Military Drafts: What would you do?

[AsburySkinsFan]

Well then go ahead and call WWI unjustified as well. One of the main reasons we entered WWI was because a bunch of New York bankers led by the pro-British J.P. Morgan and his son John Morgan leant millions of dollars to the allied powers. One of the primary reasons Washington got involved was because they realized that if Britain fell it would destroy the American banking sector and economy. When we did finally get involved and the war was won it helped to catapult the USA to the world's leading economy. Almost every war, justified or not, has more to do with economics and corporate interests than anything else.

WWI was about our entangling alliances and how our commitments to those alliances pulled us into a war that began because of an assassination that was at most was an act of civil aggression, but I don't think you'll find anyone arguing that war is bad business.

The best thing that happened during WWI though was the Christmas Truce where soldiers from both sides met each other in no man's land, exchanged gifts and played soccer, many of whom went out of their way afterward to keep from killing the soldiers on the other side even to the point of coordinating artillery fire to limit casualties. And how were the commanders of those units thanked for this show of humanity and brotherhood? They were fired and replaced with others who tried to force the soldiers to kill one another.

[ZoEd]

Sometimes no matter how many times people are told to play nice, it seems that some just don't get it.

You make the remarks that you want to gather up all of those who won't fight for the country and ship them off and you really don't want to be compared to Nazis? As far as homosexuals in the military, as long as I am a citizen and a tax payer then I am free to express my opinions about how my government operates and that includes the military. What's more is that you have an odd understanding about this whole service thing you volunteered for; see civilians don't serve you instead you serve the civilians, you as an armed service member are an extension of the will of the people, not the other way around. You as an armed service member reflect what the people say, and what your commanders order. If you don't get that or understand that then I suggest you remove the stripes from your uniform. And when the military is open for gays then you'll have a choice to make, stay and serve or join me in civilian life.

BTW, as I am a civilian aren't you supposed to call me sir?

I serve my country, not individuals and their whims. I guess you're right, I do serve to preserve you're right to be a PAM. As far as calling you Sir, I reserve that address for those I respect.

As usual, you cherry pick things people say in posts and totally take them out of context to make yourself look morally superior but you tend to come off like a pompous ass instead. I said herd them, take the someplace that doesn't have freedom so they could see how precious it is. I didn't imply or insinuate putting them in concentration camps and gassing them. It was sarcasm, maybe your superior moral view prevents you from seeing that.

[Thiebear]

Our young haven't let us down before, i don't expect them to in the future.

I'm sure we wouldn't need a draft. Just a request.

I joined in 85...

[Thiebear]

Sometimes no matter how many times people are told to play nice, it seems that some just don't get it.

You make the remarks that you want to gather up all of those who won't fight for the country and ship them off and you really don't want to be compared to Nazis? As far as homosexuals in the military, as long as I am a citizen and a tax payer then I am free to express my opinions about how my government operates and that includes the military. What's more is that you have an odd understanding about this whole service thing you volunteered for; see civilians don't serve you instead you serve the civilians, you as an armed service member are an extension of the will of the people, not the other way around. You as an armed service member reflect what the people say, and what your commanders order. If you don't get that or understand that then I suggest you remove the stripes from your uniform. And when the military is open for gays then you'll have a choice to make, stay and serve or join me in civilian life.

BTW, as I am a civilian aren't you supposed to call me sir?

You should be as forgiving to a military man as you would be your own flock. SIR.

[Bang]

Well then go ahead and call WWI unjustified as well. One of the main reasons we entered WWI was because a bunch of New York bankers led by the pro-British J.P. Morgan and his son John Morgan leant millions of dollars to the allied powers. One of the primary reasons Washington got involved was because they realized that if Britain fell it would destroy the American banking sector and economy. When we did finally get involved and the war was won it helped to catapult the USA to the world's leading economy. Almost every war, justified or not, has more to do with economics and corporate interests than anything else.

Some do.

I agree that most wars are not for just reasons... Likewise of WWI is the Spanish American War which was whipped up by William Randolph Hearst to sell papers.

And even a just war like WWII, part of the root of it is money.. for it was the ridiculously high inflation in Germany that forged much of the unrest that allowed Hitler to come to power. It could be argued that Roosevelt is the last great world Conqueror, and he bartered a lot of the British Empire with surplus ships and arms through Lend Lease.

