Judge: Teacher violated kids' rights by calling creationism 'nonsense'

[Mickalino]

Damn I'm 4 pages late, but :munchout:

[Burgold]

I actually don't see why a history teacher needs to be opining about scientific theories in the first place. If he's teaching the historical (or current) court cases, he can share the arguments of both sides in the context of the class discussion. Beyond that, it's not a science class.

I don't quite how you reconsile this, but it makes a lot of sense to me that evolution be taught in science and creationism be taught in a history or social studies class. However, evolution being taught in social studies makes me a little queazy (too much eugenics or nazism for my taste) and creationism being taught in science makes no sense either as there's no testable hypothesis.

[MEANDWARF]

Sorry, should have reiterated my position, there.

IMO, the teacher in this case was wrong. It certainly appears (subject to revision if additional information appears later) that the teacher has an established pattern of taking opportunities to attack the Christian religion.

I was still discussing the hypothetical scenario, in which the student initiated the discussion of a matter of fact or science. I was still responding to the question of whether mockery is ever appropriate, in response to a student's assertion of some ludicrous position. (I used the example of the assertion of a Flat Earth.)

We were discussing the scenario of "But what if the student's position is nonsense?"

Larry. Are Christians the only ones that believe in Creationism? IYO

[GibbsFactor]

Well ****, I'm going to start a religion against english and math and make a killing!

[MEANDWARF]

If the student asserts in class that the Earth is flat, should the teacher not mock that assertion?

(No, I'm not asserting that this scenario accurately reflects how the subject of creationism arose in this particular class. I'm going along with the hypothetical scenario that scruffy raised, and which Dwarf was responding to.)

Due to the fact that both are technically theories(meaning Creationism and Evolution, not the sarcastic example you made up), should a teacher mock a student's opinion? If you say yes, let the book burning begin and welcome to Nazism.

I believe that the student has a right to his or her opinion and the teacher job is just to state the facts of each theory and let the student decide for themselves.

Just a FYI, I just heard that the judge threw out 19 other statements that DR Corbett(the teacher) allegedly said in his class.

[Larry]

Due to the fact that both are technically theories(meaning Creationism and Evolution, not the sarcastic example you made up), should a teacher mock a student's opinion? If you say yes, let the book burning begin and welcome to Nazism.

Yeah, you're right. Because allowing a teacher to ridicule ideas that deserve mocking is clearly the sign of the onset of Nazism.

Taking at face value your (untrue, IMO) assertion that Creationism is a scientific theory, then what's the kid's complaint? I was under the impression that he claimed that the teacher insulted his religion. (And I believe that he's correct.)

[Larry]

Larry. Are Christians the only ones that believe in Creationism? IYO

Sorry. Should I have said "Judeo-Christian based"?

[Veretax]

In other news teachers unions will now seek to ban recording devices from class rooms :/

[Larry]

In other news teachers unions will now seek to ban recording devices from class rooms :/

I must have missed something. Was a recording used?

[Springfield]

I can speak to this issue as a science teacher in a high school, though.

Each year, I teach the big bang and stellar formation in Physics. Each year, I have students ask about God (or more annoyingly, simply reject anything to do with science out of hand because they have the misguided notion that science rejects God).

I tell them that what I am presenting is the best scientific explanation of the data we have, and that it represents what and how we think happened, and that the why is beyond the scope of the class.

I'm glad that you chimed in (and it didn't include sources that I don't necessarily care about) about this subject. Being a teacher, it sounds like you teach the way this subject should be taught. You don't put your beliefs aside, but you don't make an effort to teach anything other than the facts.

I have a few teacher friends and I know how important they are to the students. High school teachers shape the lives of the students they teach.

[skinfan133]

and here we get the other side of this nonsense. people need to realize that their liberty does not entitle them to whatever rights they can conjure up in their mind.

you don't have the right to not be offended.

[WARLORD1863]

(Did want to say that based on your post, you sound like a good teacher and one that I would have enjoyed learning from. Keep it up.)

Just wanted to say I appreciate the vote of confidence.

I'm only 23, so I'm still at that young naive idealistic time of my education career. My biggest fear is to fail these kids by burning out down the road and losing my passion for teaching. But I don't think that's going to happen anytime soon.

[Burgold]

Hope not. I lasted five years as a special ed teacher (although it wasn't strictly burn out that got me) Teaching can be a hard road and it seems that there is much that can be set against you. Too many lawyers, absent parents, hostile teachers who've surrendered or are just accumulating paychecks, not to mention some kids who break your heart over and over again. Teaching is a very worthy goal.

That's probably why I came in sort of defending this guy even though what he said was mostly dumb, because I believe that being a teacher is about being human. If you gave nothing but logic and facts, you could instruct, but you wouldn't teach at least not effectively. In this instance, his humanity betrayed him, he entered the realm of "you can't" but I don't know the precedents (if he was goaded or is a fool or a jerk), but regardless passion and belief is necessary a part of reaching kids... or failing to.

[Zguy28]

I must have missed something. Was a recording used?

Yes. The kid recorded all of the statements brought before the court.

[Larry]

and here we get the other side of this nonsense. people need to realize that their liberty does not entitle them to whatever rights they can conjure up in their mind.

you don't have the right to not be offended.

But you do have the right not to have government-appointed authority figures using their government-issued soapbox for the purpose of promoting or attacking your religion.

[Larry]

Yes. The kid recorded all of the statements brought before the court.

There's a Star Trek book I like, (one of the few which I consider to be a good book), set in the Klingon Empire. This is the TV series Klingons, and one of the characteristics of their Empire is that everybody is constantly being watched by Imperial Security.

One of the expressions the Klingons use is "If you don't want it heard, don't say it."

I have no sympathy at all for someone who loudly announces something in front of a room full of people, and it gets used against him.

[techboy]

I'm glad that you chimed in (and it didn't include sources that I don't necessarily care about) about this subject.

That hurts, man.

I generally only cite sources when I am either A) making a factual point that I think would benefit from support or making a comment that reflects the opinion of another, but I either haven't processed it enough, or am too lazy to put it in my own words, or the idea is so much another's that it would be dishonest to claim it as my own.

In this case, it's all me, baby.

[techboy]

Ther

I have no sympathy at all for someone who loudly announces something in front of a room full of people, and it gets used against him.

My extensive legal training (which mostly consists of having seen hundreds of episodes of Law and Order ) tells me that the teacher had no expectation of privacy (obviously).