Military Drafts: What would you do?

[Bang]

I also find it very strange that people in this thread have been using Nazi Germany as an example of when they would not be willing to go to war for their country. Seriously, we are Nazis?

That's because you are looking at it through a narrow scope.

First off, I used the Nazi Germany example. Not some,, me. And I have in no way said that I would not fight for our country.

And did NOT use it to say WE are Nazis. I used it as an example of ethics when it comes to this question.

You have chosen to "find it strange" and have taken the meaning to be that I (not some) am saying that we're Nazis. I could find that strange, and hope that you can see how that sort of blind thinking is what makes a thing like Nazi Germany even possible in the first place.

Since I've brought this ethical problem into this hypothetical question, let's look at it. Do you think all German citizens were Nazis?

Do you think they intended for what happened to happen? Or did enough of them just go along with it until it went WAY too far. And when it went WAY too far, why did they continue doing it? At what point did their patriotic furor turn into cowering fear of being arrested as a traitor? At what point did they realize that the lunatic had led them into horror?

You understand that as a nation they were all complicit. There was no innocent in Germany. It's unthinkable what they did, and yet they did it, and it wasn't THAT long ago.

Mind you ,this is all hypothetical. So, hypothetically speaking, let's pretend for a second that it's 1941. You are a German citizen. You've been assigned to a guard position in Auschwitz. You know what happened there. At what point does your personal ethics and sense of right and wrong begin to outweigh this patriotism that is commanding you to assist in the extermination of thousands upon thousands of innocent people?

This is why I say that you simply cannot be blind to what is going on ever. Your country is a set of ideals, right? Your country is not the President, or the Army, or some corporate interest. Your country is a set of ideals that say all men are created equal and that freedom and liberty for all can be found here, among other things. And if your president in the future decided to do things that steadfastly went against our principals, then you have a decision to make.

ANYthing is possible. The people of Germany are a perfect example of how it can happen.

I'm not in any way saying that the US is comparable at ALL to Nazi Germany, and when people at protests and rallies DO liken our government and it's policies as anything comparable to Nazi Germany it just kills me. They have no idea what real extremism is, and because they are so easily led around by their nose to believe such outlandish things as that, then they provide the possibility for extremism to rise. Extremism counts on blind loyalty and action before thought.

~Bang

[luckydevil]

I guess I should answer my own question before we go much further.

Personally, I would fight. Whether I agree with the war or not, I consider it such a privelege to live in the United States of America that I see it as my duty to defend her, regardless of my personal feelings.

It's answers like this that scares me.

There is difference between one's country and one's government. It staggering how so many people would blindly follow their government into war without asking questions.

[twa]

ehh I can easily see how being a medic is an equal "cop out" like 'yeah I object to the war but I'll just support the war machine in a slightly less direct way.' A medic is a useful tool in a very big arsenal aimed at the destruction of others. One way or another, if you join up, you give up your individuality and become a part of the war machine*.

*(I don't think there's anything inherently wrong with giving up individuality, or becoming an integral part of a large scale venture.)

A cop out if you are a true pacifist,but certainly not to those that simply object to simply taking life....people come in many flavors

Like this:silly:

http://www.veteranstoday.com/2010/01/31/it-begins-an-anti-war-secessionist-movement-is-alive/

It begins. An Anti-War Secessionist Movement is alive.

It is a interesting question of just how much responsibility you owe to the nation as a citizen and how to accommodate your personal beliefs.

But then even in the creation of this nation,it was a minority that did the heavy lifting (from what I recall)

[Prosperity]

A cop out if you are a true pacifist,but certainly not to those that simply object to simply taking life....people come in many flavors

Like this:silly:

http://www.veteranstoday.com/2010/01/31/it-begins-an-anti-war-secessionist-movement-is-alive/

It begins. An Anti-War Secessionist Movement is alive.

It is a interesting question of just how much responsibility you owe to the nation as a citizen and how to accommodate your personal beliefs.

But then even in the creation of this nation,it was a minority that did the heavy lifting (from what I recall)

true

I like Thorough's method of civil disobedience. He outright refused to pay his taxes when the US invaded Mexico. If the state does something abhorrent to you, then quit giving it money (and go to jail, and maybe write some poetry about it).

As for answering that question personally, on the one hand I don't trust our government to always (or usually) do what's right, on the other hand I don't really trust myself to see the big picture of what's right and wrong for countries.

