hkHog Posted January 31, 2010 Share Posted January 31, 2010 For those who are hammering ASF for his tossing of a twist in this fictional supposition... ask yourself this.Take it onje step further. You're a German roughly my age,, or at least past your twenties, and Hitler has taken your country to war. You know what has happened, you've seen how badly he's screwedup, You've seen your Jewish neighbors hauled away, you've seen their property taken over. You've seen non-jewish neighbors hauled away for criticizing der Feurher, you've smelled the death coming from the "labor" camp nearby, you've known plenty of young men who have gone and died in Russia for this war that has been lost. The Americans are pushing in from the west and the Russians are squeezing from the east. And today Der Feurher has drafted you to defend the Fatherland. (along with several old men and male children of at least 10 years of age of your village.) Do you just blindly go fight? Are you duty bound to this madman? ~Bang Simple, if you really think it is wrong you renounce your citizenship. This is what ASF should do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AsburySkinsFan Posted January 31, 2010 Share Posted January 31, 2010 You might want to look at the law. As a CO you would not be forced into military service, but you could be forced into some type of national service. Right, by your post it sounded like that service had to be in the military rather than civil service, my bad if I read you wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hkHog Posted January 31, 2010 Share Posted January 31, 2010 I value my citizenship very much thank you not that you would know or care because I don't fit into your tiny mold of what a citizen should be, but I'm not willing to send someone to die for it, and I'm not willing to send someone to kill for it.Your problem is that you confuse patriotism with citizenship and there is a HUGE difference there. That's right, just accept all the benefits and never give anything back. You are a saint among men. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AsburySkinsFan Posted January 31, 2010 Share Posted January 31, 2010 Simple, if you really think it is wrong you renounce your citizenship. This is what I believe ASF should do. fixed it for you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AsburySkinsFan Posted January 31, 2010 Share Posted January 31, 2010 That's right, just accept all the benefits and never give anything back. You are a saint among men. Hey sport, I already served. I'm the fly in the ointment of your little Romanesque fantasy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sacase Posted January 31, 2010 Share Posted January 31, 2010 Right, by your post it sounded like that service had to be in the military rather than civil service, my bad if I read you wrong. I should have made it more clear. I was saying that everyone can be legally drafted per the constitution. However, the question would be in what capacity. The initial reaction is to military service but it also includes other forms of service as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AsburySkinsFan Posted January 31, 2010 Share Posted January 31, 2010 Simple, if you really think it is wrong you renounce your citizenship. This is what ASF should do. Sorry but a real citizen does not fight in the military just because their leader says go fight, a real citizen holds their government accountable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AsburySkinsFan Posted January 31, 2010 Share Posted January 31, 2010 I should have made it more clear. I was saying that everyone can be legally drafted per the constitution. However, the question would be in what capacity. The initial reaction is to military service but it also includes other forms of service as well. That's my understanding of the law as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#98QBKiller Posted January 31, 2010 Share Posted January 31, 2010 I'd enjoy being a woman. Good luck boys. Go make us a sammich. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WVUforREDSKINS Posted January 31, 2010 Share Posted January 31, 2010 I would go. There isn't many wars we got into that there wasn't a legit reason. (Vietnam maybe the exception) The war in Iraq, if I were to be drafted, I would look at it as getting rid of a bruttal dictator and his regime. When the Americans took down the statue of Saddam and the Iraqi people all started cheering and pounding the fallin statue with their shoes, I kinda got choked up. I also, think that we went in for the wrong reasons, but it appears the quality of life for many is better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Brave Little Toaster Oven Posted January 31, 2010 Share Posted January 31, 2010 I don't think I would be drafted since I'm the only boy :whoknows: But if it came to it, I'd join the Navy before I got drafted so I could have a say in where I go Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AdamB Posted January 31, 2010 Share Posted January 31, 2010 If drafted, I would fight. However, it is easy for me to say so being a 35 year old man with hearing issues that already got me rejected by the military once. If they actually needed me it would be because the enemy is literally on the doorstep and I would be fighting even without the draft. Instead, I would most likely be given non-military tasks and would do so. My son would be the one facing a much tougher question. His religious faith does not believe in serving in the military or other government service. He would not run (during View Nam, those of his faith served prison time instead of running), but he would have to decide if he believed strongly enough to face prison. Course, he is also only 12, so he has time to figure it out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kurd Cudins Posted January 31, 2010 Share Posted January 31, 2010 I would never fight after being drafted. I would, however, join the military if our country were involved in a necessary conflict. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AsburySkinsFan Posted January 31, 2010 Share Posted January 31, 2010 I don't think I would be drafted since I'm the only boy :whoknows: You would be well served to read up on that. But if it came to it, I'd join the Navy before I got drafted so I could have a say in where I go That's what my father did, and I would send my son to the Coast Guard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bang Posted January 31, 2010 Share Posted January 31, 2010 Simple, if you really think it is wrong you renounce your citizenship. This is what ASF should do. So the leader IS the state. In your version of this little hypothetical, Hitler is Germany, so in order for ASF to remain loyal to his country he must either invade other countries, murder civilians and take part in genocide.. or renounce his citizenship (which, let's be honest, would put him in front of a firing squad in a heartbeat. They didn't just let people leave the country over conscientious objection. His best bet by doing that would be to go to a concentration camp and live as a slave until he was too weak to work, then off to the gas.) Actually, in this scenario, what he should do is kill you and every other goose-stepper that he can, since the infection of Hitler has damned and destroyed his country. That would be loyalty to his country. Because as we can plainly see by the fact of history, Hitler ruined his country, and caused the single greatest catastrophe in all of the history of humanity. (Over some seriously CRAZY ****, as you recall.) If being accomplice to that is the only way to be loyal to your country, that's some seriously narrow thinking. Conversations like this are good. It reminds us to always be vigilant. ~Bang Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gallen5862 Posted January 31, 2010 Share Posted January 31, 2010 Considering I am a Veteran already I would serve again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GoSkins561 Posted January 31, 2010 Share Posted January 31, 2010 Wow, I am disgusted by some of the answers in this thread. I am curious, what did Ali do? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bang Posted January 31, 2010 Share Posted January 31, 2010 Wow, I am disgusted by some of the answers in this thread. I am curious, what did Ali do? Ali objected based on his religion forbidding him from killing anyone. ~Bang Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Brave Little Toaster Oven Posted January 31, 2010 Share Posted January 31, 2010 I am curious, what did Ali do? He (part of the female anatomy)'ed out. In 1964, Ali failed the U.S. Armed Forces qualifying test because his writing and spelling skills were sub-par. However, in early 1966, the tests were revised and Ali was reclassified as 1A. This classification meant he was now eligible for the draft and induction into the U.S. Army during a time when the United States was involved in the Vietnam War. When notified of this status, he declared that he would refuse to serve in the United States Army and publicly considered himself a conscientious objector. Ali stated that "War is against the teachings of the Holy Qur'an. I'm not trying to dodge the draft. We are not supposed to take part in no wars unless declared by Allah or The Messenger. We don't take part in Christian wars or wars of any unbelievers." Ali also famously said in 1966: "I ain't got no quarrel with them Viet Cong ... They never called me ******." Rare for a heavyweight boxing champion in those days, Ali spoke at Howard University, where he gave his popular "Black Is Best" speech to 4,000 cheering students and community intellectuals after he was invited to speak at Howard by a Howard sociology professor, Nathan Hare, on behalf of the Black Power Committee, a student protest group.Appearing shortly thereafter for his scheduled induction into the U.S. Armed Forces on April 28, 1967 in Houston, he refused three times to step forward at the call of his name. An officer warned him he was committing a felony punishable by five years in prison and a fine of $10,000. Once more, Ali refused to budge when his name was called. As a result, he was arrested and on the same day the New York State Athletic Commission suspended his boxing license and stripped him of his title. Other boxing commissions followed suit. At the trial on June 20, 1967, after only 21 minutes of deliberation, the jury found Ali guilty. After a Court of Appeals upheld the conviction, the case went to the U.S. Supreme Court. During this time, the public began turning against the war and support for Ali began to grow. Ali supported himself by speaking at colleges and universities across the country, where opposition to the war was especially strong. On June 28, 1971, the Supreme Court reversed his conviction for refusing induction by unanimous decision in Clay