Our own revolution was sparked over taxes.

I'm not demonizing,, history is history. There's nothing we can do to change any of it, so we may as well see it for what it is.

~Bang

[AsburySkinsFan]

I serve my country, not individuals and their whims. I guess you're right, I do serve to preserve you're right to be a PAM.

A pam?

As far as calling you Sir, I reserve that address for those I respect.

See when I was in the Army we had to address all civilians as sir or ma'am, I guess in today's military they let you guys do what you want.

As usual, you cherry pick things people say in posts and totally take them out of context to make yourself look morally superior but you tend to come off like a pompous ass instead. I said herd them, take the someplace that doesn't have freedom so they could see how precious it is. I didn't imply or insinuate putting them in concentration camps and gassing them. It was sarcasm, maybe your superior moral view prevents you from seeing that.

And as usual you fly off the handle and resort to name calling and never consider that I was being sarcastic myself.

I'm done with you.

[AsburySkinsFan]

You should be as forgiving to a military man as you would be your own flock. SIR.

I challenge my flock to be better too, and I speak a word of correction to them as well, and if I had someone in my flock acting like this I'd be on their case too.

[ZoEd]

A pam? Piss and Moan

See when I was in the Army we had to address all civilians as sir or ma'am, I guess in today's military they let you guys do what you want. This isn't the first time you've questioned my service and quite honestly it's getting pretty old. Obviously you couldn't cut it so you had to bail

And as usual you fly off the handle and resort to name calling and never consider that I was being sarcastic myself. You mean like bigot or Nazi?

I'm done with you. Thank God!

[zoony]

Well, ASF, for what it's worth, I think it speaks a lot of your point of view in these types of threads that you regard a picture of Wal-Mart as this country's most iconic image, with the commentary "don't we wish it was something better".

So yah, when people such as yourself who don't find anything redeeming about the country they live in preach to the rest of us about how we should think/act in the roles we occupy, many in service to this great nation, it doesn't surprise me that so many find it highly annoying.

Of course, that's just my opinion of things

(and I should edit, because often folks tend to find it confusing, I am not speaking as a mod here. This is just my opinion as a member)

(edit #2- worst part about being a mod is having to put disclaimers like that in your posts)

........

[AsburySkinsFan]

Well, ASF, for what it's worth, I think it speaks a lot of your point of view in these types of threads that you regard a picture of Wal-Mart as this country's most iconic image, with the commentary "don't we wish it was something better".

So yah, when people such as yourself who don't find anything redeeming about the country they live in preach to the rest of us about how we should think/act in the roles we occupy, many in service to this great nation, it doesn't surprise me that so many find it highly annoying.

Of course, that's just my opinion of things

........

You don't think I find it annoying too, I just choose to no longer live a life of illusions. Sorry if that bothers folks. I just know that we can be better if we only opened our eyes as to who we really are.

[zoony]

You don't think I find it annoying too, I just choose to no longer live a life of illusions. Sorry if that bothers folks. I just know that we can be better if we only opened our eyes as to who we really are.

some might say it's a matter of perspective. Or even projection.

I tend to subscribe to that theory, with a few exceptions.

....

[Thiebear]

You don't think I find it annoying too, I just choose to no longer live a life of illusions. Sorry if that bothers folks. I just know that we can be better if we only opened our eyes as to who we really are.

And What exactly are we ASF, please, clue us in with exacting detail.

You seem to have no patience with those that allow you to preach from the gallery, while extolling your right to do so at your most sarcastic.

It seems to me the system is working as intended, but lets not believe for a second you are to be taken seriously.

[AsburySkinsFan]

some might say it's a matter of perspective. Or even projection.

I tend to subscribe to that theory, with a few exceptions.

....

But then Zoony we are all guilty of that and if we are all guilty of it then it is simply the way things are and thus not guilt at all, the only difference is the lenses that we use to view the world. I don't get mad at others because their worldview differs from mine, I accept that they have a different worldview and I present my own. For that I won't apologize and neither should they, however when there are personal attacks well that's a different matter...no?

[AsburySkinsFan]

And What exactly are we ASF, please, clue us in with exacting detail.

We are all humans who are of a fallen nature and as a result sinful and in need of the grace and mercy of God, called to live by his measure of righteousness.

You seem to have no patience with those that allow you to preach from the gallery, while extolling your right to do so at your most sarcastic.

