Senator Kennedy's Death: What It Means to You

[NavyDave]

Right now it means I'm going to be called mean spirited when I point out the Democrats today now trying to put Kennedy's name on the healthcare bill and promising to pass it no matter what.

Using The Death Card to push this agenda isn't going to fly.

[Baculus]

That's fine. I understand what you are trying to say.

I guess I'm coming from a different angle than most. Having dealt with the death of a loved one through an alcohol related accident, my feelings about drunken accidents are a bit stronger than most people's. Most people can laugh at videos of drunk drivers getting pulled over (obviously if no one got hurt) or gloss over these things as a "mistake," a mistake that diminishes over the decades (as what has seemed to happen in this case). I'm not "normal" like that, I know that it's not just a "mistake" or "bad decision" to the loved ones of the victim.

BTW, I wanted to add this -- there is no evidence that Kennedy was drunk. He left the party early and he drove off a road, with an odd angled bridge lacking guard rails, of which he was not familiar.

There is no doubt Kennedy was responsible and negligent, but some of the attributes of this event have become mythical.

[Baculus]

Right now it means I'm going to be called mean spirited when I point out the Democrats today now trying to put Kennedy's name on the healthcare bill and promising to pass it no matter what.

Using The Death Card to push this agenda isn't going to fly.

Health care was one his life's work. He even came close to successfully legislation a universal system with President Nixon.

There is nothing wrong with memorializing the legislation considering how hard he'd worked on this issue.

[PokerPacker]

BTW, I wanted to add this -- there is no evidence that Kennedy was drunk.

yeah, 'cause he made sure to go home and sober up rather than get help for the girl he trapped in the sinking car.

[NavyDave]

Health care was one his life's work. He even came close to successfully legislation a universal system with President Nixon.

There is nothing wrong with memorializing the legislation considering how hard he'd worked on this issue.

Yeah he stuck to his convictions though alot of them I disagreed with. Heck NOW they admit Dubba ya allowed Kennedy to write the largest education bill at the time and had a big hand in the no child left behind act (its a great thing now), though liberals and the media bash dubba for not doing anything for the kids at the time

Attempting to ram it thru by trying to play on the emotions of small portion of the population along the North East corridor will come back to bite them in the posterior and it would take more than a decade to undo this mess.

[Baculus]

Yeah he stuck to his convictions though alot of them I disagreed with. Heck NOW they admit Dubba ya allowed Kennedy to write the largest education bill at the time and had a big hand in the no child left behind act (its a great thing now), though liberals and the media bash dubba for not doing anything for the kids at the time

I agree that Bush should have received more credit for his efforts (even though the program wasn't properly funded). The same goes for past Presidents such as Nixon, who also deserved more credit for some of his programs.

BTW, No Child was a joint program -- both sides had an investment into it.

Attempting to ram it thru by trying to play on the emotions of small portion of the population along the North East corridor will come back to bite them in the posterior and it would take more than a decade to undo this mess.

Kennedy meant a lot to those people in the Northeast corridor. Considering the nature of the bill, I think it is entirely appropriate. Like I said earlier, improving health care was his life-long ambition for this country.

[chipwhich]

(its a great thing now)

Would love to see the data on that.

[Baculus]

yeah, 'cause he made sure to go home and sober up rather than get help for the girl he trapped in the sinking car.

He did get help -- friends and family, when they went back to the car to dive for Mary Jo. He also dived several times to rescue her when the accident initially happened, but my impression is that the dark, cold war probably didn't provide much of a chance for this to happen.

He didn't call professionals. This was his mistake. This is where he stands to fault. Not only that, but he didn't report it.

There is not a single person, most of all Mary Jo's family, who doesn't wish Kennedy could have saved this young lady from a drowning death.

The unfortunate truth is that, after a period of time, nothing anyone could have done, once the accident happened and Kennedy could not rescue her, could have saved her in 1972.

He was a man on the verge of running for the office, and he made the wrong choices because of it. He deserves to be criticized for that, but, as I said before, I will not disregard his Congressional efforts because of this accident.

