Is being a lawyer worth it?

[PleaseBlitz]

If you want to make tons of money and have a leaning towards business, try and get an internship at a securities wholesaler. Start at the bottom, by the time you are ready to be an outside wholeseller the market will be back and you'll be making $1 million a year to play golf and drink with FA's.

[robotfire]

And if you are considering any career (and not just law) because it pays well, you'd better have a thick enough skin that you can shrug off the fact that your enjoyment comes from your massive paycheck, and is sufficient compensation in your view for the 60+ hours you put in at the office each week for many years with people you hate.

Usually, the easy-to-get careers are the ones where you get treated like garbage. This is especially true of a career path where a lot of people want the same job. There are tons of people who want to teach, but you get paid just above the poverty line and you put in crazy hours.

The best bang for your buck is a science degree, in my opinion. I would recommend computer science, because that's what I did. Everybody should be like me, because I'm awesome. It's a tough degree to get, and most people who start it don't finish it. That's part of why it pays well. Once you get the hang of it, it's incredibly fun. I put in 40 hours a week, and I love every minute of it.

[Mr. S]

first, if you don't think you'll be excited about law school, don't do it. Take at least a year off as well, I'm glad I did.

Also, be prepared to put in the work for school, they say it's hard, and it is. However, it isn't hard because the subject matter is that tough, it's hard because it plain sucks. You are pitted against your class, no matter how friendly of a school you go to (UT is very friendly and we're still competitive, I don't wanna imagine what it's like at a low ranked school). The professors try not to stress grades, but they by practice pit you against one another. Then,e ven at a friendly school, you'll have those couple class mates that are just plain pompous pricks.

Long story short there, those first year classes are not bad, but it's that mental challenge you have to rise up for. Shoot, the classes only get harder, but law school gets easier because mentally you don't give a crap anymore.

That being said, do I like it, sure. Would I do it again, I dunno. I sure wish I had some job lined up for this coming summer. Can it be rewarding, financially and morally, yes. Have I enjoyed my classes now that I'm in my 2L year, very much so. Do I still hate finals, absolutely.

As for working, only about 1/4 of attorneys work in those big firms you hear about. Those are where you have those 60+ billable hours where you really might work 80 a week the first couple years. They pay the most though. The rest may not end up in that high stressful of a position right away, and may never even get there. I sure hope to find a job where I won't have to work more than 50-55 hours a week max.

Don't let the idea of having to work later influence your decision now. If anything, try to work in some capacity,e ven as volunteer, in a small to midsized firm and see if you can enjoy it. I've had friends say they've loved it, I've had some who said they haven't.

And also, despite all I've said, if you think you wanna do it, then go for it. You can definitely play hard while in school while working hard. I don't think I've missed any UT home games and even went to some away games in two seasons.

[HighOnHendrix]

[Rocky21]

But you have to live with the stigma of being a lawyer. Trial lawyers are right down there with used car salesman, gay escorts and realtors.

[Bliz]

Lots of good advice in this thread. I'll add from my experience:

I took 2 years off before going in and I'm glad I did. At UGA it seemed like many of the people at the top of my class had taken some time off. The ones who treated 1st year like 5th year of college were in for a surprise. The good news is it gets easier as you go along, especially if you have a job by November your 2nd year (which many people do).

The market isn't great right now. Firms are cutting back on new associate hires, which might be another reason to take a year or two off.

As with most jobs, you'll find there are parts of it you really like, and parts you hate. As far as money is concerned, if you do well in school you can expect to be making between $100 and $140k per year your first year out (depending on where and what you practice...obviously a lot less if you work for the government). The hours can suck, but the truth of the matter is whether it's business, law, medicine or something else, it's difficult to find a job where you make a ton of money working 9-5 M-F.

If at all possible, get in-state tuition wherever you want to practice, even if it means moving now so you can go to school in 2 years. Private schools are not worth the money unless the local state schools are absolute crap or you want to work for the biggest of big firms in L.A., New York, D.C., etc. (and God help you if you do). I saved over $60,000 by going to UGA instead of Emory because I knew I wanted to stay in Atlanta. Best decision I ever made. You get no advantage whatsoever with the local firms by going to Emory. My understanding is most places are very much the same.

[styx491]

Lots of good advice in this thread.

You guys are really making things easier for me.