[Gallen5862]

I was a Medic in the North Carolina Army National Guard from 1981-1987. Combat medics are required by both the General Orders and by the Geneva Convention to provide medical care to both sides. Medics and Chaplains are the only soldiers not required by General Orders to try to escape if captured. That is because of the rules requiring Medics and Chaplains to treat everyone.

[AsburySkinsFan]

The whole CO thing seems like a huge cop out for me. I truly cannot see how someone would not die fighting for the country that gave them the freedom to be a pastor. If youre scared to die, just say youre scared; hiding behind religion is cowardly. :2cents:

It has nothing to do with being scared to die. It has everything to do with refusing to kill and be killed for a civic institution, its about the rejection of nationality. This nation did not give me the freedom to be a pastor that freedom came from God, and I can have that freedom anywhere. Make no mistake, the United States grants me no freedoms, my freedoms come from God Almighty and I refuse to kill for a nation for I serve a higher Kingdom. You can call it cowardly all you wish, pacifist Christians have been called the same and far worse since their earliest refusals to fight for Rome I am honored to carry on that tradition.

[AsburySkinsFan]

Actually, if you paid attention I agree with quite a few people on this site that i disagree with in quite a few things.. I normally don't get all riled up like that but as you said.. I expect more from you specifically.

I appreciate what you're saying, but when someone like I've been encountering here attack my position without any form of discussion and without any indication of a useful dialogue I'm not going to pretend that they are being anything but obstinate. And no, I'm not referring to you.

I knew I was right.

I find it ironic that a gluttonous user of fuel for so long would make snide comments about a war to provide him said fuel. That assumes of course that the very (insert word for not well or honestly thought out) position that Iraq = oil profits was actually true.

Well just so you know I bought that truck in 2000 back when gas was less than half what it is today, and back before I fully appreciated the real consequences that owning such a vehicle brought, and back before I understood God's calling to environmental stewardship. If I was able to afford to replace that truck earlier I certainly would have, and as it is now I have replaced it and my truck sits idle for weeks at a time. Say what you want about my past abuse of oil and I'll agree with you, but I am no longer making those same mistakes. Furthermore, this current war in Iraq has more than double the price of fuel so I guess my complaint is still justified.

[AsburySkinsFan]

It's answers like this that scares me.

There is difference between one's country and one's government. It is staggering how so many people would blindly follow their government into war without asking questions.

I agree, and for one I know that I used to be like that, but I suffer those illusions no longer. I used to be blindly patriotic, but then I saw the ability of a nation I once idealized to run corrupt into war and using God's name to do so.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/pressoffice/pressreleases/stories/2005/10_october/06/bush.shtml

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/bush-god-told-me-to-invade-iraq-509925.html

Follow a nation into war...no not I.

[Oldskool]

If the Army was desperate enough to draft an ex-Abrams Tanker with a profile, I'd go willingly.

[luckydevil]

I agree, and for one I know that I used to be like that, but I suffer those illusions no longer. I used to be blindly patriotic, but then I saw the ability of a nation I once idealized to run corrupt into war and using God's name to do so.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/pressoffice/pressreleases/stories/2005/10_october/06/bush.shtml

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/bush-god-told-me-to-invade-iraq-509925.html

Follow a nation into war...no not I.

ASF, a patriot would have no problem speaking or rebelling against his government. A nationalist is one who blindly follows his government.

[illone]

It's doubtful they would have much use for me since I was RE4 (never to return to military duty under any circumstance) when I was discharged.

But, I'd go back if need be.

[DCSaints_fan]

I'm not really familiar with this. Do you have any links or something I can read? Sincere curiosity.

Noam Chomsky wrote extensively on Vietnam. Here's a decent interview he gives on the topic:

http://chss.montclair.edu/english/furr/chomskyin1282.html

[Veretax]

I certainly agree- I think trying to rationalize Christian beliefs with war is a very slippery slope. But nonetheless it's been done for thousands of years. So in that respect it is almost a moot point.

.......

I have nothing against anyone who believed as such objecting to the fighting, however, I as a Christian do not prescribe warfare as being equated with murder, for me to do so would require me to admit that God telling Israel to wipe out the inhabitants of the land was in fact telling them to commit Sin.

Think about that for a moment does it make sense as a Christian to think that God would cause man to Sin? Not according to the bible. Therefore i prescribe to the idea that Warfare is a power and responsibility God has bestowed upon governments in effect to protect their people.

