Senator Kennedy's Death: What It Means to You

[Special K]

Sen. Kennedy was certainly controversial and was a lightning rod/target for conservatives. However, when an icon (or any political figure) on the left or right passes away, it is time to put aside the differences for a few days. It should be a time for prayers and thoughts for the families of those who are affected the most.

Hey BB, thanks for your thoughts. I will say it's something I kind of struggled with when thinking of starting this thread. Guess I just didn't want to damper the original thread with my personal thoughts about Kennedy when there were people trying to show their respect, so I thought I'd take it somewhere else...

I would like to add, however, that while I'd normally agree with you, something about Mary Jo's death has always just left such a bitter taste in my mouth (even though I wasn't alive when it happened, when I learned that about him it has really tainted my outlook on his entire life and works). Regardless, it's this, not his political affiliation that sours my view of him (I may not agree with someone in politics, but that really has no bearing with how I think they are as a person), but it's this whole Chappaquiddick incident. I don't know why exactly, but stuff like that just really, really gets under my skin. Not so much his political affiliation...

But, that's kind of why I started this thread. I know it's pretty borderline (some would say I've definitely stepped over the line with this ) as far as class goes, lol, but I kind of wanted to at least remain honest with my feelings about the whole situation and not put up any pretenses with where a lot of my bitterness came from.

Regardless, I do feel badly for his family members who loved him and are grieving at this time.

Katie with the win thread. I love it.

I figured I would get a lot more hammered for starting this thread actually. Maybe even a visit with the ban hammer, lol.

Keeastman, if you ever leave this board I think I'll just quit coming here, we may disagree on issues but I totally respect your honesty and the fact that you don't come across as a hater, something that I struggle with all to often.

FWIW, you don't come across to me as a "hater." As far as honesty, I try to keep my intentions out in front for all to see...whether it rubs people the wrong way or may sometimes cross the line or not... It's a bit odd maybe, but if someone commits a heinous act (like some may think starting a thread like this is, lol), I have a lot easier time swallowing the bitter pill if they are at least honest about it, and that's how I try to live...and post on message boards, lol.

[Special K]

This is almost like some kind of bizarro call-out thread.

Sorry, I honestly didn't mean it that way. I just didn't want to continue to talk about my feelings of the whole incident in the other thread and continue to taint it. So I figured I'd start another thread about it, and actually see what others had to say about him. Those were my intentions...not to call you out and I'm sorry about that.

[PCS]

I figured I would get a lot more hammered for starting this thread actually. Maybe even a visit with the ban hammer, lol.

Seems like some reasonable explanations for this thread to me. No problem,no ban hammer.

*

Besides. You hit back.

Carry on.

[Lombardi's_kid_brother]

Here is something else to ponder about the death of Kennedy.

It may very well be the end of the era of "Public service for the sake of public service."

Say what you will about the Kennedys (and you can say a lot), but it's hard to find one example of either they or their friends benefitting from a policy they championed. And depending on how deeply you believe in conspiracies, it's possible that two of them died for not playing ball enough. (I don't necessarily believe that to be the case, but it's something to think about).

There have always been and will always be political dynasties out there. But there is a big difference between the approach of a George HW Bush who did truly seem to be carrying a family banner into the field and the approach of a George W Bush, who got rich because of political connections and then got into politics in part to pay back those favors.

Granted, with the Kennedys, a lot of this may be an attempt to wash away the original sin of Joe Kennedy and the methods by which he acquired his wealth. But it is still something noble and almost of another era.

This used to be something that crossed parties from Teddy Roosevelt to FDR to the Tafts to Jack Kennedy to Nelson Rockefeller to Jay Rockefeller. There used to be a lot of American aristocrats who seemed to actually view politics as a way of helping people.

Part of the reason, John Edwards implosion has bothered me so much is because he was richer than King Faroux but seemed to really believe the words he spoke about poverty.

Mitt Romney seems to be in the other camp of someone using his wealth and connections to gain more wealth and connections. (And just to prove that I am not a partisan on this matter, I'm watching Biden's old seat in Delaware very closely).

[hockeysc23]

I dont think he is as good as the dems say he is or as bad as the reps say he was.