So the common consensus I'm gathering is that if I am not as excited about it as I thought I was, I shouldn't go into it, at least right after my undergrad. I honestly think I will take some time off, since most of you guys are saying that it's a great idea and are glad you guys did it. The in-state thing is important too. I am in VA currently but wanting to move to Chicago or California to settle down, so the year off and a year in Illinois or Cali will establish my in-state eligibility there. I'm definitely going to intern or get a summer job at a small to mid level firm and see if the actual work is really something I would do and would enjoy (as opposed to just... assuming I know what the work will be and if I will enjoy it or not based off what I've "heard").

The insights on law schools are also great. It's very daunting right now, but I feel that is mainly because I'm just tired of school and don't want to continue and start something new right after my undergrad (which thanks to the two minors is already hitting hard).

What kind of jobs did you guys do during your time off? What do you recommend I should concentrate on during that time? It will most likely be a year and a half (I graduate next December, so 3 semesters worth of time off).

[DCSaints_fan]

Sister-in-law is a patent lawyer.

I think in order to be successful, you have to combine the traditional book smarts with being a "people-person". Which means that, with the exception of working for the government, you'll have to pull in clients. Its basically the same skillset as car salesman, except on a higher level.

Of course, there's the other stuff too, but thats the hangup that alot of people encounter. There's a bunch of people with law degrees, and lot less lawyers.

And like medicine, you have to have a very high work ethic, be willing to work 60+ hour weeks, etc.

I'm not a lawyer, but thats my take.

[Bliz]

The insights on law schools are also great. It's very daunting right now, but I feel that is mainly because I'm just tired of school and don't want to continue and start something new right after my undergrad (which thanks to the two minors is already hitting hard).

What kind of jobs did you guys do during your time off? What do you recommend I should concentrate on during that time? It will most likely be a year and a half (I graduate next December, so 3 semesters worth of time off).

I recommend you take the LSAT now, while you're still in college-mode. Your results should still be good later and it's something you can focus on.

I worked for the American Arbitration Association as a case manager, thinking it would offer me some good insight into the profession. It didn't really, but I had fun there. I also got to know a lot of partners in various states, which ultimately led me to a job summer of my 1st year (which can be hard to come by) with an attorney I frequently worked with. The downside was that I got typecast - every interview I got was for construction law, which is the type of cases I managed for AAA. It was fine for me, since I like the practice area and find it interesting and challenging. But for some that would have been a major downside.

[DeanCollins]

But you have to live with the stigma of being a lawyer. Trial lawyers are right down there with used car salesman, gay escorts and realtors.

you forgot loan officers, and some would say contractors

[hokie4redskins]

I debated between law school and grad school for a while......until I surveyed some current law students/lawyers. Students hated it. Lawyers regretted it. For the most part anyway.

Some found it rewarding (monetarily I presumed) but they were few and far between. My decision was simple.

There are too many lawyers in this world anyway. You can benefit society in many other ways.

[Chump Bailey]

I've known four folks that went to law school and absolutely hated the experience. Just get as prepared as you can for it mentally and otherwise. I hear good things about GMU's Law School.

[2Rude4MyOwnGood]

Ive been told by a few lawyers that its not all its cracked up to be. I didnt read this entire thread so this may have already been stated, but apparently to make the big bucks as a lawyer you really have to put in a ton of hours.

You can make a living working a 40hr work week, but you wont get rich unless you double that.

[RedskinzOwnU]

There is a lot of money and prestige to be gained in law. If you think being a lawyer might be something you're interested in, it's worth going to law school --- but not just any law school...

The economy is having its effect on lawyers too, but the big firms are still recruiting summer associates (who almost always receive permanent offers) every year. These offers lead to coveted positions that start at 160K/year, plus a sizable discretionary bonus. The question is: how do you maximize your chances of getting one of those offers?

The law school you go to is very important. If you go to one of the termed "top 14" law schools, your chances of getting one of these positions is very high (sometimes as high as 80 or 90%). If you go somewhere ranked between 15-30, your chances are maybe 30-40%. They go down to 10-15% if you're in 30-50, and keep droppping after that. The better the school, the deeper the firms will go into the class to recruit students. Law school grades, as you can see, are very important, but you increase your room for error when you go to top schools. You reduce the need to be in the top 10, 20, or 30% of your class, or wherever the rough cutoff is for your school. If you want to stay in the DC area, go to Georgetown or UVA. GW is a solid fallback, but anything else is a big risk.

