method man Posted January 7, 2010 Share Posted January 7, 2010 Something I've been seeing a lot of over the past month has been people saying things like "I'm done with this organization if we don't draft Okung" or "we better go OL in the first." You guys have to remember that the ZBS scheme depends on lighter more athletic linemen. Thus, guys like Anthony Davis, Okung, Iupati, and Trent Williams might not necessarily fit the ZBS. Instead, when discussing linemen, we should focus discussion on guys like Charles Brown and Selvish Capers, the lighter more athletic guys who would be perfect fits in the ZBS. So, keep in mind when you do your draft research, to pay attention to a prospect's relative athleticism and height/weight combo among other factors. I insist that when you do draft research on linemen, take a look at http://seahawksdraft.blogspot.com/ The Seahawks also run a ZBS and look for similar linemen to the ones we look for. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigMike21 Posted January 7, 2010 Share Posted January 7, 2010 Interesting. Walter Jones is pretty massive though isn't he? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
amm11387 Posted January 7, 2010 Share Posted January 7, 2010 Don't know if you can pass up talent like Okung if we stay with the 4th pick, especially with our glaring line needs. Hopefully we'll trade down and get a few more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hieverybody Posted January 7, 2010 Share Posted January 7, 2010 I believe that Iowa runs a zone blocking scheme which has made me pay a lot of attention to Bryan Bulaga. For whatever reason, Iowa has played with the tight end over him, which gives me some pause, but whenever he is isolated outside he still handles himself well. I don't believe any of these offensive linemen should be taken at #4. Let's trade down. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mistertim Posted January 7, 2010 Share Posted January 7, 2010 Okung is extremely athletic and agile. He is, I believe, 6'5 305 which is relatively light. Anthony Davis is also very athletic and agile for a guy his size (he is about the same height but 325 or something). The main thing for me is whether they have any prior experience in a ZBS. Obviously they could learn, but it would make the learning curve much smaller if they already had that experience. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SirClintonPortis Posted January 7, 2010 Share Posted January 7, 2010 Ryan Clady is 6-6 325 lbs. Hardly small. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Enter Apotheosis Posted January 7, 2010 Share Posted January 7, 2010 You guys have to remember that the ZBS scheme depends on lighter more athletic linemen. Edited for accuracy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Going Commando Posted January 7, 2010 Share Posted January 7, 2010 I don't know, of the group of tackles you list I think only Trent Williams might lack the agillity to thrive in a zone scheme. Maybe you could make this a platitude for linemen you are targeting in the mid to late rounds but we are talking about a top 5 pick offensive tackle. Every guy has to adjust to a scheme of some sort and an elite tackle should be able to flourish in any scheme be it in line or zone. Otherwise, I think it's clear that they aren't really elite. Take for instance Ryan Clady. He was an odd fit for a ZBS coming out of college because he looked pretty heavy and didn't have any prior familiarity with zone plays in college or cut blocking or off blocking. Two years later he's the best LT in the league in a heavily zone scheme. But he was an elite prospect and had good coaching and he made the switch. Guys like Anthony Davis and Okung need to be able to do the same if they are taken in the top 10. And other posters are right, you can certainly have fat boys zone block well if they've got the footspeed and the understanding of the scheme. This will probably be one of the fastest set of OTs to come out in a while with guys like Bulaga, Williams, Brown, Campbell, Capers, Carimi, Solder all having a legit chance to run a sub 5 second 40. The ability to do everything they'd need to in a zone scheme is there. It's all about their coaching developing them successfully. Undersized tackles like Charles Brown are the ones who are limited, or are at least just as limited as the Phil Loadholts of the league. They succeed in the ZBS because they can't succeed in any other scheme--in spite of their limitations not because of them. What we want is a guy who has size, power, and athleticism. We want a guy who drive blocks as well as he gets to the second level and cut blocks and shuts down edge rushers. He's got to be able to do it all to be an elite player worthy of our high pick. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