Either way the man has passed away hopefully he can rest in peace regardless of the good or bad deeds he did throughout his life.

[The Sisko]

This is almost like some kind of bizarro call-out thread. I find it odd that two people who weren't even born yet are arguing about Chappaquiddick 40 years after the fact, but why not...

Well, she's still upset over the Teapot Dome scandal so 40 years ago isn't all that far in the past for her.

Seriously as I said earlier, I'm no Kennedy fan but the guy pushed through a lot of legislation that most people, even those on the right (if they're honest with themselves) would support.

I remembered his trip to South Africa to visit Winnie Mandela and Desmond Tutu in defiance of the apartheid regime and his subsequent pushing through of the act that imposed sanctions (which Reagan, moron that he was, opposed) because I was active in anti-apartheid activities at U of MD at the time. Likewise, I always remembered him for the Americans With Disabilities Act as well. Why I don't know. However, I had no idea that he was instrumental in so much other legislation as Lombardi's Kid Brother pointed out, especially the Family Medical Leave Act.

So, if any of you who seem to hate the guy so much that you can't find at least those three pieces of legislation as something positive to say then you're either ignorant of his accomplishments or simply completely blinded by partisan politics...or both. Hate him if you will, but think about the irony of it all when you later take advantage of some of the things he brought you.

[stickyshooZ]

Don't really care, to be honest. I don't know much about the guy and don't really care to. Politicians generally don't interest me.

[Fan035]

I don't think there's another politician with the leadership skills of Ted Kennedy and that's a shame. He did so much for the common man.

[AzSkinsFan63]

Ted meet Jesus...Jesus meet Ted

[hkHog]

Ted meet Jesus...Jesus meet Ted

Lol, that's a good one!:hysterical:

[hkHog]

That's a silly statement. Without realizing it, you basically just mocked anyone who has lost a loved one. "Boo hoo, what makes you special?" Good going in completely mangling whatever point you were attempting to make.

Wow, so you mean I just mocked EVERY PERSON ON THIS PLANET!? My whole point is everyone has loved ones die. Just because Ted Kennedy lost his two brothers does not make him special or mean that he has experienced some sort of pain that others haven't gone through as the poster I was replying to had implied. Wow, you all really seem to think that simply because of the family this guy came from he was in some way intrinsically superior to the "common people." I would say he was quite the opposite, an incredibly flawed individual who did great damage to this country and the American people all in the guise of altruism. Just listen to all the things that people have been giving him credit for; education - we spend far too much money and get terrible results, medicare/medicade - bankrupting the nation and we have incredible debts thanks to these programs going forward that we can never pay back, the war on poverty - an absolute disaster that has only made the people it had purported to help worse off. He may have had good intentions but his policies were terrible and have bankrupted this country.

[SkinsNumberOne]

Part of the reason' date=' John Edwards implosion has bothered me so much is because he was richer than King Faroux but seemed to really believe the words he spoke about poverty.[/quote']

He always seemed disingenuous to me; it honestly doesn't surprise me. Many of these people, in my opinion, choose the most politically expedient way to get power they see. The question isn't, though, "will they be good moral leaders for the country" but perhaps rather the question is more simple - "will they be good leaders for the country" - and the answer to those two questions if posed may be contrasting to each other. See, we probably shouldn't care why they lead well (whether it's for some selfish motivation like a positive legacy or whatever), but only that they do. That is something that I think the American people struggle with. Unfortunately, politicians seem to go all-out trying to prove why they'll be good leaders, and that tactic seems to generally work. Then again, I felt Obama gave us a case that he would be a good leader and won, and so far I'm not too impressed.

Anyway, all that aside, to the topic at hand - I do think (as someone else pointed out) that it's very hard to know what lies in another human being's heart. We can only go by what we see and know from objective analysis of actions. I think regardless of where you sit, Kennedy didn't have a whole lot of domestic political clout to gain by his strong anti-apartheid stance and actions. There are a few observables about him that are very positive, just as it seems that there are a couple that are very negative. I do think it's naive to judge him on your biased view of his policy one way or another though. Rather judge him on things that are generally accepted in modern times, like the event from 40 years ago was "bad" but apartheid was also "very bad" etc. I think in the sum you come up with a conflicted picture - a kind of picture that is probably shared by 95-99% of our politicians.

