Military Drafts: What would you do?

[PokerPacker]

This is a tough one for me. On one hand, I often go with the flow. On the other hand, I have a real issue with unquestionable authority.

I think it would depend on the situation. If we were drafted to fight a war on terrorism or some other such "war", I'd like to say I'd go to Switzerland or something, but I may find it hard running off like that.

Now if we were fighting another Nazi Germany or other such power that is a definite, identifiable enemy, I'd like to think I'd serve. I'd rather deal with the technical and engineering stuff away from the front lines, though, as i'm not exactly built like the prototypical soldier.

[twa]

Maybe I'm reading it wrong,but seems to me Ellis just took swing and a miss to an epic level.

But he did at least stand up and take a swing,that's kinda the drawback in just looking at part of the equation though.(or quoting excerpts for that matter )

Or indeed,falling for anything,because you must first stand

Can you be intellectually dishonest and ignorant on the same matter?

Can you apply a basic truth to another matter w/o being so?

Some seem to feel this passage is irrevocably tied to non-violence,yet isn't the truth proclaimed not to allow fear to rule?

Can ya hit a curve ball?..or does it buckle your knees

[AsburySkinsFan]

But he did at least stand up and take a swing,that's kinda the drawback in just looking at part of the equation though.(or quoting excerpts for that matter )

Or indeed,falling for anything,because you must first stand

Can you be intellectually dishonest and ignorant on the same matter?

Can you apply a basic truth to another matter w/o being so?

Some seem to feel this passage is irrevocably tied to non-violence,yet isn't the truth proclaimed not to allow fear to rule?

Can ya hit a curve ball?..or does it buckle your knees

Come twa you can't make Dr. King advocate violence when he spent his entire career preaching against it. I gave Ellis the benefit of the doubt about being intellectually dishonest because I was hoping that he wasn't so ignorant regarding Dr. King so as to think that he advocated anything but non-violence.

If you want to say that this is about a call to arms then so be it, but don't attribute the thought to Dr. King. And no, when you quote Dr. King in an effort to support war then you don't hit a curveball or a foul, you swing and miss in absolutely glorious fashion.

"I don't give a damn about the color of your skin, just kill as many [sOB's] wearing green as you can."

Here we can see Gen. Patton's commitment to pacifism, and non-violent resistance.

See, you can't do that its either ignorant, or an intentional characterization of the person's position; i.e. an untruth.

[Ellis]

MLK is different things to different people.

Obviously, everyone wants to live in a peaceful, fair and just world. Pretty much goes without saying.

Even the Tibetans and Tibetan monks took up arms against the Chinese when their land was invaded. And they got their asses kicked in the process. So I stand by the MLK quote as an inspiration for defending and giving your life for something you hold precious.

You guys can insult me all you want. LOL. It's not going to change my opinion.

[Elessar78]

I would do my duty. Nobody wants to pick up a gun and fight but, as someone said, if they reinstitute the draft then it's **** hitting the fan time.

As soon as I found out there was a draft, I'd start getting my body ready for the rigors of boot camp and being a soldier. If we were invading a non-anglophone country I'd try to master the language. Being an interpreter is probably a useful skill in the front line.

[ZoEd]

MLK is different things to different people.

Obviously, everyone wants to live in a peaceful, fair and just world. Pretty much goes without saying.

Even the Tibetans and Tibetan monks took up arms against the Chinese when their land was invaded. And they got their asses kicked in the process. So I stand by the MLK quote as an inspiration for defending and giving your life for something you hold precious.

You guys can insult me all you want. LOL. It's not going to change my opinion.

I see where you're comig from actually. Just because Dr King's words were directed at a different matter and his way's were nonviolent doesn't mean that the words are any less applicable to the topic were discussing.

His words are more about courage to do the right thing when called to do so. Don't wilt in front of adversity or it will kill your soul.

Seriously, people quote Lombardi all the time and his speeches were geared toward football. I guess unless you're playing football you shouldn't apply anything he ever said.

[RedskinsTime]

Those of you who would refuse to go-

Why did you register for selective service? Just going through the motions but its really all bull**** in the end?

I think its clear when you sign that dotted line, you're making a contractual agreement with your country. Yeah, they'll give you free speech and freedom of religion and all that pizazz. But if they need you, you better be ready to answer that call.

If you don't agree with the cause, vote out the representatives. If that doesn't work, leave if you wish. Nobody is stopping you. But, living here on a free ride is unacceptable.

[Koolblue13]

^^ That's cool, I guess we can use Hitler quotes to promote peace then?

If you don't agree with the cause, vote out the representatives. If that doesn't work, leave if you wish. Nobody is stopping you. But, living here on a free ride is unacceptable.

I served in the Navy, knowing what I know now, I would never go back, under almost any condition. I don't back this war or war in general and I voted against it.

[The Brave Little Toaster Oven]

It has nothing to do with being scared to die. It has everything to do with refusing to kill and be killed for a civic institution, its about the rejection of nationality. This nation did not give me the freedom to be a pastor that freedom came from God, and I can have that freedom anywhere. Make no mistake, the United States grants me no freedoms, my freedoms come from God Almighty and I refuse to kill for a nation for I serve a higher Kingdom. You can call it cowardly all you wish, pacifist Christians have been called the same and far worse since their earliest refusals to fight for Rome I am honored to carry on that tradition.