v. United States. The decision was not based on, nor addressed, the merits of Clay's/Ali's claims per se; rather, the Government's failure to specify which claims were rejected and which were sustained, constituted the grounds upon which the Court reversed the conviction Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth Tater Posted January 31, 2010 Share Posted January 31, 2010 So the leader IS the state.In your version of this little hypothetical, Hitler is Germany, so in order for ASF to remain loyal to his country he must either invade other countries, murder civilians and take part in genocide.. or renounce his citizenship (which, let's be honest, would put him in front of a firing squad in a heartbeat. They didn't just let people leave the country over conscientious objection. His best bet by doing that would be to go to a concentration camp and live as a slave until he was too weak to work, then off to the gas.) Actually, in this scenario, what he should do is kill you and every other goose-stepper that he can, since the infection of Hitler has damned and destroyed his country. That would be loyalty to his country. Because as we can plainly see by the fact of history, Hitler ruined his country, and caused the single greatest catastrophe in all of the history of humanity. (Over some seriously CRAZY ****, as you recall.) If being accomplice to that is the only way to be loyal to your country, that's some seriously narrow thinking. Conversations like this are good. It reminds us to always be vigilant. ~Bang Have you ever read Bonhoeffer's "Ethics"? While not a crudely put as you and he was also much more of a pacifist (a Christian Minster), that was pretty much his conclusion about Hitler and to some extent all war. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZoEd Posted January 31, 2010 Share Posted January 31, 2010 Yes, blind loyalty to state is always the best route.:doh: Something tells me that you don't even believe this, my guess is that if Obama led us into a war you'd very much object.Tell ya what...you find in the Constitution where citizenship is granted in exchange for military service, this isn't fricking Rome or Sparta, some of ya'll need to get a grip. Why should someone who isn't willing to serve their country when called upon to do so be afforded the freedoms it provides? I personally would like to herd up all these ******* who think freedom is free, take their asses and drop them off in the middle of some place where people aren't free so they can see first hand just how precious it is. Way too many people in the good ol US of A take freedom for granted because they've never had to live without it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth Tater Posted January 31, 2010 Share Posted January 31, 2010 Why should someone who isn't willing to serve their country when called upon to do so be afforded the freedoms it provides? I personally would like to herd up all these ******* who think freedom is free, take their asses and drop them off in the middle of some place where people aren't free so they can see first hand just how precious it is. Way too many people in the good ol US of A take freedom for granted because they've never had to live without it. The State provides NO freedom. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seabee1973 Posted January 31, 2010 Share Posted January 31, 2010 easy for me to answer- fight...but being as I'm a woman, I wont be drafted..but I'd go if they let me I think nowadays that would be changed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Perky72 Posted January 31, 2010 Share Posted January 31, 2010 Why should someone who isn't willing to serve their country when called upon to do so be afforded the freedoms it provides? I personally would like to herd up all these ******* who think freedom is free, take their asses and drop them off in the middle of some place where people aren't free so they can see first hand just how precious it is. Way too many people in the good ol US of A take freedom for granted because they've never had to live without it. Freedom isn't free but sometimes wars have nothing whatsoever to do with securing or maintaining freedom. It's also the state's responsiblity to protect its citizens, not the other way around. If the state feels a draft is necessary to do so, it would be reasonable for the citizens to go freely and fight on both the state's behalf, and their own. If the state however feels a draft is necessary to expand its power or otherwise do things not about protecting freedom at all, the citizen should be able to decline to supply the state with that ability. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Redskins Diehard Posted January 31, 2010 Share Posted January 31, 2010 Well as a father of a son I don't want to see him shipped off to some war zone to be used as IED fodder in order to secure some oil well, and if he's over 18 and the draft is being reinstated I'll drive him to the nearest Coast Guard recruiting station and sign him up for whatever version of ROTC or OCS they offer. I may be mistaken(don't think I am) but aren't you a guy that used to complain about the cost of filling up your gas guzzling truck that you drove a inordinate number of miles to and from work? You need someone to secure those oil wells for you...may as well be someone else's son. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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