Zguy28 Posted May 6, 2009 Share Posted May 6, 2009 USAToday Judge: Teacher violated kids' rights by calling creationism 'nonsense' http://www.usatoday.com/news/religion/2009-05-06-creationism-teacher_N.htm?csp=34 By Gillian Flaccus, Associated Press Writer SANTA ANA, Calif. — A federal judge ruled that a public high school history teacher violated the First Amendment when he called creationism "superstitious nonsense" during a classroom lecture. U.S. District Judge James Selna ruled Friday in a lawsuit student Chad Farnan filed in 2007, alleging that teacher James Corbett violated the establishment clause of the First Amendment by making repeated comments in class that were hostile to Christian beliefs. The lawsuit cited more than 20 statements made by Corbett during one day of class, which Farnan recorded, to support allegations of a broader teaching method that "favors irreligion over religion" and made Christian students feel uncomfortable. During the course of the litigation, the judge found that most of the statements cited in the court papers did not violate the First Amendment because they did not refer directly to religion or were appropriate in the context of the classroom lecture. But Selna ruled Friday that one comment, where Corbett referred to creationism as "religious, superstitious nonsense," did violate Farnan's constitutional rights. Full article at link Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Burgold Posted May 6, 2009 Share Posted May 6, 2009 ...and Now the teacher gets to sue the kid's family for violating his free speech rights. And the circle goes on. What an utterly ridiculous thing. Dumb teacher. Dumb kid. Dumb parents. Dumb judge. Frankly, stating your opinion about a theory be it religious or scientific isn't supressing his ability to worship or believe. It's probable that this specific teacher went overboard in this specific case... but as a precedent... Yikes! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Madison Redskin Posted May 6, 2009 Share Posted May 6, 2009 I don't know whether the judge got it right, but the teacher has no business telling students that creationism is superstitious nonsense. And I think creationism is superstitious nonsense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zguy28 Posted May 6, 2009 Author Share Posted May 6, 2009 ...and Now the teacher gets to sue the kid's family for violating his free speech rights. And the circle goes on.What an utterly ridiculous thing. Dumb teacher. Dumb kid. Dumb parents. Dumb judge. Frankly, stating your opinion about a theory be it religious or scientific isn't supressing his ability to worship or believe. It's probable that this specific teacher went overboard in this specific case... but as a precedent... Yikes! Hey Burg, make sure you get a new keyboard. I think I saw pieces and keys flying off of it as you were beating on it just now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheGoodBits Posted May 6, 2009 Share Posted May 6, 2009 Oh boy here we go again... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#98QBKiller Posted May 6, 2009 Share Posted May 6, 2009 I don't know whether the judge got it right, but the teacher has no business telling students that creationism is superstitious nonsense. And I think creationism is superstitious nonsense. +1 I agree with the teacher but he had no business telling students that in the classroom. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Burgold Posted May 6, 2009 Share Posted May 6, 2009 ????????? Really, did I seem angry? I have to work on my tone. The blurb made me feel a bit fatigued, cynical, and sour... but there was no rage. I mean really if I tell you that I am Jewish and do not believe that Jesus was the messiah, does that infringe on your rights? Does it supress your ability to worship? Does it cast you into an endless sea of gloom and spiritual doubt? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zguy28 Posted May 6, 2009 Author Share Posted May 6, 2009 ?????????Really, did I seem angry? I have to work on my tone. The blurb made me feel a bit fatigued, cynical, and sour... but there was no rage. I mean really if I tell you that I am Jewish and do not believe that Jesus was the messiah, does that infringe on your rights? Does it supress your ability to worship? Does it cast you into an endless sea of gloom and spiritual doubt? I was joking. Ever see that video of the German kid freaking out while playing unreal tournament? :hysterical:Seriously though, I think the Judge was addressing the man making a dogmatic statement with regards to religion from a position in which he represents the State. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Burgold Posted May 6, 2009 Share Posted May 6, 2009 Well, I agree it was an uncool and stupid thing for the teach to say. I don't know if it was particularly damaging. Also, apparently my humor radar is on the fritz again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mooka Posted May 6, 2009 Share Posted May 6, 2009 Farnan is not interested in monetary damages, said his attorney, Jennifer Monk of the Murrieta-based Christian legal group Advocates for Faith & Freedom.Instead, he plans to ask the court to prohibit Corbett from making similar comments in the future. Farnan's family would also like to see the school district offer teacher training and monitor Corbett's classroom for future violations, Monk said. Lotta fuss for this. The kid has principles. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ljs Posted May 6, 2009 Share Posted May 6, 2009 can you imagine the outrage if a teacher was promoting Christianity in the school? or if the teacher was saying those type of negative comments about evolution? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ACW Posted May 6, 2009 Share Posted May 6, 2009 I guess the kids can't handle the truth. [cats]. EDIT: LJS, the difference is, THIS was the truth; your cases wouldn't be the truth, they'd be superstitious nonsense. :munchout: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cooked Crack Posted May 6, 2009 Share Posted May 6, 2009 or if the teacher was saying those type of negative comments about evolution? The outrage would be about where the teacher got his degree. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Midnight Judges Posted May 6, 2009 Share Posted May 6, 2009 I don't know whether the judge got it right, but the teacher has no business telling students that creationism is superstitious nonsense. And I think creationism is superstitious nonsense. Agree. It's probably best to just teach the science and let the kids draw their own conclusions. But the question is inevitably going to come up when these kids are taught one thing on Sunday and something completely different on Monday. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Special K Posted May 6, 2009 Share Posted May 6, 2009 I mean really if I tell you that I am Jewish and do not believe that Jesus was the messiah, does that infringe on your rights? Does it supress your ability to worship? Does it cast you into an endless sea of gloom and spiritual doubt? I saw this story yesterday and when I read through it, I think the teacher had a history of putting down creationism, this wasn't a onetime deal. Would creating an environment continually hostile to other schools of thought change your opinion? I don't know, really, b/c I don't know the details of this case, but I think this kid would have a stronger case if continued hostility toward a type of thought was expressed in this particular classroom. Personally, I think the teachers should just teach the frickin material and save their own opinionated injections into the material, but that's me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MEANDWARF Posted May 6, 2009 Share Posted May 6, 2009 ?????????Really, did I seem angry? I have to work on my tone. The blurb made me feel a bit fatigued, cynical, and sour... but there was no rage. I mean really if I tell you that I am Jewish and do not believe that Jesus was the messiah, does that infringe on your rights? Does it supress your ability to worship? Does it cast you into an endless sea of gloom and spiritual doubt? No it just mean that your wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Burgold Posted May 6, 2009 Share Posted May 6, 2009 No it just mean that your wrong. Well, that I'm used too (people thinking I'm wrong that is) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Burgold Posted May 6, 2009 Share Posted May 6, 2009 I saw this story yesterday and when I read through it, I think the teacher had a history of putting down creationism, this wasn't a onetime deal. I still have a difficult time with this simply because it is really impossible to demand or expect perfect neutrality out of any individual for six hours a day, five days a week. Opinions need to be included in the classroom (they also need to be understood as opinions and have room for debate). More, kids are hungry and want to know what you think... and including a variety of thought and philosophy in a kid's educational diet is by and large a good thing. Now, as I said, in this particular instance it's very probable that the teacher went overboard and entered a land of uh oh. Anything taken to far into an extreme is bad. In general though, if asked an honest question a teacher ought to be able to answer honestly (although they shouldn't go out of their way to belittle other viewpoints other than the Newtonian atom) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry Posted May 6, 2009 Share Posted May 6, 2009 Wow. You mean, a Judge has ruled that creationism is a religious belief, and that teachers are prohibited from discussing it in school? 'Bout time. :halo: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry Posted May 6, 2009 Share Posted May 6, 2009 Well, that I'm used too (people thinking I'm wrong that is) Do you wonder why? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coach Williams Posted May 6, 2009 Share Posted May 6, 2009 This whole situation is a fail..... using science to disprove creationism is retarded b/c energy can not create itself....... I'm not a creationist my typical logic because I believe in evolution, dinos, big bang .etc.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Special K Posted May 6, 2009 Share Posted May 6, 2009 I still have a difficult time with this simply because it is really impossible to demand or expect perfect neutrality out of any individual for six hours a day, five days a week. Opinions need to be included in the classroom (they also need to be understood as opinions and have room for debate). More, kids are hungry and want to know what you think... and including a variety of thought and philosophy in a kid's educational diet is by and large a good thing.Now, as I said, in this particular instance it's very probable that the teacher went overboard and entered a land of uh oh. Anything taken to far into an extreme is bad. In general though, if asked an honest question a teacher ought to be able to answer honestly (although they shouldn't go out of their way to belittle other viewpoints other than the Newtonian atom) You were a professor, weren't you Burgold? I think I remember you saying something about it sometime, but then again, I could be losing my mind, lol. Anyway, I haven't been in that setting except for with coaching and some health seminars I've taught, and I see what you are saying about total neutrality. I think it would be difficult to be neutral 24/7. And you are right, there is room for opinionated discourse within the classroom, as long as it is respectful (and actually, those happen to be my favorite classes, go figure ). I agree that this is a very gray area though. I do think that in this particular situation the teacher crossed the line, but a lawsuit? It just seems like everyone is suing everyone over everything. If I felt my rights were being so infringed upon by a teacher, I'd take a formal complaint to the school board. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterMP Posted May 6, 2009 Share Posted May 6, 2009 I'd even say that this person crossed the line, and certainly, it should be made clear that this isn't acceptable. You don't influence people by ridiculing their beliefs, normally. Not neutral would be, 'I do not believe in creationism.' or even, 'Believing in creationism does not make sense to me based on the evidence.' This seemed over the top to the point that it seems as if it was meant to insult/inflame. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WARLORD1863 Posted May 6, 2009 Share Posted May 6, 2009 I still have a difficult time with this simply because it is really impossible to demand or expect perfect neutrality out of any individual for six hours a day, five days a week. Opinions need to be included in the classroom (they also need to be understood as opinions and have room for debate). More, kids are hungry and want to know what you think... and including a variety of thought and philosophy in a kid's educational diet is by and large a good thing. Just because a teacher should stay neutral doesn't mean opinions cannot still be present in the classroom. As a teacher of social studies a lot of issues get brought up. Religion, politics, social issues, the economy, etc. all get asked about on a daily basis. But you know something? It's easy as pie for me to stay neutral. Anyone with self control can stay off the soap box and remain the neutral moderator that these students NEED. However, I constantly engage the students in discussion and debate. But instead of participating in it, I DIRECT it. I ask probing questions for students to consider. If a student is so dead set on a position, whether I agree with it or not, I provide him/her with some food for thought. Perhaps some things to consider about opposite viewpoints. My objective is to help these kids learn how to think, how to collect information, then how to analyze it. I'm not just talking about research projects, but in all aspects of their daily lives. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mbws Posted May 6, 2009 Share Posted May 6, 2009 No it just mean that your wrong. ...In your opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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