If that's the case, then how come you are so involved in politics? It seems rather hypocritical to me.

[Boss_Hogg]

I go to war and fight for my country.

I may not agree with the war, but I'm not going to run away.

[Koolblue13]

If that's the case, then how come you are so involved in politics? It seems rather hypocritical to me.

Caring what direction your country is headed is still important.

Although, his post didn't make that much sense, because without freedom of religion, we could be living in a cell somewhere, so it's got to be just a little important to him.

[RedskinsTime]

I served in the Navy, knowing what I know now, I would never go back, under almost any condition. I don't back this war or war in general and I voted against it.

And you have the freedom to leave if your number is called again.

[gbear]

I think I'd volunteer. I'm not one for pushing the jobs I don't want to do onto others.

That said, I may not be being totally honest as I doubt I'd be given the choice which is a loss for the country. Having MS may make my head hurt like hell if I can't get meds, but it's also given me a rather incredible pain tollerance. If I puke from a headache, how much do you think I'm going to complain about having to carry something till I can't feel my feet that I couldn't feel before we started running?

[ZoEd]

^^ That's cool, I guess we can use Hitler quotes to promote peace then?

I served in the Navy, knowing what I know now, I would never go back, under almost any condition. I don't back this war or war in general and I voted against it.

I'm sure if you went back through Hitlers speeches you could probably find some stuff he said and apply it in a way that would be inspirational. If that's what you want to do and apply it in a positive manner who gives a **** who said it. I mean Obama's girl that praised Mao, the lefties were defending her ass right?

If you look at how Hitler took a broke and crumbling Germany and rebuilt it into a formidable world power you could probably find some things quite useful that would apply to any struggling country. Hitler may have went over the deep end and his motivation may have been ****ed but the man was brilliant in motivating his people and rebuilding his country.

We have one half of the equation in the US currently, now if he could just turn this economy around we'd be alright.

[frostyj]

I would go, just as I did in the past. (less than 45 days out, stop lossed for 2 1/2 years) No complaints.

Why did you register for selective service?

It's the law.

[AsburySkinsFan]

MLK is different things to different people.

Obviously, everyone wants to live in a peaceful, fair and just world. Pretty much goes without saying.

Even the Tibetans and Tibetan monks took up arms against the Chinese when their land was invaded. And they got their asses kicked in the process. So I stand by the MLK quote as an inspiration for defending and giving your life for something you hold precious.

You guys can insult me all you want. LOL. It's not going to change my opinion.

I'm not trying to change you opinion on whether you want to fight in a war if drafted, however, to say that MLK is different things to different people and then to use his words as some sort of justification for war then you're not representing MLK but instead making MLK into your image of what you want him to be. He was an adamant pacifist you cannot get away from that and it must be understood when you read what he writes.

[AsburySkinsFan]

If that's the case, then how come you are so involved in politics? It seems rather hypocritical to me.

Because I pay taxes and this is still a representative government and I have the right to engage in politics. My faith does not call be to be detached from the world around me, but instead to change the world around me. I think it funny that you think its hypocritical that I'm not disinterested in the happenings of my government just because I'm a pacifist.

[Bang]

I'm sure if you went back through Hitlers speeches you could probably find some stuff he said and apply it in a way that would be inspirational. If that's what you want to do and apply it in a positive manner who gives a **** who said it. I mean Obama's girl that praised Mao, the lefties were defending her ass right?

If you look at how Hitler took a broke and crumbling Germany and rebuilt it into a formidable world power you could probably find some things quite useful that would apply to any struggling country. Hitler may have went over the deep end and his motivation may have been ****ed but the man was brilliant in motivating his people and rebuilding his country.

We have one half of the equation in the US currently, now if he could just turn this economy around we'd be alright.

Not really.

All he did was whip up nationalist furor by finding scapegoats for their predicament (ie: the Jews, Communists and French). They in no way shape or form took any of the responsibility for why Germany was in the shape it was. It was the fault of the Jews, it was the fault of the communists, it was the fault of the French and English for the hard treaty they had been forced to sign to end a war THEY started themselves.

He convinced them that just by being German that they were superior to everyone else, and that it was their right by birth to have "living space", ("Lebensraum", Hitler's main motivational word to his people). By being German, they had the right to expand, to remove the mongrel races from their midst, to steal natural resources from their neighbors. This was the source of the national pride he created. He convinced them they were superior, he convinced them that all their problems were someone else's fault. And he indoctrinated them from day one using propaganda methods that proved very effective.

And so the German people bought into it because of a carefully crafted brainwashing of an entire country. They relied on symbols and nationailst thinking. Flag first, Country first no matter WHAT... any thinking to the contrary was unacceptable (and punishable by death,, sometimes quick by summary execution by local party fanatics, sometimes long and drawn out slavery ending in starvation.).