How do you get into one of these schools? LSAT, LSAT, LSAT. If you can't kick ass on the LSAT and get at LEAST a 165 or 166, (but preferably high 160s or in the 170s) law school isn't worth the investment unless you know you'll be satisfied with a career in personal injury or insurance or personal tax or trusts and estates or other very unglamorous fields. A lot of people go to lower ranked law schools and end up with a lot of debt and bleak job prospects because they didn't dominate their class, it's not worth taking that risk.

Hope that helps. If you want to know more, PM me.

PS: I wouldn't get a law degree if you don't want to be a lawyer. It's not going to help you get other jobs unless you've already been practicing for a while.

[Predicto]

There is a lot of money and prestige to be gained in law. If you think being a lawyer might be something you're interested in, it's worth going to law school --- but not just any law school...

The economy is having its effect on lawyers too, but the big firms are still recruiting summer associates (who almost always receive permanent offers) every year. These offers lead to coveted positions that start at 160K/year, plus a sizable discretionary bonus. The question is: how do you maximize your chances of getting one of those offers?

The law school you go to is very important. If you go to one of the termed "top 14" law schools, your chances of getting one of these positions is very high (sometimes as high as 80 or 90%). If you go somewhere ranked between 15-30, your chances are maybe 30-40%. They go down to 10-15% if you're in 30-50, and keep droppping after that. The better the school, the deeper the firms will go into the class to recruit students. Law school grades, as you can see, are very important, but you increase your room for error when you go to top schools. You reduce the need to be in the top 10, 20, or 30% of your class, or wherever the rough cutoff is for your school. If you want to stay in the DC area, go to Georgetown or UVA. GW is a solid fallback, but anything else is a big risk.

How do you get into one of these schools? LSAT, LSAT, LSAT. If you can't kick ass on the LSAT and get at LEAST a 165 or 166, (but preferably high 160s or in the 170s) law school isn't worth the investment unless you know you'll be satisfied with a career in personal injury or insurance or personal tax or trusts and estates or other very unglamorous fields. A lot of people go to lower ranked law schools and end up with a lot of debt and bleak job prospects because they didn't dominate their class, it's not worth taking that risk.

Hope that helps. If you want to know more, PM me.

Sadly, every word of this is true. Where you go to Law School makes a huge difference for the rest of your career.

[I_Slapped_Jerry_Jones]

Sister-in-law is a patent lawyer.

I think in order to be successful, you have to combine the traditional book smarts with being a "people-person". Which means that, with the exception of working for the government, you'll have to pull in clients. Its basically the same skillset as car salesman, except on a higher level!.

Don't kid yourself on the "higher level" part. Getting a law degree and pasing the bar is not that hard/great of an accomplishment. It's more about securing capital (a.k.a loans) to go to school than anything. Hell, I'd say getting an undergrad in biology, chemistry, math, etc. is much harder than getting a law degree. Take it from an actuary!

Kid, if you have no soul and love money, being a lawyer will be the easiest thing you ever did in life to make money. If you do have a soul, then join us working stiffs.

[The Sisko]

People have mentioned the scourge of billable hours but I don't think anyone has actually explained what that means and why it's such a beyotch so here goes...

Say you go to a traditional job and you punch in at 8 and punch out at 4:30. Subtract your half hour lunch and you get credit/paid for 8 hours. Great. As an attorney you show up (hypothetically) at 8 and leave at 8. In between, you have a couple of meetings, eat lunch at your desk while you work, take some calls from prospective clients and do work for existing clients. At the end of the day you get credit for 7 billable hours even though you've been there 12 hours.

So even though you may make big dough, your per hour pay isn't as high as the annual pay might lead you to believe. Plus if you don't make your billable hours goals, somebody is going to be breathing down your neck....even if they didn't bring in the work to give you to do in the first place.

As others have mentioned, there are other positions outside of traditional law firms though. If you can get a corporate job like that the pay isn't as high as at a law firm but the hours are generally better and it doesn't impinge on your life quite as much.

OTOH, if you're really considering nursing I'd highly recommend you talk with some nurses and job shadow them for a week or so before you take the plunge. If you stick with patient care, it's a difficult, dirty job that burns people out very quickly...if you don't screw up your back or get injured in some other way first. Truth be told, there's not really a nursing shortage in this country. Rather, there's a shortage of bedside nurses because they tend to leave bedside care as soon as they can to do other stuff.

Good luck with your decision and for the record, I'm not an attorney but I do play one on TV.

[styx491]

Thanks for clearing up the billable hours things Yusuf. I had an idea of what people meant by that but its always better to straight up know it.