Now you could argue about the differences between offensive and defensive war in this day and age and I am more than willing to consider such things in this context, but I believe that God does not necessarily charge the killing on the battlefield to the individual. That is my belief anyways. Take it however you will.

[AsburySkinsFan]

ASF, a patriot would have no problem speaking or rebelling against his government. A nationalist is one who blindly follows his government.

You are right, I miss spoke. I meant to say "blindly nationalistic", thanks for that correction.

[RedskinsTime]

One could argue that your vote is the weapon to fight against a Hitler situation. Like it or not, you live in a country that elected these people to power. If you don't agree with the decisions of these people, vote against them in the next election (no more than two years away). If the rest of the country doesn't think the way you do and re-elect these same people, then you have the right to leave.

Draft dodging is never the answer. We the people elect these representatives and can live with the consequences, change it, or go somewhere else.

[MattFancy]

I'd fight. I don't think I'd last long, but if I did, it would be a better story than saying I dodged the draft.

[Skin'Em84]

They'd draft me, and then do a sign and trade to Canada for someone who'd be good.

[Koolblue13]

When we went to War with Iraq the first time, I joined. We were going to War and I felt it my duty.

I have also grown up quite a bit.

If the War is just, people will join at an alarming rate, like in WWII.

If the War in unjust, they will protest and leave, like Vietnam.

If there was a draft for the War in the Middle East, I would join the protests or leave.

[Ellis]

“I say to you, this morning, that if you have never found something so dear and precious to you that you will die for it, then you aren’t fit to live.

You may be 38 years old, as I happen to be, and one day, some great opportunity stands before you and calls upon you to stand for some great principle, some great issue, some great cause. And you refuse to do it because you are afraid.

You refuse to do it because you want to live longer. You’re afraid that you will lose your job, or you are afraid that you will be criticized or that you will lose your popularity, or you’re afraid that somebody will stab or shoot or bomb your house. So you refuse to take a stand.

Well, you may go on and live until you are ninety, but you are just as dead at 38 as you would be at ninety.

And the cessation of breathing in your life is but the belated announcement of an earlier death of the spirit.

You died when you refused to stand up for right.

You died when you refused to stand up for truth.

You died when you refused to stand up for justice.”

— Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.

From the sermon “But, If Not” delivered at Ebenezer Baptist Church on November 5, 1967.

[AsburySkinsFan]

“I say to you, this morning, that if you have never found something so dear and precious to you that you will die for it, then you aren’t fit to live.

You may be 38 years old, as I happen to be, and one day, some great opportunity stands before you and calls upon you to stand for some great principle, some great issue, some great cause. And you refuse to do it because you are afraid.

You refuse to do it because you want to live longer. You’re afraid that you will lose your job, or you are afraid that you will be criticized or that you will lose your popularity, or you’re afraid that somebody will stab or shoot or bomb your house. So you refuse to take a stand.

Well, you may go on and live until you are ninety, but you are just as dead at 38 as you would be at ninety.

And the cessation of breathing in your life is but the belated announcement of an earlier death of the spirit.

You died when you refused to stand up for right.

You died when you refused to stand up for truth.

You died when you refused to stand up for justice.”

— Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.

From the sermon “But, If Not” delivered at Ebenezer Baptist Church on November 5, 1967.

It is actually pretty funny that you should quote this of all quotes, considering that Dr. King was a non-violent activist holding tight to pacifism. So I guess if I could win a war by dying without killing then I would do so, however that is not what militaries do, no a military is not a pacifistic non-violent instrument but instead the hand of destruction, and violence man against man. Please notice that Dr. King says in the first line "you will die for it" not that you will kill for it.

I think the quote you may be looking for is from Patton: "I don't want you to die for your country, I want you to make some other poor **** die for his."

It is intellectually dishonest to present Dr. King as one who supports violence.

[Chopper Dave]

If it's a just, necessary war, like WWII, I fight. If it's an unjust and/or unnecessary war, then I dodge. Israel, or maybe a non-extradition country, ahoy.

[Ellis]

[AsburySkinsFan]

Your opinion man...

Seriously, you want to entirely misrepresent what Dr. King stood for by quoting him as if he supported violence when nothing could be further from the truth and you suggest that its "my opinion man". Sorry, but that's like quoting Patton and suggesting that he was a Buddhist monk.

[luckydevil]

Ellis really should read some of MLK antiwar stuff. It's more than just intellectually dishonest, it is ignorant.

[PCS]

Maybe I'm reading it wrong,but seems to me Ellis just took swing and a miss to an epic level.