See you say I'm preaching when I'm only expressing my opinion, funny how you don't say others are preaching when they take view points that oppose my own, but since I'm a preacher you know its an easy target. Sorry but your bias is showing. As far as my sarcasm, well that's just for funzies.

It seems to me the system is working as intended, but lets not believe for a second you are to be taken seriously.

The only reason you don't take me seriously is because you don't agree with me, otherwise you would love what I say, but then I don't expect any more than that.

[The Brave Little Toaster Oven]

No I would not. I'm a pacifist, my family and I would become refugees if anything. I might be convinced to supply the resistance with food, lodging etc. See the thing that most people don't understand is that I do not see my identity as being an American first and then everything else after, instead I am Christian first and then everything else after, and I can be a Christian in Russia, China, Africa or Nazi Germany, does that mean that I might pay with my life for my faith? Yes, but my life is comes second to my faith.

The whole CO thing seems like a huge cop out for me. I truly cannot see how someone would not die fighting for the country that gave them the freedom to be a pastor. If youre scared to die, just say youre scared; hiding behind religion is cowardly. :2cents:

Suppose you march up to attack a city. Before you attack it, offer peace to its people. 11 Suppose they accept your offer and open their gates. Then force all of the people in the city to be your slaves. They will have to work for you.

12 But suppose they refuse your offer of peace and prepare for battle. Then surround that city. Get ready to attack it. 13 The Lord your God will hand it over to you. When he does, kill all of the men with your swords.

14 But you can take the women and children for yourselves. You can also take the livestock and everything else in the city. What you have captured from your enemies you can use for yourselves. The Lord your God has given it to you.

15 That's how you must treat all of the cities that are far away from you. Those cities don't belong to the nations that are nearby.

[Thiebear]

The only reason you don't take me seriously is because you don't agree with me, otherwise you would love what I say, but then I don't expect any more than that.

Actually, if you paid attention I agree with quite a few people on this site that i disagree with in quite a few things.. I normally don't get all riled up like that but as you said.. I expect more from you specifically.

[Redskins Diehard]

I'm also the guy who now rides a 73 mpg scooter to work.:pfft:

I knew I was right.

I find it ironic that a gluttonous user of fuel for so long would make snide comments about a war to provide him said fuel. That assumes of course that the very (insert word for not well or honestly thought out) position that Iraq = oil profits was actually true.

[hkHog]

I knew I was right.

I find it ironic that a gluttonous user of fuel for so long would make snide comments about a war to provide him said fuel. That assumes of course that the very (insert word for not well or honestly thought out) position that Iraq = oil profits was actually true.

I also find it very strange that people in this thread have been using Nazi Germany as an example of when they would not be willing to go to war for their country. Seriously, we are Nazis?

[twa]

I also find it very strange that people in this thread have been using Nazi Germany as an example of when they would not be willing to go to war for their country. Seriously, we are Nazis?

It is kinda confusing,I couda swore we were going the socialist/communist route;)

Did fascism make a comeback?

[skinfan133]

I would do my duty to my state and country. I would defend my home without hesitation. A year ago I would have said it wouldn't have mattered one way or another since i was convinced I was commissioning, but now I don't k ow what I'm doing after VMI...

[Jumbo]

Of course, that's just my opinion (and I should edit, because often folks tend to find it confusing, I am not speaking as a mod here. This is just my opinion as a member)

Just the other day, someone was making a point to refer you and me "as members and not as mods" but they used a different word meaning "member"....

I guess I'm real open-minded. I like anti-war people as long as they are respectful to and supportive military personnel (as a rule). But I also am open to shooting people, and think doing so with government sanction or in a legal framework has advantages.

I have felt it would be tough to have a strong religious background and still be comfortable with many of our wars (and I'm aware of the justifications used) when it comes to taking another human being's life. Like, given how big a deal Christianity says killing another person is and you shouldn’t do it (it’s a Big Deal), how big a direct threat to my safety, or the safety of anyone I love, or even to my country, was that North Vietnamese or that Iraqi who never harmed or threatened me, my family, my friends, or my community in any other than the most distended political, theoretical, potentially-possible manner?

Yet I am supposed to go after that faceless unknown mother****er who’s done none of those things and kill him big time in any variety of ways, up close or from a distance depending on my job qualifications, just because my always right-on-the-money brilliant and ethical political leaders told me “It’s ok. It’s important you do kill them.”

