Corcaigh Posted April 21, 2010 Share Posted April 21, 2010 And make sure that it's the long birth certificate. And it must be the original one you got when you were born, too. Not something that some state government printed up, later. That only applies if you're not white and have a funny name. I wonder how well Bubba will react to being stopped and asked for his papers? And again I'm interested in what the standard is for a police officer to suspect that someone is here illegally? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry Posted April 21, 2010 Share Posted April 21, 2010 The 4th. Jeez dude, you can't be that oblivious, can you? And, I would argue, the 5th, as well. Since you're demanding that a suspect prove to you that he isn't committing a crime. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GoSkins561 Posted April 21, 2010 Share Posted April 21, 2010 As noted non-US citizens who are here legally are required to carry proof of legal presence "at all times".How many people carry proof of US citizenship? How many people don't have possession of documents that assert that they are a US citizen? i.e. a passport or birth cert? Before my Mom became a citizen she requiered to carry her green card. I remember one time she lost her wallet, and she was most worried about her green card, she was almost in tears. I have no problem with giving people a little time to provide proof, if they can't provide any type of proof, more than likely they are here illegally. If so, see ya. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AsburySkinsFan Posted April 21, 2010 Share Posted April 21, 2010 Those are not proof of citizenship or legal presence. Yep, you're talking passport, birth certificate etc. I can go to Guatemala and get a driver's license that does not mean that I'm a Guatemalan citizen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
China Posted April 21, 2010 Author Share Posted April 21, 2010 Actually, the courts have said that yes, they can. I don't agree with that ruling. Think the Constitution says otherwise. But, as things stand right now in the US, yes, they can. What the United States Supreme Court held in Hiibel v. Sixth Judicial Dist. Court (2004) 542 U.S. 177, was that a state could make it a crime for a person to refuse to identify himself (i.e., tell the officer his name and address) when lawfully detained for criminal activity. Note that the Supreme Court did NOT say that any kind of identification papers could be required, nor did they say that police officers could ordinarily arrest someone for refusing to identify himself absent a state law permitting that arrest. There is no law in the United States requiring everybody to carry ID, at least not yet.A person CANNOT be arrested just for failing to identify himself or failing to have ID. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GhostofSparta Posted April 21, 2010 Share Posted April 21, 2010 And, I would argue, the 5th, as well. Since you're demanding that a suspect prove to you that he isn't committing a crime. That's true as well. So that's really 2 that this would violate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AsburySkinsFan Posted April 21, 2010 Share Posted April 21, 2010 And, I would argue, the 5th, as well. Since you're demanding that a suspect prove to you that he isn't committing a crime. Ohh hadn't even thought about that one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry Posted April 21, 2010 Share Posted April 21, 2010 It does matter. If its a Constitutional Rights issue, as you eluded to earlier, then I would think that it matters. The problem is that you can't continue to have American Citizens showing up dead. That's bad for everybody. Until a way can be found to correct those kinds of problems, I don't see any other way to help control the problem but, as I said earlier, I am open to any alternatives. And we must do something about Global Warming, right this instant. That doesn't have anything to do with this thread, either. Just like your "American citizens turning up dead". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ABQCOWBOY Posted April 21, 2010 Share Posted April 21, 2010 The 4th. Jeez dude, you can't be that oblivious, can you? Illegal Search and Seizure? I don't think that either is being violated by simply asking for Proof of Citizenship. I could be wrong but I would have to see and understand why. Perhaps I am oblivious. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AsburySkinsFan Posted April 21, 2010 Share Posted April 21, 2010 What the United States Supreme Court held in Hiibel v. Sixth Judicial Dist. Court (2004) 542 U.S. 177, was that a state could make it a crime for a person to refuse to identify himself (i.e., tell the officer his name and address) when lawfully detained for criminal activity. Note that the Supreme Court did NOT say that any kind of identification papers could be required, nor did they say that police officers could ordinarily arrest someone for refusing to identify himself absent a state law permitting that arrest. There is no law in the United States requiring everybody to carry ID, at least not yet.A person CANNOT be arrested just for failing to identify himself or failing to have ID. Thanks China. Link? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corcaigh Posted April 21, 2010 Share Posted April 21, 2010 Before my Mom became a citizen she requiered to carry her green card. I remember one time she lost her wallet, and she was most worried about her green card, she was almost in tears.I have no problem with giving people a little time to provide proof, if they can't provide any type of proof, more than likely they are here illegally. If so, see ya. Trust me, I well understand the situation for non-citizens, including permanent residents, as I explained. They are already required by Federal law to carry proof of legal presence. I'm asking about citizens. What do they carry and what can they offer if they don't have in their possession either a valid passport or a birth certificate? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