[Lombardi's_kid_brother]

I forgot to add something.

If your parents or you were born in Asia or South America or Africa, but you live in the US now...you should probably thank Ted Kennedy. (He led efforts to change Immigration laws in 1965, which was when he proved that he might actually understand this whole Senate thing).

[Lombardi's_kid_brother]

If you notice, I'm not going too deeply into Kennedy the man. I think he was obviously a deeply flawed man as too many of us are.

I do think that he represents what a Democrat should be. And President Obama should look at him as an example of someone who was both an idealist and a pragmatist. His philosophy of government can really be found in paraphrasing his eulogy of RFK.

See wrong and try to right it

See suffering and try to heal it

See war and try to stop it.

Some days, that means slapping down President Reagan or eviscerating Robert Bork. Some days, that means talking to George Bush or working closely with Orrin Hatch.

He was not afraid to compromise, but - God bless him - he was going to fight hard for his ideals first. Maybe he would settle on splitting the difference. But then you realize that he had moved the goalposts 20 yards, before splitting the difference.

For example, I truly think national health care is inevitable. Kennedy wanted it in the Democratic Platform in 1980. He has inched us closer and closer to it ever since and we would probably have it if the Clintons did not screw up so dramatically in 1993.

Here is something to ponder. The country always seemed to have its most dramatic setbacks when Ted Kennedy was not able to be in the fight.

He could have stopped Nixon in 1972. That means no Watergate and no destruction of the faith of our political institutions. But Chappaquidick took him out of the fight.

From about 1989 to 1994, his life was out of control. Divorced. Womanizing. Boozing it up. He was useless in stopping Clarence Thomas. He could not save the Clintons on health care.

This second marriage obviously saved his life and re-invigorated his career. And just look at the legislation that came out of him since that.

It really makes me worried about how the next few years will go.

[Henry]

Interesting commentary by some right-wingers:

Bill O'Reilly

http://realclearpolitics.com/video/2009/08/27/oreilly_on_the_death_of_ted_kennedy.html

Karl Rove

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/video/2009/08/26/karl_rove_on_ted_kennedy_health_care.html

Sen. Kit Bond (R-MO)

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/video/2009/08/26/sen_kit_bond_on_bipartisan_friendship_with_sen_kennedy.html

[Rocky21]

Wow, so you mean I just mocked EVERY PERSON ON THIS PLANET!? My whole point is everyone has loved ones die. Just because Ted Kennedy lost his two brothers does not make him special or mean that he has experienced some sort of pain that others haven't gone through

Can you recognize the difference between having siblings murdered and having a grandparent die of old age?

[E-Dog Night]

For those who can't get past the Chappaquiddick thing, could you at least allow for the possibility that the man has done much good as a Senator?

Kennedy got drunk and was trying to get some, and drove off one of the most rickety, messed up bridges I've ever seen, in a thick fog. God only knows what state of mind he must have been in after driving his car off a bridge, completely wasted and injured. He totally screwed up, no doubt about it, but I can't begin to imagine what that must have been like.

By pure luck, my screw ups never resulted in the death of another human being, and if one did, I'm not famous so few would ever hear about it. And if something terrible like that did happen, I'd hope people could forgive me instead of passing a lifetime of judgement from their perch of moral superiority.

I've done some stupid stuff in my lifetime (drinking and driving being one of them), and but for the grace of God I escaped into adulthood without any major tragedies. But there are a number of incidents that could have gone terribly wrong, and I was lucky they didn't. I suspect many of us could say the same thing.

I learned my lessons. I think Kennedy did too.

Quick but important story - I know someone who, at the age of 19, ran another person over while driving drunk, resulting in another teenager's death. Today, that person is friends with the parents of the dead teenager, and they have, through their Christian faith, forgiven her. Can you imagine how difficult that must have been for them?

Can you forgive someone for something that happened 40 years ago? Is it because he's a Kennedy that you deem he isn't worthy of your forgiveness? Could you forgive a family member or cherished friend who did the same thing?

[MassSkinsFan]

At some point' date=' though, he decided to be a man of his times.

If you ever worked for minium wage, you can thank Ted Kennedy for the extra dollar in your pocket.