My concern right now is actually getting into a law school in general, since my grades like I said aren't up to where I want them to be. I consider myself a pretty good test taker, and I've gone through the LSAT books. I think I could do reasonably well on that. Would you guys recommend getting a job and "peppering up" my resume before applying to school, in order to compensate for the lower grades?

Also, Yusuf kinda alluded to this in his post, but for all the practicing lawyers who posted on here, what is a regular workday for you guys? As in, what do you guys do during your work hours and your billable hours during the day? I'm trying to get a sense of the daily life of a lawyer, which I'm probably gonna see in an internship anyways, but there seems to be all different sorts of lawyers on here, and I'm guessing all the work is different.

[buenosdiaz]

Hey Styx,

I am actually applying to law school right now and am a nervous wreck haha

I want to be a lawyer though and not for the money or the reason most people want to be a lawyer...

i've always wanted to be a lawyer kind of derailed from it as an UG and ended up working as an analyst right now...I think the year of working after graduating UG really helped clear some stuff in my head and realize how much I wanted to be a lawyer

I think the dedication that is required and you realizing if you really want to be a lawyer can be seen in your application process

this entire summer I would leave work at 6 or 7 and go straight to the library to do practice lsat's and study

I hardly went out friday nights because I was taking practice lsat's every saturday morning during the test hours

I'm already seeing on forums how cut throat it is and how much competition there is out there...but it's what I want and I am 100% sure that the hard work that will go into my career will be worth it...

In terms of internships and being a paralegal most lawyers ive spoken to strongly advised against becoming a paralegal and that it's one of the easiest ways to get turned off from being a lawyer...

but yeah I think you know what to do and the decision doesnt sound like a tough one, in my case i've always wanted a job where I can make changes for people and a career in immigration law is what i want no matter the hard work that it will require:2cents:

edit: if you are going to apply be ready for a hell of a ride I literally can't go an hour without updating the online status of my applications and I think my mailman is close to filing a restraining order on me and my parents haha

[RedlightG20]

I thought about it. Then I asked myself "Do I want to do homework for the rest of my life?"

Hell no.

[zoony]

Yah, whoever mentioned nursing... not sure about that one.

Yes, the pay is tremendous, and hospitals are looking for nurses anywhere and everywhere. The reason? Because being a nurse is probably the toughest job there is, period. Insane hours, midnight shifts, job stress the likes of which almost no profession can measure up to... burnout is rampant.

The reason the pay is so good and nurses are so hard to find is because it takes a very, very special person to do it. If you think being a lawyer might be tough stay the hell away from nursing.

[mrcunning15]

Another way to maybe improve your grades is to consider a double major, you already have two minors you're probably a few classes short of just getting another major. That way you can boost your GPA and make yourself that much more marketable. I got a minor in business and looking back I probably should have gotten a double major because I feel general business would have been a better choice. I'm still tore with grad school b/c I want to go in a different discipline then what my UG degree was in and I just want to work and kind of find my niche but man this job market blows.

[Darth Tater]

Nope, parents, teachers, relatives, friends.

Thats what I think too, that's what a former lawyer family friend told me. Most of the current lawyers I talk to and tell that I am planning on law school usually get a look on their face like, oh... well ok! good luck! let me know if you have any questions...

Almost every lawyer I know loves practicing especially those leaving IT or medicine! Most of the successful ones I know are in IP or tax. Unlike most other jobs, you (or your proxies) can create demand while actively restricting supply without taking too much flack because of it. Of course, whenever you pick your job based on what you get paid, you are very likely to not like the job as much as other alternatives.

[Elessar78]

I have a lot of friends who are accountants for the big accounting firms (although not lawyers, their hours seem similar) and they make more $$ than me, but at the same time they work 60 hours vs my 40 hours. My point is that if you take on a part time job, start a business, work overtime, etc you can make up for that discrepancy and possibly enjoy life more.

I used to be a workaholic through college and my first years in the work force, but I didn't really enjoy life until I got an "easy" job.

Now I have a 40 hour job plus I started my own company on the side. Now I feel more control of my life because I control how much I work and not having my job dictate how many hours I spend on it.

[Darth Tater]

Law pays well, but some of that is because you work very hard and your firm will try to make every minute of your day billable. And this is often doing repetitive, detailed stuff.

The lawyers I know who make the real big bucks, do work 80+ hours a week. However, the majority I know work 40-50 hours a week and make good money. The main complaint I've ever heard is that you do need to be available putting the limits things you might want to do in your spare time.