China Posted April 21, 2010 Author Share Posted April 21, 2010 Thanks China. Link? Link Note this at the link as well: But failure to provide identification to a police officer can be considered interfering with the officer's performance of their duties, which can get you in trouble. The Supreme Court said that withholding ID from a police officer is not a protected activity under the 1st Amendment Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AsburySkinsFan Posted April 21, 2010 Share Posted April 21, 2010 Illegal Search and Seizure? I don't think that either is being violated by simply asking for Proof of Citizenship. I could be wrong but I would have to see and understand why. Perhaps I am oblivious. In order for a police officer to conduct a legal search he/she has to have either a judge issued warrant, or probable cause. In this case what would be the basis of the warrant or the basis for probable cause? If the police officer cannot satisfy either one of those two then the search is deemed illegal based on the 4th Amendment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GhostofSparta Posted April 21, 2010 Share Posted April 21, 2010 Illegal Search and Seizure? I don't think that either is being violated by simply asking for Proof of Citizenship. I could be wrong but I would have to see and understand why. Perhaps I am oblivious. "The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized." What is the probable cause for demanding identification if they think you're here illegally? What are the standards they use? Is this one of those "Oh, the ends justify the means" situations? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ABQCOWBOY Posted April 21, 2010 Share Posted April 21, 2010 And we must do something about Global Warming, right this instant. That doesn't have anything to do with this thread, either. Just like your "American citizens turning up dead". It has everything to do with this. Global warming does not but protecting American Citizens is at the heart of the issue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AsburySkinsFan Posted April 21, 2010 Share Posted April 21, 2010 LinkNote this at the link as well: The first part talked about giving name and addresses, does it specifically stipulate forms of ID? BTW, even if you hand the police officer a driver's license or other ID card that is not a form of ID that proves citizenship. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AsburySkinsFan Posted April 21, 2010 Share Posted April 21, 2010 It has everything to do with this. Global warming does not but protecting American Citizens is at the heart of the issue. Protecting American Citizens? So this is counter terrorism? Well if that's the case then why didn't this law come from Maine or Montana. Heck after all the 9/11 terrorists came through Canada not Mexico. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AsburySkinsFan Posted April 21, 2010 Share Posted April 21, 2010 What is the probable cause for demanding identification if they think you're here illegally? What are the standards they use? Is this one of those "Oh, the ends justify the means" situations? This is exactly what this law is, and those who support it are saying the same thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ABQCOWBOY Posted April 21, 2010 Share Posted April 21, 2010 "The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized."What is the probable cause for demanding identification if they think you're here illegally? What are the standards they use? Is this one of those "Oh, the ends justify the means" situations? It seems to me that this applies to personal property and or a persons home or dwelling. This has nothing at all to do with asking for identification of Citizenship. You are simply asking them to provide what they are supposed to already have on them. I will say it again. I am open to figuring out another way to deal with this issue but what would that be? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry Posted April 21, 2010 Share Posted April 21, 2010 Where? What ruling?BTW, are they asking for state issued identification, like a driver's license? If so that's a different matter altogether. (Replying to lots of people who questioned my assertion.) Actually, what I was thinking of was the "stop and frisk" rules. But a quick search for quotable materials reveals to me that supposedly this authority does actually require some burden of suspicion on the officer's part. (Unlike what I'd heard.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GoSkins561 Posted April 21, 2010 Share Posted April 21, 2010 US citizens are not required to carry ID. I can walk down the street and do not need to carry ID. True, I thought people are required to carry I.D.. I just looked it up, but if you are put into a situation where I.D is required, and you don't have any, the police can detain you until proof of identification is provided. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ABQCOWBOY Posted April 21, 2010 Share Posted April 21, 2010 Protecting American Citizens? So this is counter terrorism? Well if that's the case then why didn't this law come from Maine or Montana. Heck after all the 9/11 terrorists came through Canada not Mexico. I never said it was Terrorism. I suppose you can look at it that way, if you wish. I don't know. However, the Citizens of Arizona do have the right to demand protection. How do you provide that? That's the question right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry Posted April 21, 2010 Share Posted April 21, 2010 True, I thought people are required to carry I.D.. I just looked it up, but if you are put into a situation where I.D is required, and you don't have any, the police can detain you until proof of identification is provided. What are you carrying, on you, right now, that proves your citizenship? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
China Posted April 21, 2010 Author Share Posted April 21, 2010 True, I thought people are required to carry I.D.. I just looked it up, but if you are put into a situation where I.D is required, and you don't have any, the police can detain you until proof of identification is provided. True that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ABQCOWBOY Posted April 21, 2010 Share Posted April 21, 2010 In order for a police officer to conduct a legal search he/she has to have either a judge issued warrant, or probable cause. In this case what would be the basis of the warrant or the basis for probable cause? If the police officer cannot satisfy either one of those two then the search is deemed illegal based on the 4th Amendment. Where is the Search? All you are doing is asking for proof of Citizenship. There is no search involved at that point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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