isaacis881 Posted January 7, 2010 Share Posted January 7, 2010 In the end elite o line men have winning records and those that don't, dont get noticed. I don't care who he brings in but I can't help but wonder if there a TE that could be a tackle in this draft ala Jason Peters type? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkinsNorth Posted January 7, 2010 Share Posted January 7, 2010 Ryan Clady is 6-6 325 lbs. Hardly small. But when he was drafted he was just over 300lbs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Veretax Posted January 7, 2010 Share Posted January 7, 2010 I'd be skiddish about Selvish Capers to be honest. Without seeing highlights of just what he's doing I'm not sure I'd go with him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KDawg Posted January 7, 2010 Share Posted January 7, 2010 This is a very good and valid point. Zone blocking schemes don't require the mauling type of lineman. It requires a guy that can move. If that guy is a big strong ox, then bonus. You need to move and be able to engage a man and open a running lane. That's it. If you can't move them, you need to be able to cut consistently. I feel much better about NOT going OL in the first with this zone blocking scheme. But I still want to go OL in the first... But in Allen/Shanahan I trust. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skinz248 Posted January 7, 2010 Share Posted January 7, 2010 Something I've been seeing a lot of over the past month has been people saying things like "I'm done with this organization if we don't draft Okung" or "we better go OL in the first."You guys have to remember that the ZBS scheme depends on lighter more athletic linemen. Thus, guys like Anthony Davis, Okung, Iupati, and Trent Williams might not necessarily fit the ZBS. Instead, when discussing linemen, we should focus discussion on guys like Charles Brown and Selvish Capers, the lighter more athletic guys who would be perfect fits in the ZBS. So, keep in mind when you do your draft research, to pay attention to a prospect's relative athleticism and height/weight combo among other factors. I insist that when you do draft research on linemen, take a look at http://seahawksdraft.blogspot.com/ The Seahawks also run a ZBS and look for similar linemen to the ones we look for. Shanahan said in his presser he does not know what type of blocking scheme he will use, but whatever he decides will be based on the ABILITY of the players that we have when the season rolls around. Shanahan is willing to ADAPT while Zorn was stubborn and did not want to change up the way plays were called. Shanahan will put together an offensive system that suits our guys, not his old players in Denver. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old Bay Posted January 7, 2010 Share Posted January 7, 2010 Shanahan said in his presser he does not know what type of blocking scheme he will use, but whatever he decides will be based on the ABILITY of the players that we have when the season rolls around. That's already an improvement. However, considering the shape of the line, he could conceivably bring in new guys craft a new one in the image he wanted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CommDownMan Posted January 7, 2010 Share Posted January 7, 2010 So maybe we get my favorite RT option? 320 pounds and a 4.9 40 would fit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HigSkin Posted January 7, 2010 Share Posted January 7, 2010 Shanahan said in his presser he does not know what type of blocking scheme he will use, but whatever he decides will be based on the ABILITY of the players that we have when the season rolls around. Shanahan is willing to ADAPT while Zorn was stubborn and did not want to change up the way plays were called. Shanahan will put together an offensive system that suits our guys, not his old players in Denver. Bingo! Dollars to donuts, Shanny grabs oline in lower rounds and finds undrafted guys. He'll cherry pick some here now, like Doc and the rebuild begins. EDIT: I like the way he is not "tipping" his hand on our schemes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chaos Posted January 7, 2010 Share Posted January 7, 2010 Ryan Clady is 6-6 325 lbs. Hardly small. Ding Ding Ding. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Going Commando Posted January 7, 2010 Share Posted January 7, 2010 But when he was drafted he was just over 300lbs. Are you sure about this? He weighed in at 316 at the combine. If anything, I expect he gained weight rather than lost it in the period from the combine to the draft. Regardless, the point remains that he's a heavy player, plays in a ZBS, and is the best LT in the league. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Going Commando Posted January 7, 2010 Share Posted January 7, 2010 Shanahan said in his presser he does not know what type of blocking scheme he will use, but whatever he decides will be based on the ABILITY of the players that we have when the season rolls around. Shanahan is willing to ADAPT while Zorn was stubborn and did not want to change up the way plays were called. Shanahan will put together an offensive system that suits our guys, not his old players in Denver. That's not fair to Zorn at all. He completely changed his running game to suit our pre-existing one when he got here and he kept the power man blocking scheme in tact his first year even though it's not what he knew from Seattle in that Holmgren WCO. Zorn was extremely adaptive and he never really got any of his own players at QB, RB, or on the OL and I think it's unlikely he had much input on the Kelly, Thomas, and Davis picks. He had a completely **** situation to work with. I'd rather we go ahead and make any changes we have to to suit Shanahan right now. As far as the OL goes, our slate has never been blanker. I think it's nearly a certainty that we'll incorporate more and more zone plays in our offense. We already started to move in that direction this year and Shanahan drafted Clady, Chris Kuper, Ryan Harris, and Ben Hamilton. I'm confident in his ability to find suitable OL talent at any level in the draft and that includes the first round. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warpath11 Posted January 7, 2010 Share Posted January 7, 2010 I'd rather we go ahead and make any changes we have to to suit Shanahan right now. As far as the OL goes, our slate has never been blanker. I think it's nearly a certainty that we'll incorporate more and more zone plays in our offense. We already started to move in that direction this year and Shanahan drafted Clady, Chris Kuper, Ryan Harris, and Ben Hamilton. I'm confident in his ability to find suitable OL talent at any level in the draft and that includes the first round. I think we will be moving to a more zone blocking scheme as well, as you point out, it may not be a full on ZBS early on but by year 2 in the program we should have the players necessary to run it full time. I too am amazed at Shanahan's ability to find sevicable-to-good interior linemen in the later rounds of the draft. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dead Money Posted January 7, 2010 Share Posted January 7, 2010 I think its premature to think that its automatic that we will be a zone blocking team. This is the NFC East that features 3 of the best defensive lines in football. Shanny has had over a year to decide what he wants to do in the NFC East, we can throw it around with assumptions all winter long, but honestly nobody can tell me that they are 100% certain that he is going to run the exact same scheme he was running in Denver. That zone scheme was fine 6 games a yr vs the Raiders, Chiefs and San Diego at the time, but here? I'm not so sure. Ok admittedly, I never saw a Texans game while Kyle's been there, but they play Colts, Jags, Titans right? Not exactly the most fearsome defensive lines there huh? He won't answer what he's going to do, I don't expect him to. But there won't be any clues for this part for a long time all we can do is sit back and wait for his first move, right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Going Commando Posted January 7, 2010 Share Posted January 7, 2010 So maybe we get my favorite RT option? 320 pounds and a 4.9 40 would fit. I would seriously worry about a guy making the jump from division II to the NFL. Maybe skill position players and linebackers can have a decent time with the transition, but it is extremely difficult for offensive linemen to handle the move. I'll bet Veldheer has never played against a guy who's going to the NFL. Look at how hard Chad Rinehart has struggled since entering the league and he played 1-AA. At the very least, I wouldn't expect Veldheer to start any time soon if we drafted him. The numbers make him worth considering in the 6th or 7th round but I wouldn't take him too much higher unless the scouts see something there that just absolutely blows them away. In that case, I wouldn't take him above the fourth round. There should be guys who fit in the system in that range who are already better prepared for the league. For instance, two mid-late round targets we should key in on are Rodger Saffold from Indiana and Mitch Petrus from Arkansas. We need to come away with Petrus period. If we have to trade something to get a 3rd round pick, then we should do it but I think he could be available early in the fourth. The top tier guards like Asomoah and Iupati will probably be out of our price range so we'll have to get creative at the position. Petrus is a perfect schematic fit for us and I like his demeanor and versatillity. We'll be hard pressed to find a better pulling guard and he'll crush those stretch plays. He was a former fullback so he excels at getting out in front of runners and he's already a tremendous cut blocker. He should be one of our top priorities in the draft for the mid rounds. I mentioned him and the OP mentioned him, and I definitely think Iupati could dominate in a zone scheme, but I imagine he'll go early second or late first and I'm not sure we should spend that high of a draft pick on a guard without giving Dockery and Rinehart a chance. Plus, I'm thinking that there is going to be a really good OT/RB/dlinemen available with that high pick in the second round we've got. I'd rather spend it on a guy like Greg Hardy, Jahvid Best, Gabe Carimi, Nate Solder, Bryan Bulaga, Jerry Hughes, Brian Price, or Art Jones. Maybe even Carlos Dunlap? One or more of those guys is going to fall because not everyone can go in the first. Saffold looks like he could be a decent RT in a zone scheme