If you ever were out of work for a month but didn't have to worry about losing your health insurance, you can thank Ted Kennedy.

If your daughter got a scholarship to Maryland to play volleyball or soccer, thank Ted Kennedy.

If you ever had to take six weeks off from work to take care of a sick child or parent and didn't lose your job, you can thank Ted Kennedy.

If you never had to worry about getting health care for your child our your elderly mother, you can thank Ted Kennedy.

If you ever attended a Redskins game in a wheelchair and didn't have to worry about getting to your seat, you can thank Ted Kennedy.

If you voted for the first time at 18, you can thank Ted Kennedy.

If you are South African, you can pay a small thanks to Ted Kennedy for the role he played in your country's transformation.

If you ever had a nightmare where Robert Bork was on the Supreme Court, you can thank Ted Kennedy that you don't live in that reality.

The tangible contributions to this country are simply staggering.[/quote']

LKB - thanks, I was going to put together a similar list. I also want to add:

• If your family immigrated to the US from a non-European nation in the last 35 years, you can thank Ted Kennedy.
  
• If a friend or loved one serving in Iraq was ever saved from a roadside bomb by the armor in the Humvee they were riding in, you can thank Ted Kennedy and Brian Hart.
  

Kennedy actually made the transformation of which you speak during his first years in the Senate. Realizing that everyone viewed him as a privileged jerk who was riding the family name into the Senate he knew he had to hang back and suss things out, and that he had to do his homework.

He has been my Senator since I moved here in 1989, and when I have written to my elected officials to voice concerns, his office is one of the very few that has followed up. He demonstrated again and again his concern for his constituents and his ability to wrap up loose ends and at least deliver a response, even if it was not what the constituent wanted.

He also was a master at bi-partisan work. Just ask Orrin Hatch.

I would say that he went above and beyond the job performance of any other Senator during his time. I mean - just look at that list above and ask yourself if anyone who's been your Senator has done even three things with equivalent impact. Hmmm, I didn't think so...

[nuposse87]

I agreed with his politics, he ****ed up once, pretty bad...but honestly I think he did more good in his political career then anything so it negates any negative feelings I may have for him.

[Lombardi's_kid_brother]

Joe Biden may have summed it up best.

Ted Kennedy was the most liberal, most partisan Senator of the last 42 years. And yet seemingly every single Republican who ever came in contact with him, loved him. Like I said, the only one who seemed to dislike him on a personal level is Jesse Helms - who was a ****-coated **** with **** filling.

Nancy Reagan said that she and Ronald Reagan were close with him.

George W. Bush seemed to have a strong relationship with him until Kennedy thought the White House lied to him on NCLB.

John McCain apparently loved him.

Orrin Hatch appears to have been his closest friend in the world. And Orrin Hatch is a Mormon Republican who does not drink.

[MassSkinsFan]

Wow, so you mean I just mocked EVERY PERSON ON THIS PLANET!? My whole point is everyone has loved ones die. Just because Ted Kennedy lost his two brothers does not make him special or mean that he has experienced some sort of pain that others haven't gone through as the poster I was replying to had implied. Wow, you all really seem to think that simply because of the family this guy came from he was in some way intrinsically superior to the "common people." I would say he was quite the opposite, an incredibly flawed individual who did great damage to this country and the American people all in the guise of altruism. Just listen to all the things that people have been giving him credit for; education - we spend far too much money and get terrible results, medicare/medicade - bankrupting the nation and we have incredible debts thanks to these programs going forward that we can never pay back, the war on poverty - an absolute disaster that has only made the people it had purported to help worse off. He may have had good intentions but his policies were terrible and have bankrupted this country.

Let's see:

• His oldest sister was institutionalized after a failed lobotomy (ordered by their father) when he was 9
  
• His oldest brother (and his idol at the time) was killed in WWII when he was 12
  
• Another sister died in a plane crash when he was 16
  
• His brother JFK was assassinated when he was 31
  
• He nearly died in a plane crash that broke his back when he was 32
  
• His brother RFK was assissinated when he was 36
  
• His son lost a leg to cancer when he was 41
  
• His nephew (and remember he was the surrogate father to JFK and RFK's kids) died of a drug overdose when he was 52
  
• Another nephew died in a skiing accident when he was 65
  
• A third nephew died in a plane crash when he was 67
  
• His daughter nearly died from lung cancer when he was 69
  
• A second sister died when he was 73
  
• A third sister died two weeks ago
  

To sum up:

1. He was one of 11 siblings - 4 of them died before he turned 40 and another was institutionalized
   
2. He took a surrogate father role for his brothers' kids, and three of them died during his lifetime
   
3. He nearly lost his own two kids to cancer
   
4. He nearly lost his own life in a plane crash
   

You may think this is normal, but I don't.

