Share Posted April 21, 2010 What would the Wife or Husband of somebody who was killed by an illegal immigrant say if the law were repealed I wonder? "I am sorry for your loss. But we in America believe in a free society, and sometimes people take advantage of that freedom, but that doesn't mean we surrender our freedom for an illusion of safety." The bigger problem, as I see it, is the wide spread adoption of carrying guns as legal. You have to find a way to protect the citizens or they will find a way to try and protect themselves and some the alternatives may be worse then what you see here. Ok, I'm trying really hard to not read this as "Wow, I'm getting my arse handed to me on this thing, I'd better change the subject." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sjinhan Posted April 21, 2010 Share Posted April 21, 2010 Apparently yes, you need to be noble and surrender your Constitutionally protected rights all because you might look like an illegal.Judge: Why did you stop him? Officer: He looked like an illegal. Defendant: Did not. Officer: Did too. Defendant: Did not. Officer: Did too. Defendant: Did not. Officer: Did too. Defendant: Did not. Officer: Did too. as I stated.. I lived on the border and they have check points where they can do this to you. They can legally detain you for 24 hrs at the check point. I guess now it can happen to me as I just walk down the street now... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Redskins Diehard Posted April 21, 2010 Share Posted April 21, 2010 14 year old kid walking down the street...hmmm looks like an illegal. "Hey boy, cough up some proof of residency." "Officer I was born at Flagstaff Memorial (fictitious I think)" "Not good enough son, I need proof." "Wait, we just studied the Constitution in my civics class, isn't this a violation of my 4th and 5th Amendment rights." "Doesn't matter son, the legislature of Arizona says I can do this now regardless of what the Constitution says." "Oh well then I'm screwed because I'm staying with a neighbor while my parents are on vacation and my birth certificate is in a safe deposit box at the bank." "Too bad kid, in the car you're going to jail." :doh: You are writing this as if I am defending or supporting this law. I was simply pointing out that your Guatemalan analogy was not applicable. But on the point of the 14 year old Civics whizkid that you mention...I really don't see the jails being filled with 14 year old kids whose parents are on vacation and don't have access to their birth certificate. Or any other 14 year old kids for that matter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Redskins Diehard Posted April 21, 2010 Share Posted April 21, 2010 Apparently yes, you need to be noble and surrender your Constitutionally protected rights all because you might look like an illegal.Judge: Why did you stop him? Officer: He looked like an illegal. Defendant: Did not. Officer: Did too. Defendant: Did not. Officer: Did too. Defendant: Did not. Officer: Did too. Defendant: Did not. Officer: Did too. Dude, you should go take in a court proceeding some time...you seem like you have no clue how they unfold. (Judge asks very few questions to anyone other than the attorneys.) Or you could find that 14 year old born in Flagstaff...he probably knows! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ABQCOWBOY Posted April 21, 2010 Share Posted April 21, 2010 Oh my goodness...you don't understand probable cause at all...probable cause is needed BEFORE a search can be done. Perhaps, but I understand this. The 4th Amendment doesn't apply to illegals. Even if you are illegal you cannot by the Constitution be forced to testify against yourself...hence "I plead the 5th". You are not testifying against yourself because you are not being prosecuted. You are being deported. You're right, and if they aren't an immigrant then you can't force them to produce what the law doesn't require them to carry which is what this law does, not to mention this whole thing is based off racial profiling as the form of probable cause. I am certain that the Law has figured out a way to deal with this issue. If they haven't, then it will challenged. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sjinhan Posted April 21, 2010 Share Posted April 21, 2010 Dude, you should go take in a court proceeding some time...you seem like you have no clue how they unfold. (Judge asks very few questions to anyone other than the attorneys.) Or you could find that 14 year old born in Flagstaff...he probably knows! the problem is that you are an american citizen but now because cop doesnt think you dont look "american" enough, and you dont have an ID on you.. then cop can force you go to court to prove your status... Mind as well have a national ID and photo of every single American. Oh wait I thought Republicans were against that... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AsburySkinsFan Posted April 21, 2010 Share Posted April 21, 2010 You are writing this as if I am defending or supporting this law. I was simply pointing out that your Guatemalan analogy was not applicable. Sorry that was not really to you, I understand what you meant though and the point was well taken. But on the point of the 14 year old Civics whizkid that you mention...I really don't see the jails being filled with 14 year old kids whose parents are on vacation and don't have access to their birth certificate. Or any other 14 year old kids for that matter. Nope one would be too many, what's more is that in America that is not how we determine the quality or legality of a law. The measure is not "Well I doubt there will be too many citizens illegally searched" the measure is the Constitution. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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