[Hubbs]

I didn't see this posted already, but this is a long thread, so apologies if I missed it. Anyway, Sarah Palin's Facebook friends are writing some really awful stuff on her wall:

"thank you for maintaining my belief in you as a real american, however this country is now much better off, one less socialist, anti freedom senator."

"Now if we could just talk God into taking Arlin Spector, Harry Reid,and Nancy Pelosi America would be Eutopia!"

"good riddens"

"If he makes it into Heaven (& I doubt he will with his stance on abortion) I hope that God makes him babysit all the aborted children for eternity. God have mercy on his soul."

"Ted Kennedy dying has made my day...."

(For the record, Palin wrote a nice message about Kennedy herself, this isn't at all prompted by anything she's said.)

[Baculus]

I didn't see this posted already, but this is a long thread, so apologies if I missed it. Anyway, Sarah Palin's Facebook friends are writing some really awful stuff on her wall:

(For the record, Palin wrote a nice message about Kennedy herself, this isn't at all prompted by anything she's said.)

Not surprised one teeny, tiny bit. I have seen this stuff on other websites as well. As I said, the right-wing hated him. Kennedy must have done something write to piss off lunatics.

[Special K]

I didn't see this posted already, but this is a long thread, so apologies if I missed it. Anyway, Sarah Palin's Facebook friends are writing some really awful stuff on her wall:

(For the record, Palin wrote a nice message about Kennedy herself, this isn't at all prompted by anything she's said.)

That's unfortunate. They seem to hate the man based simply on his political affiliation, which I don't agree with at all. I also do not condone anyone, ever, saying they are "glad" someone is dead (well, actually, I don't blame family members of victims of violent crimes who go to watch the perpetrator be put to death, I don't blame them for saying that...although I don't know how I'd feel, never been in that particular situation).

So, I would never go that far to say I'm ever "glad" about anyone dying, ever...ESPECIALLY based on a political affiliation.

I do not think it is unreasonable to state that you are "non-plus" about a death. Certainly I'm not the end-all, be-all of reading someone's heart...but I don't think one should be bashed for having opinions about someone based on personal feelings.

Now, for all the liberals on here claiming I don't know the situation, don't know if he was "drunk," etc...what are you smoking? You have got to be kidding me. I also have another question: when was the last time you remember a coroner's case not undergoing an autopsy? Why do you think Mary Jo's family has NEVER really publicly spoken at length about this case?

[SkinsHokieFan]

My dad relayed a story to me tonight about Senator Kennedy

A little small background. He has been in Washington DC since 1962 and worked in a big time DC hotel from 1963 until the late 1970s.

My dad has bumped into quite a few people in his time in DC, (like being in an elevator with LBJ at the hotel he worked) and he of course had a story about Teddy

While Ted Kennedy was one hell of a legislator, a deal maker and stood strong for his beliefs, all admirable traits, it is also true the man was a drunk.

Dad was at a party at his hotel working security in the late 60s and the bar tender asks my dad just to watch the bar while he had to go do something for a few minutes.

Up comes Ted (who my dad did describe as a charmer and a good looking, real nice guy) who asks my dad "for the usual"

Of course my dad has no idea what he is talking about, informs the Senator he is not the bartender, but Ted wants his usual scotch.

Walks behind the bar, pours out 3 shots, and downs each of them, leaves a tip, and goes back to the party as if nothing happened

[SkinsHokieFan]

I agree that Bush should have received more credit for his efforts (even though the program wasn't properly funded). The same goes for past Presidents such as Nixon, who also deserved more credit for some of his programs.

BTW, No Child was a joint program -- both sides had an investment into it.

.

Come on man, do you fall for the "NLCB was not properly funded" lie?

Education spending at the national level went from 42 something billion in 2001 to 67 billion in 2008 (inflation adjusted) :hysterical:

A huge increase in 7 years. And NLCB was not properly funded, what a joke of a left wing meme

http://www.heritage.org/research/taxes/upload/federalspendingbythenumbers2008.pdf

On page 4 of this report it states "the 2001 federal No Child Left Behind Act which is responsible for much of the 58 percent inflation adjusted increase in education spending from 2001 to 2008"

Please please lets stop with the "NLCB was not properly funded" lie, when education spending increased on average 6.8 percent (inflation adjusted) per year from 2001 to 2008, and by 58 percent total (inflation adjusted again) from 2001 to 2008

[PokerPacker]

No Child Left Behind is legislating Education. Education is specifically reserved to the states in The Constitution. I don't feel I need to finish that train of thought.