or a pretty good guard. He has excellent short area athleticism but isn't a very powerful or well-schooled player. If we can get him in the 5th, that would be excellent value for him and we could sit him for a little while to get him ready to play. I'm not at all impressed by Selvish Capers. He just doesn't look that good. You're drafting him entirely on potential. He's another guy that would probably have to ride the pine for a while before you can think about starting him. We should have better options available this year and next. Also another player I really like is Steve Schilling from Michigan if he declares. He has excellent pro potential and he has a ton of room for growth and improvement. I think he can become a dominant guard or center and he's good enough to start fairly early should we need him too. If we wanted to beef up the line with later picks, we should acquire a third round pick. Then I'd draft Schilling in the third, Petrus in the fourth, and Saffold in the 5th. Iowa has a pretty good guard too but we should be sitting well after those picks. At least on the interior, should neither Dockery nor Rinehart make the adjustment. And Saffold gives you some versatility to play RT and Schilling could play Center. Thomas Austin from Clemson is another guy who you might be able to get undrafted to play center. Lastly, should Shanahan decide he'd like to move forward with Jason Campbell, or should he decide that Sam Bradford isn't worth the 4th overall choice, then my favorite OL scenario of all is one where we somehow manage to draft both Anthony Davis and Bryan Bulaga. I'd play Davis at LT and Bulaga at RT and start them immediately. They are both 20 years old and have the potential to develop into dominant starters at those positions. We'd have far and away the best set of tackles in the league--Davis is your Ryan Clady and Bulaga is your Jake Long, and we'd have the flexibility to run all kinds of protections and running plays because they are elite bookends. Add Petrus into the mix and then perhaps draft someone like Schilling, Wisniewski, or O'Dowd in 2011 if Edwin Williams doesn't work out and then I think we'd have the the best offensive line in the league in a season or two. If Campbell made the leap to the next level under Shanahan and with excellent protection and the full development of his receivers, then we'd be free to go RB in the first round of 2011--a year when both Mark Ingram and Ryan Williams will be draft eligible... I'm a firm believer in talent we have at receiver with Cooley, Davis, Thomas, Kelly, and Moss moving into a position in the slot. If we draft Davis, Bulaga, and Petrus this year and Wisniewski and Ryan Williams next, and Campbell continues to improve, it's not inconceivable that we will have assembled the pieces of the most talented offense in the league in two drafts. OR if Bradford gets a really high grade as a future Phil Rivers or Drew Brees style QB, draft him at 4, find a way to trade back into the early first for Anthony Davis, Bryan Bulaga, or Bruce Campbell if he falls a little, and then draft Petrus in the mid rounds. Trade Campbell and Cooley if you have to. Then in 2011 look for a top OT like Boling, Carimi, King, whoever--perhaps a LT if you draft Bulaga, and draft the center. Then look for your RB in the later rounds or pick a stud in 2012. This way you've got an elite offensive line built, great receivers, and Shanahan's own QB as the maestro of the offense. Shrewd drafting and good player development will allow us to rebuild this offense into one of the best in the league in 2 or 3 seasons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GibbsFactor Posted January 7, 2010 Share Posted January 7, 2010 Don't know if you can pass up talent like Okung if we stay with the 4th pick, especially with our glaring line needs. Hopefully we'll trade down and get a few more. So why is Okung such a great fit for us? Does anyone know or is it just that he's the "top" lineman available? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skins93077 Posted January 7, 2010 Share Posted January 7, 2010 Watching okung in his recent bowl game he did good, but he didn't over power the defender. I don't like that. As a left tackle you need to dominate ur man. I'm comparing him to davis and well davis is the ideal left tackle. I say we figure out a way to drop down and let whomever wants what is on the board be it suh, bradford, claussen to fight it out lol Let them give us allot for whomever they want and then we pick up davis. I see shanahan already playing stupid in not saying were going qb and that campbell is our make... That in turn will make other teans eager to get our 4th pick and give us something of greater value in return... And well with that we get more good picks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth Tater Posted January 7, 2010 Share Posted January 7, 2010 Actually, I've read the "I am done" comment mostly from those who want to go another direction than lineman. Pretty stupid comment no matter what. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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