By using mass media, by using symbols and scapegoats and an ignorant populace more than ready to believe such lies, Hitler perpetrated the single greatest catastrophe in the history of humanity. (And Hirohito as well. The same sort of thing happened in Japan, but with a divine twist. The Emperor is thought to be descendant directly from the Sun God, and so when Japan told it's population that they were supposed to be the masters of Asia, they believed it.)

Now, there are people in this country who think like that. Flag first, Country first, right or wrong. And that "or wrong" part is the stickler. Because as Germany and Japan prove beyond the shadow of ANY doubt, when it's "wrong" it can be disastrously wrong. And those who would commit such things absolutely require that the people who must support them do so blindly, with no thought other than the "patriotism" they're being fed.

In this country a true patriot questions authority. If the authority is right and the cause is just, the answers become clear very quickly and easily. And when they're wrong it also becomes clear quickly and easily, especially with the precedents of history to teach us. And if they're wrong...

well what's a patriot to do?

According to some he should just leave. Perhaps "flee" is a better word, because isn't that what good Germans did when they saw what was happening? For example, my great grandfather "fled" Russia when the bolshevik revolution began and the Russians began exterminating jews. He settled in Austria and then "fled" again in the early 30s when it was clear which way the wind was blowing. A decade later his son, my grandfather, went back to fight those who had caused the family to flee. Now, granted my family was not German, but under Nazi law, everyone who lived in the areas designated for Lebensraum were German citizens,, unless they were like my family, and Nazi law called for their extermination.

To read some interpretations of the original question, it would seem as if some here would say my great grandfather was a coward, that he was unpatriotic.

And what I say is it isn't always so simple as that.

~Bang

[AsburySkinsFan]

I see where you're comig from actually. Just because Dr King's words were directed at a different matter and his way's were nonviolent doesn't mean that the words are any less applicable to the topic were discussing.

His words are more about courage to do the right thing when called to do so. Don't wilt in front of adversity or it will kill your soul.

Seriously, people quote Lombardi all the time and his speeches were geared toward football. I guess unless you're playing football you shouldn't apply anything he ever said.

That's total crap, you cannot take someone's words that are promoting pacifism and non-violence to justify war, that is called "reader response" where the reader gets to determine what the meaning of another persons words are regardless of the intent of the original author. If this is the road we are going down then I would be free to take your own quotes and use them to promote pacifism even though you disagree with that position. If I did that you'd get mad at me saying that I was misreading your posts, or mischaracterizing you and you'd be justified in your criticism. Yet, because MLK is an historical figure you feel free to do the same to his words, and that IS intellectually dishonest. If you want quotes that call people to arms then I am sure there are a multitude of sources for those ideas, but MLK is not one of them.

[AsburySkinsFan]

Caring what direction your country is headed is still important.

Although, his post didn't make that much sense, because without freedom of religion, we could be living in a cell somewhere, so it's got to be just a little important to him.

Keep in mind that my freedom of my faith is not hampered by my sitting in a prison cell.

[AsburySkinsFan]

I'm sure if you went back through Hitlers speeches you could probably find some stuff he said and apply it in a way that would be inspirational. If that's what you want to do and apply it in a positive manner who gives a **** who said it. I mean Obama's girl that praised Mao, the lefties were defending her ass right?

If you look at how Hitler took a broke and crumbling Germany and rebuilt it into a formidable world power you could probably find some things quite useful that would apply to any struggling country. Hitler may have went over the deep end and his motivation may have been ****ed but the man was brilliant in motivating his people and rebuilding his country.

We have one half of the equation in the US currently, now if he could just turn this economy around we'd be alright.

There is a HUGE difference in using something Hitler said about patriotism or something to motivate others and using something that Hitler said so as to make it sound that he was a Zionist. That's what Ellis did.

[RedskinsTime]

Keep in mind that my freedom of my faith is not hampered by my sitting in a prison cell.

There are other punishments that could hamper your freedom of faith.

Like Death.

The USA prohibits punishments like this, and they ask for something in return. If you're not willing to hold up your end of the bargain, you can start looking for countries that don't require military service.

[Bang]

I think one of the things some folks are missing in arguing with ASF's convictions, is that here in America he is free to follow his own path. It's not a free ride, and it's not an easy road.

Take this for an example, this thread is entirely made up of an entirely hypothetical situation, and he's been told he's basically a traitor and to get out.

remember, America isn't just what your own personal definition of it is. The freedom it represents is different for everyone.

He certainly is not one of the people saying "No i wouldn't fight because my country never did anything for me". And I've heard plenty of those in my time. (meanwhile they accept subsidized housing, welfare checks, and free lunches for their kids.)

~Bang

[AsburySkinsFan]

There are other punishments that could hamper your freedom of faith.

Like Death.

The USA prohibits punishments like this, and they ask for something in return. If you're not willing to hold up your end of the bargain, you can start looking for countries that don't require military service.

Do you really think that I believe that my death is an impediment to my faith? Think about it for a minute.

[RedskinsTime]

Bang- very good insight. In the end, your great grandfather did exercise his right to leave the country when his views became so out of touch with those around him that there was no chance for electoral reprieve. I don't think anyone would call him a coward under those circumstances (at least I would hope not).