[thedoc4454]

The price of scotch should plummet, so we got that going for us.

[The 12th Commandment]

Nm.........................

I never particularly liked Kennedy, he's too far left for my tastes, but I can respect his effectiveness and hard work (just like I can for Newt who I also think has his issues) while accepting that he was seriously flawed.

If folks on the right where ever forgiving of anyone outside of gop philanderer's it would seem more honest to me.

[MassSkinsFan]

Let that last sentence sink in. Think about how it applies to the person that many are mourning today.

What evidence can you offer that he was not remorseful?

[MassSkinsFan]

Health care was one his life's work. He even came close to successfully legislation a universal system with President Nixon.

There is nothing wrong with memorializing the legislation considering how hard he'd worked on this issue.

Actually, he was one of the reasons that Nixon's system was defeated. He spent the next 30-some-odd years kicking himself for missing the opportunity to get a foot in the door. Actually, this was a real lesson for him - accept compromise that is less than perfect, as long as it moves things in the right direction.

As for the Dems using him to their advantage here, I find it disrespectful and highly opportunistic. If there was a sincere bi-partisan push to put forth legistation on universal healthcare under his name, I'd be plenty happy about it, but this... :doh:

[MassSkinsFan]

Kennedy meant a lot to those people in the Northeast corridor.

QFT.

He was transported from the compound on the Cape up to Boston yesterday and there were people lining the procession route - all 70 miles of it. He was to lie in repose at the JFK Library yesterday from sometime in the afternoon until 11PM, then again today. The crowds were so large that the Library decided to stay open all night so there could be continuous visits by the public up until time for his body to go to the funeral.

If any of you are interested, you should check local Boston TV coverage - there are tons and tons of stories about the man, especially from "common people" who were somehow touched or helped by his actions.

[Lombardi's_kid_brother]

Hypothetical scenario and question. Your younger sister (who lives alone in a nice home) was robbed of her possessions last night - the only thing she has are the clothes on her back. The person who committed the crime threatens to kill her.

Several years later: This person is now running for Congress and his crime is well known. How would you feel about him?

Depends. Do I feel he has made amends? Do I feel that he has changed his life?

I have a very Italian view of revenge and forgiveness. You hurt me and don't ask for forgiveness? I hurt you back. And then it's over. If you ask for forgiveness, I decide if I want to grant it and then, again, it's over.

Kennedy carried the stain of Chappaquidick for his entire life. It almost certainly cost him the White House. His behavior has never been fully explained and now never will.

But I honestly don't know what was supposed to happen to him.

It's ironic that I was watching "Rachel Getting Married" last night. I won't spoil it, but Anne Hathaway's character is an addict in her mid-20s who just completed her latest 9-month stint in rehab. Her addiction has led to actions in the past that essentially destroyed her family. There is a scene where she says that she has asked for forgiveness but doesn't know if she wants to believe in a God who is willing to forgive her. And she doesn't know how to live with the guilt of what she has done.

So, I have a hard time filtering an entire life through an awful night 40 years ago.

[Rocky21]

Now, for all the liberals on here claiming I don't know the situation, don't know if he was "drunk," etc...what are you smoking? You have got to be kidding me. I also have another question: when was the last time you remember a coroner's case not undergoing an autopsy? Why do you think Mary Jo's family has NEVER really publicly spoken at length about this case?

I've read a lot of your posts in this thread and think your dislike for the late Senator Kennedy has EVERYTHING to do with his political affiliation and nothing to do with you losing respect for him over Chappaquiddick. You don't need to convince me, of course, I'm just not buying it.

[Special K]

I've read a lot of your posts in this thread and think your dislike for the late Senator Kennedy has EVERYTHING to do with his political affiliation and nothing to do with you losing respect for him over Chappaquiddick. You don't need to convince me, of course, I'm just not buying it.

That's fine. Although I don't know where you'd get that since I haven't talked about or expressed any opinions of his policies while in office even once in this thread. But you're free to believe what you want.