His track record of experiencing a great number of tragedies and still keeping going was something that leant him some authority when he reached out to people who lost loved ones (for example families of 9/11 victims). I have never seen anyone in that position quoted as saying they found him anything less than sincere and absolutely empathetic - they always say they could tell he knew what they were going through.

[MassSkinsFan]

Like I said' date=' the only one who seemed to dislike him on a personal level is Jesse Helms - who was a ****-coated **** with **** filling.[/quote']

LMMFAO - Holy ****!!! That is hilarious!

Try saying it with a Kennedy accent a la Mayor Diamond Joe Quimby. I think the Senator would approve.

[Baculus]

I have a feeling that a lot of people simply are not familiar with Ted Kennedy's background and achievements. It's as if his whole life stopped at Chappaquiddick.

So much for Christian forgiveness, eh?

[Baculus]

For those who can't get past the Chappaquiddick thing, could you at least allow for the possibility that the man has done much good as a Senator?

For some people, it is impossible. There is no forgiveness in their heart, and no matter what, they despise him.

[Lombardi's_kid_brother]

Let's see:

• His oldest sister was institutionalized after a failed lobotomy (ordered by their father) when he was 9
  
• His oldest brother (and his idol at the time) was killed in WWII when he was 12
  
• Another sister died in a plane crash when he was 16
  
• His brother JFK was assassinated when he was 31
  
• He nearly died in a plane crash that broke his back when he was 32
  
• His brother RFK was assissinated when he was 36
  
• His son lost a leg to cancer when he was 41
  
• His nephew (and remember he was the surrogate father to JFK and RFK's kids) died of a drug overdose when he was 52
  
• Another nephew died in a skiing accident when he was 65
  
• A third nephew died in a plane crash when he was 67
  
• His daughter nearly died from lung cancer when he was 69
  
• A second sister died when he was 73
  
• A third sister died two weeks ago
  

To sum up:

1. He was one of 11 siblings - 4 of them died before he turned 40 and another was institutionalized
   
2. He took a surrogate father role for his brothers' kids, and three of them died during his lifetime
   
3. He nearly lost his own two kids to cancer
   
4. He nearly lost his own life in a plane crash
   

You may think this is normal, but I don't.

His track record of experiencing a great number of tragedies and still keeping going was something that leant him some authority when he reached out to people who lost loved ones (for example families of 9/11 victims). I have never seen anyone in that position quoted as saying they found him anything less than sincere and absolutely empathetic - they always say they could tell he knew what they were going through.

The Kennedy tragedies are so extensive that we forget some of them.

Everyone forgets Patrick Bouvier Kennedy, the third child of JFK and Jackie who died in 1963 at two days old.

Similarly, even Kennedy fanatics often forget about Teddy's plane crash.

We also never really talk about the 7 years that Old Man Joe Kennedy spent in a wheelchair, practically speechlees following a stroke - probably because he was such a ****.

I'm not excusing anything, of course, but in 1969, Ted had just buried his third brother - leaving him as the patriarch in waiting of the family. He had lost all of them before they turned 44. In the prior 6 years, he had seen his Colossus of a father became wheelchair-bound in speechless. He had seen a two-day old nephew die. He had seen his oldest living brother's head blown off in public. He had nearly died in a plane crash. He had seen his last brother die at the hand of an assassin. Oh - and just for kicks - one of his sisters went through a tabloid divorce in the middle of all this.

That's a rough decade. The good news is, he still had a homicide, two children with cancer - including one losing a leg, a few more public deaths, a rape trial, a nasty divorce, and some alcoholism to look forward to.

Speaking of bad years, how did Jackie Kennedy survive 1963 with any sanity left?