I mean I don’t trust these guys, right or left, with one hard-earned dollar and they're almost all liars, cons, and incompetents, but they have the spiritual/intellectual wisdom to let me know killing some guy thousands of miles away is “fine and dandy” and I’m to saddle up, chant a march, and lock-n-load. Gets pretty hinkey pretty quick IMO.

But, that’s just “thinking.” Seriously, for a number of my own reasons, I'd go stand alongside any other dumb SOB (macho straight or flaming gay by the way) from the USA (even the south) and do it. I’m a good shot and I don't mind.

[Chachie]

I would do my duty to my state and country. I would defend my home without hesitation. A year ago I would have said it wouldn't have mattered one way or another since i was convinced I was commissioning, but now I don't k ow what I'm doing after VMI...

I joined the Navy in '86. I wasn't feeling patriotic to be honest. I was not doing well in college and knew I wasn't mature enough to have that much time on my hands, so I decided to occupy it. I served an active hitch and a reserve hitch. I'm not sure if I'm too old to be re-activated or not but I'd go.

[zoony]

I mean I don’t trust these guys, right or left, with one hard-earned dollar and they they’re almost all liars, cons, and incompetents, but they have the spiritual/intellectual wisdom to let me know killing some guy thousands of miles away is “fine and dandy” and I’m to saddle up, chant a march, and lock-n-load. Gets pretty hinkey pretty quick IMO.

I certainly agree- I think trying to rationalize Christian beliefs with war is a very slippery slope. But nonetheless it's been done for thousands of years. So in that respect it is almost a moot point.

Now that said, WWII was flooded with stories about conscientious objectors who volunteered for medic duty. And would often run out into enemy gunfire to tend to the wounded and dying. And the chaplains who did similar things.

So, I think there is something also to the idea that belief structure is a cop-out. Because to me, if your Christian religious beliefs are strong enough to prevent you from wanting to fight for your country- then they ought to also be strong enough for you to want to ease suffering and provide comfort to those who need it most

.......

[Prosperity]

I certainly agree- I think trying to rationalize Christian beliefs with war is a very slippery slope. But nonetheless it's been done for thousands of years. So in that respect it is almost a moot point.

Now that said, WWII was flooded with stories about conscientious objectors who volunteered for medic duty. And would often run out into enemy gunfire to tend to the wounded and dying. And the chaplains who did similar things.

So, I think there is something also to the idea that belief structure is a cop-out. Because to me, if your Christian religious beliefs are strong enough to prevent you from wanting to fight for your country- then they ought to also be strong enough for you to want to ease suffering and provide comfort to those who need it most

.......

ehh I can easily see how being a medic is an equal "cop out" like 'yeah I object to the war but I'll just support the war machine in a slightly less direct way.' A medic is a useful tool in a very big arsenal aimed at the destruction of others. One way or another, if you join up, you give up your individuality and become a part of the war machine*.

*(I don't think there's anything inherently wrong with giving up individuality, or becoming an integral part of a large scale venture.)

[Jumbo]

I certainly agree- I think trying to rationalize Christian beliefs with war is a very slippery slope. But nonetheless it's been done for thousands of years. So in that respect it is almost a moot point.

Now that said, WWII was flooded with stories about conscientious objectors who volunteered for medic duty. And would often run out into enemy gunfire to tend to the wounded and dying. And the chaplains who did similar things.

So, I think there is something also to the idea that belief structure is a cop-out. Because to me, if your Christian religious beliefs are strong enough to prevent you from wanting to fight for your country- then they ought to also be strong enough for you to want to ease suffering and provide comfort to those who need it most.......

Absolutely. Or the USO. Or any Rosie the Riveter capacity. And I was sorta engaging in some fun hyperbole about two things that I always found curious---how strongly Christian right-leaning demographics are consistently supportive of most wars in polling and in observation. It seems almost counter-intuitive with the whole "killing" thing seeming to come too easy (despite the Biblical justifications typically deployed--please no one need respond by telling me how the Bible explains why it's ok--I've heard it). So when I see a Christian taking a strong anti-war stance it at least seems intuitively appropriate. The other point was how many of the same folk who regularly lambaste Congress and POTUS for all manners of fail seem to take their rationales for giving "Kill Orders" on large numbers of people comparatively easily. Just seems odd at times. Not to hijack.