I will say however, I shouldn't have addressed my previous statement to "liberals." I should have said to people defending him and telling me I don't really know anything about the situation when they, in fact, don't know at all what I may or may not know about the situation. I just knew the political affiliation of the posters who have been telling me I don't know anything and used that, but, that was not completely fair on my part. I shouldn't have narrowed the field to just "liberals" telling me what I don't know.

[Henry]

I've read a lot of your posts in this thread and think your dislike for the late Senator Kennedy has EVERYTHING to do with his political affiliation and nothing to do with you losing respect for him over Chappaquiddick. You don't need to convince me, of course, I'm just not buying it.

Ok.

I've pretty much stayed out of all these threads due to the whole "if you don't have anything nice to say" thing. I am not entering this one to trash Kennedy. This is not the time and place.

But I'm a left-of-center person and I've never gotten over the Chappaquiddick incident either. It's a pretty big deal to me. I am glad that Kennedy was able to move forward and do some good with his life, and that's what I'm trying to remember now during the days right after his death, but you can't rationalize away the extreme negligence he showed that night with 'hey, everyone makes mistakes.' Nothing I've read from posters I respect a great, great deal like DjTj and Baculus has changed my opinion on that.

Keeastman is not some partisan hack. You may disagree with her opinions (I know I usually do ), but I've never known her to be dishonest for the sake of politics. She calls it like she sees it. And I think that's what she's doing now.

[DjTj]

Ok.

I've pretty much stayed out of all these threads due to the whole "if you don't have anything nice to say" thing. I am not entering this one to trash Kennedy. This is not the time and place.

But I'm a left-of-center person and I've never gotten over the Chappaquiddick incident either. It's a pretty big deal to me. I am glad that Kennedy was able to move forward and do some good with his life, and that's what I'm trying to remember now during the days right after his death, but you can't rationalize away the extreme negligence he showed that night with 'hey, everyone makes mistakes.' Nothing I've read from posters I respect a great, great deal like DjTj and Baculus has changed my opinion on that.

Well, I think there's two different issues here. One is trying to rationalize away Chappaquiddick, which depends on everyone's own personal perspective. The second issue is looking at Kennedy's accomplishments on their own, without Chappaquiddick, which I think is heavily clouded by political persuasion.

I have tried to poke a few holes on the first issue, but I think I've said that I don't expect anyone to really forgive him for what happened. On the second issue, I think there is a major partisan divide, and whether you think Kennedy did something valuable with his life depends largely on your own political views.

Someone with strong feelings about Chappaquiddick but who respects Kennedy's political views (like you) may be able to stay pretty neutral. Someone who doesn't really feel strongly about Chappaquiddick and who respects Kennedy's political views (like me) can be a little defensive about the whole thing.

Keeastman is not some partisan hack. You may disagree with her opinions (I know I usually do ), but I've never known her to be dishonest for the sake of politics. She calls it like she sees it. And I think that's what she's doing now.

I think Katie has a negative bias on both sides. She has zero tolerance for drunk driving because of her own personal experiences, and she disagreed with Kennedy's politics. It's making her come off a bit harsher than people expect, and it's eliciting a strong response from those with different opinions. There's nothing wrong with that, but I think it's clear that both personal and political views affect how we all think about Senator Kennedy's death.

[SonnySide]

Again, he was a Senator that had a "D" in front of his name. This conveniently allows the media to lionize the man, whilst ignoring or downplaying these little nuggets:

He left a young girl to die, lied about to save his own a...

According to some close to him, he even joked about the incident (murder)

He was a hate-filled partisan politician (it's not hard to find some of the terrible things he's said about those who disagree with him)

He was a liar

He was a bully

He had a sense of entitlement

He worked with the Russians to undermine Reagan (at one time, this might be referred to as "treason"...)

Came from a political family that had Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr. spied on.

If this was a guy who didn't have the right letter in front of his name (D), the media would be ripping him to shreds, or at the least, damning him with faint praise, ala Richard Nixon (who by the way, was a much better human being than Kennedy could have ever hoped to be).

So personally, I don't shed a tear at his passing, nor do I fault those who wish to set the record straight about this not so great man who happens to be the greatest argument for Congressional term-limits who ever served...