sjinhan Posted April 21, 2010 Share Posted April 21, 2010 I am certain that the Law has figured out a way to deal with this issue. If they haven't, then it will challenged. and yes that is why its being challenged now.. the law should get vetoed if passed... the immigration laws at the federal level already requires the green card or people with visas to have an ID with them at all times. This law is trying to expand that by allowing cops to use 'not looking american" as a probably cause to ask for the ID. By doing that it puts ALL Americans in a situation where we HAVE to carry an ID at all times. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Redskins Diehard Posted April 21, 2010 Share Posted April 21, 2010 the problem is that you are an american citizen but now because cop doesnt think you dont look "american" enough, and you dont have an ID on you.. then cop can force you go to court to prove your status...Mind as well have a national ID and photo of every single American. Oh wait I thought Republicans were against that... Wait for what? Yes, it does appear that a US citizen that is suspected of being here illegally and does not carry proof of legal presence(like a drivers license) would potentially run into some trouble. Do a lot of citizens really run around without any form of state issued ID? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AsburySkinsFan Posted April 21, 2010 Share Posted April 21, 2010 Perhaps, but I understand this. The 4th Amendment doesn't apply to illegals. You're right, it applies to the government and the government is restricted from illegally searching ANYONE. You are not testifying against yourself because you are not being prosecuted. You are being deported. Yes you are, a police search is the gathering stage of a prosecution. I am certain that the Law has figured out a way to deal with this issue. If they haven't, then it will challenged. Sorry, but this is the whole law. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ABQCOWBOY Posted April 21, 2010 Share Posted April 21, 2010 "I am sorry for your loss. But we in America believe in a free society, and sometimes people take advantage of that freedom, but that doesn't mean we surrender our freedom for an illusion of safety." I am sorry for your loss? As American Citizens, do we not have the Constitutional Right to expect protection against all enemies, foreign and domestic? Ok, I'm trying really hard to not read this as "Wow, I'm getting my arse handed to me on this thing, I'd better change the subject." Are you really? Post 55 Quote: Originally Posted by ABQCOWBOY View Post I never said it was Terrorism. I suppose you can look at it that way, if you wish. I don't know. However, the Citizens of Arizona do have the right to demand protection. How do you provide that? That's the question right? If you want to talk immigration reform that's fine, start a new thread. This is about the Constitutionality of THIS bill in Arizona. And you don't make bad and unConstitutional law just because you have a problem in your state. __________________ If you say so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sjinhan Posted April 21, 2010 Share Posted April 21, 2010 Wait for what? Yes, it does appear that a US citizen that is suspected of being here illegally and does not carry proof of legal presence(like a drivers license) would potentially run into some trouble. Do a lot of citizens really run around without any form of state issued ID? Ok so at least you can admit that this law does have that implication for US citizens... so follow up question.. is it right in the USA.. I, being of asian descent, basically HAVE to carry an ID with me at all times while my friend, who is white, bascailly do not have to since I would be whole more prone to these searches? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ABQCOWBOY Posted April 21, 2010 Share Posted April 21, 2010 You're right, it applies to the government and the government is restricted from illegally searching ANYONE. This is not correct. Especially on the boarder. You can be searched and asked to provide proof of citizenship without cause. Yes you are, a police search is the gathering stage of a prosecution. But that does not mean that all cases are prosecuted. In those that are, your probably correct. In those that are not, there is no prosecution so there is no basis for testifying against yourself. Sorry, but this is the whole law. According to who? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AsburySkinsFan Posted April 21, 2010 Share Posted April 21, 2010 Wait for what? Yes, it does appear that a US citizen that is suspected of being here illegally and does not carry proof of legal presence(like a drivers license) would potentially run into some trouble. Yah think?! Do a lot of citizens really run around without any form of state issued ID? Who cares how many really run around with or without ID, that is wholly irrelevant because citizens are NOT legally required to carry ID on their persons at all times. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Destino Posted April 21, 2010 Share Posted April 21, 2010 So basically if you have brown skin and forget to carry multiple forms of ID while you're running out to grab a coffee in the morning you run the risk of ending up in a holding cell. Screw the idiots that drafted this law and screw the idiots that support it. Frankly I hope every legal Hispanic, and their children, crosses the state of Arizona off their list of places to do any kind of business or live. I have. Let that wing nut hell hole rot in the desert sun. One of you immigration experts... tell me what is the cost of replacing a misplaced or damaged green card? What is the process? Why don't you educate yourself on why legal immigrants tend to not carry them around and instead carry their driver's licenses around. Look it up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ABQCOWBOY Posted April 21, 2010 Share Posted April 21, 2010 the problem is that you are an american citizen but now because cop doesnt think you dont look "american" enough, and you dont have an ID on you.. then cop can force you go to court to prove your status... I have not read that this would be the case or what the procedure would be for this. It is difficult for me to believe that a law would be passed without taking this obvious situation into account and providing for such an eventuality. I suppose we will see. Mind as well have a national ID and photo of every single American. Oh wait I thought Republicans were against that... Are you referring to Card Check? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AsburySkinsFan Posted April 21, 2010 Share Posted April 21, 2010 This is not correct. Especially on the border. You can be searched and asked to provide proof of citizenship without cause. Crossing the border IS cause, once you're in a citizen does not need to provide proof of residency. FAIL again. But that does not mean that all cases are prosecuted. In those that are, your probably correct. In those that are not, there is no prosecution so there is no basis for testifying against yourself. Its irrelevant if not all cases are prosecuted, its still the gathering stage of a prosecution and it still needs probable cause and or a search warrant. What you are suggesting is that it would only be illegally forcing someone to testify against themselves if they were prosecuted, the problem is that the case would be thrown out because the person was unconstitutionally forced to testify against themselves. According to who? Read the bill. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Destino Posted April 21, 2010 Share Posted April 21, 2010 I have not read that this would be the case or what the procedure would be for this. It is difficult for me to believe that a law would be passed without taking this obvious situation into account and providing for such an eventuality. I suppose we will see. Or worse they could not believe you and put you in a holding cell until they can find out either way. No matter how you look at it "looking" like an immigrant is now just cause in Arizona. Thank you republicans for "Let me see your papers!" to the United States. Should have expected you to target skins color with it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sjinhan Posted April 21, 2010 Share Posted April 21, 2010 I have not read that this would be the case or what the procedure would be for this. It is difficult for me to believe that a law would be passed without taking this obvious situation into account and providing for such an eventuality. I suppose we will see.Are you referring to Card Check? ok here... The legislature in that state has just passed a measure that would require police officers to check the immigration status of anyone if there is a “reasonable suspicion” that person may be in the country illegally. The governor, Jan Brewer, a Republican, is now weighing whether to sign the bill. reasonable suspicion... "dont look american" profiling... Arizona Senate Bill 1070, which passed the state House of Representatives Tuesday and is expected to be signed by Republican Gov. Jan Brewer, makes it a misdemeanor to lack proper immigration paperwork in Arizona and directs police to determine immigration status if they are suspicious of criminal activity. Currently, officers can inquire about a person’s immigration status only if that person is a suspect in another crime. so see its a misdemeanor.. so yes you have to go to court if you want to fight it.. who knows maybe you can mail in proof instead... but you get my point... the law is too over the top... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sjinhan Posted April 21, 2010 Share Posted April 21, 2010 Or worse they could not believe you and put you in a holding cell until they can find out either way. No matter how you look at it "looking" like an immigrant is now just cause in Arizona. Thank you republicans for "Let me see your papers!" to the United States. Should have expected you to target skins color with it. in Texas, I know people who got detained for suspicion at check points. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Veretax Posted April 21, 2010 Share Posted April 21, 2010 If you want to talk immigration reform that's fine, start a new thread. This is about the Constitutionality of THIS bill in Arizona. And you don't make bad and unConstitutional law just because you have a problem in your state. __________________ If you say so. The other issue is whether checking credentials at a state border is something the states have jurisdiction over or not, I'd have to go do some research before forming an opinion on that one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Destino Posted April 21, 2010 Share Posted April 21, 2010 in Texas, I know people who got detained for suspicion at check points. I understand check points. Forcing someone to carry an ID that costs 290-370 bucks to replace and forces you to interact with immigration while walking your dog however is absurd. What do you do if you lose it? Paint yourself white and hope the cops don't notice or imprison yourself in your home until immigration gets around to cashing your check and sending you a new one? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ABQCOWBOY Posted April 21, 2010 Share Posted April 21, 2010 Crossing the border IS cause, once you're in a citizen does not need to provide proof of residency. FAIL again. You want to talk about fail? Has anybody actually read this proposed law? It actually says that officers must have "reasonable suspicion". That's funny. Its irrelevant if not all cases are prosecuted, its still the gathering stage of a prosecution and it still needs probable cause and or a search warrant. What you are suggesting is that it would only be illegally forcing someone to testify against themselves if they were prosecuted, the problem is that the case would be thrown out because the person was unconstitutionally forced to testify against themselves. No, what I'm suggesting is that it would only be illegal if a person actually testified. As I posted above, apparently the law is not as far fetched as has been presented in this thread. If the requirement for Reasonable Suspicion is met, then all the rest of this is not in play. Read the bill. I would give you the same advice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkinInsite Posted April 21, 2010 Share Posted April 21, 2010 If this law does pass how long before 60 minutes starts sending in Hispanic looking people with hidden cameras to test the "reasonable suspicion" cause. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AsburySkinsFan Posted April 21, 2010 Share Posted April 21, 2010 You want to talk about fail? Has anybody actually read this proposed law? It actually says that officers must have "reasonable suspicion".That's funny. And what pre tell is reasonable suspicion? Its not described in the bill. No, what I'm suggesting is that it would only be illegal if a person actually testified. Telling an officer anything is testifying. As I posted above, apparently the law is not as far fetched as has been presented in this thread. If the requirement for Reasonable Suspicion is met, then all the rest of this is not in play. What is reasonable suspicion? And this reasonable suspicion is what the Constitution calls probable cause. I would give you the same advice. I've read the parts that matter in this debate. http://www.azleg.gov/legtext/49leg/2r/bills/sb1070s.pdf B. FOR ANY LAWFUL CONTACT MADE BY A LAW ENFORCEMENT OFFICIAL OR AGENCY 21 OF THIS STATE OR A COUNTY, CITY, TOWN OR OTHER POLITICAL SUBDIVISION OF THIS 22 STATE WHERE REASONABLE SUSPICION EXISTS THAT THE PERSON IS AN ALIEN WHO IS 23 UNLAWFULLY PRESENT IN THE UNITED STATES, A REASONABLE ATTEMPT SHALL BE MADE, 24 WHEN PRACTICABLE, TO DETERMINE THE IMMIGRATION STATUS OF THE PERSON. THE 25 PERSON'S IMMIGRATION STATUS SHALL BE VERIFIED WITH THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT 26 PURSUANT TO 8 UNITED STATES CODE SECTION 1373©. BTW, No where in the bill is there a description of "reasonable suspicion"; I just word searched it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AsburySkinsFan Posted April 21, 2010 Share Posted April 21, 2010 If this law does pass how long before 60 minutes starts sending in Hispanic looking people with hidden cameras to test the "reasonable suspicion" cause. 5 minutes; three the get the camera set and 2 to dress up like a day laborer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AsburySkinsFan Posted April 21, 2010 Share Posted April 21, 2010 29 A. IT IS UNLAWFUL FOR A PERSON WHO IS IN VIOLATION OF A CRIMINAL30 OFFENSE TO: 31 1. TRANSPORT OR MOVE OR ATTEMPT TO TRANSPORT OR MOVE AN ALIEN IN THIS 32 STATE IN A MEANS OF TRANSPORTATION IF THE PERSON KNOWS OR RECKLESSLY 33 DISREGARDS THE FACT THAT THE ALIEN HAS COME TO, HAS ENTERED OR REMAINS IN THE 34 UNITED STATES IN VIOLATION OF LAW Wow it is apparently against the law to knowingly transport an illegal immigrant to the emergency room and or to the border. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sjinhan Posted April 21, 2010 Share Posted April 21, 2010 I understand check points. Forcing someone to carry an ID that costs 290-370 bucks to replace and forces you to interact with immigration while walking your dog however is absurd. What do you do if you lose it? Paint yourself white and hope the cops don't notice or imprison yourself in your home until immigration gets around to cashing your check and sending you a new one? yeah i understand too.. i mean the check points were on the roads and at the airport... But it still rubbed in the wrong way that I was being treated kind of a lesser of a citizen cause of my skin color... like I said I understand the situation there... However what I wont stand for is if that situation is bascially forced upon me on every single aspect of my life due to this "reasonable suspicion" cause... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ABQCOWBOY Posted April 21, 2010 Share Posted April 21, 2010 And what pre tell is reasonable suspicion? Its not described in the bill. That would be a question for the Arizona State Legislature I imagine. Telling an officer anything is testifying. I guess you can try and bring suit on the first case of reasonable suspicion that is applied to a citizen. What is reasonable suspicion? And this reasonable suspicion is what the Constitution calls probable cause. Another question for the Arizona State Legislature. I don't know if they are mandated to post things 12 hours in advance of the vote or not. I've read the parts that matter in this debate. BTW, No where in the bill is there a description of "reasonable suspicion"; I just word searched it. But there is a requirement for "Reasonable Suspicion"? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sjinhan Posted April 21, 2010 Share Posted April 21, 2010 That would be a question for the Arizona State Legislature I imagine. I guess you can try and bring suit on the first case of reasonable suspicion that is applied to a citizen. Another question for the Arizona State Legislature. I don't know if they are mandated to post things 12 hours in advance of the vote or not. I've read the parts that matter in this debate. But there is a requirement for "Reasonable Suspicion"? you see our point right... However the law has been passed as how it has been written... the law needs to get vetoed.. then rewritten in a way that it cant be abused so easily. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corcaigh Posted April 21, 2010 Share Posted April 21, 2010 BS. What about the US citizens who were born in the US who just happen to look like an illegal. I said US Citizens are the ones who will be hassled by enforcement of this law. You seem to have a comprehension problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sjinhan Posted April 21, 2010 Share Posted April 21, 2010 I said US Citizens are the ones who will be hassled by enforcement of this law. You seem to have a comprehension problem. yup thats my problem.. this law basically does nothing to stop illegals but instead now the US citizens can be given a misdemeanor for not carrying an ID on them at all times... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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