Atheist sign joins nativity scene, tree at Washington State Capitol building**Update

[techboy]

IMO, if more folks would be focused on making today, in the here and now, a better place to live, instead of putting faith into their next life, the world would be a much, much better place.

I'm going to skip past the usual bickering and just focus in on this. N.T. Wright, Bishop of Durham, addresses that issue in Heaven Is Not Our Home. This is his intro:

There is no agreement in the church today about what happens to people when they die. Yet the New Testament is crystal clear on the matter: In a classic passage, Paul speaks of "the redemption of our bodies" (Rom. 8:23). There is no room for doubt as to what he means: God's people are promised a new type of bodily existence, the fulfillment and redemption of our present bodily life. The rest of the early Christian writings, where they address the subject, are completely in tune with this.

The traditional picture of people going to either heaven or hell as a one-stage, postmortem journey represents a serious distortion and diminution of the Christian hope. Bodily resurrection is not just one odd bit of that hope. It is the element that gives shape and meaning to the rest of the story of God's ultimate purposes. If we squeeze it to the margins, as many have done by implication, or indeed, if we leave it out altogether, as some have done quite explicitly, we don't just lose an extra feature, like buying a car that happens not to have electrically operated mirrors. We lose the central engine, which drives it and gives every other component its reason for working.

When we talk with biblical precision about the resurrection, we discover an excellent foundation for lively and creative Christian work in the present world—not, as some suppose, for an escapist or quietist piety.

and here's another relevant excerpt

The mission of the church is nothing more or less than the outworking, in the power of the Spirit, of Jesus' bodily resurrection. It is the anticipation of the time when God will fill the earth with his glory, transform the old heavens and earth into the new, and raise his children from the dead to populate and rule over the redeemed world he has made.

If that is so, mission must urgently recover from its long-term schizophrenia. The split between saving souls and doing good in the world is not a product of the Bible or the gospel, but of the cultural captivity of both. The world of space, time, and matter is where real people live, where real communities happen, where difficult decisions are made, where schools and hospitals bear witness to the "now, already" of the gospel while police and prisons bear witness to the "not yet." The world of space, time, and matter is where parliaments, city councils, neighborhood watch groups, and everything in between are set up and run for the benefit of the wider community, the community where anarchy means that bullies (economic and social as well as physical) will always win, where the weak and vulnerable will always need protecting, and where the social and political structures of society are part of the Creator's design.

And the church that is renewed by the message of Jesus' resurrection must be the church that goes to work precisely in that space, time, and matter. The church claims this world in advance as the place of God's kingdom, of Jesus' lordship, and of the Spirit's power. Councils and parliaments can and often do act wisely, though they will always need scrutiny and accountability, because they in turn may become agents of bullying and corruption.

Thus the church that takes sacred space seriously (not as a retreat from the world but as a bridgehead into it) will go straight from worshiping in the sanctuary to debating in the council chamber; to discussing matters of town planning, of harmonizing and humanizing beauty in architecture, green spaces, and road traffic schemes; and to environmental work, creative and healthy farming methods, and proper use of resources. If it is true, as I have argued, that the whole world is now God's holy land, we must not rest as long as that land is spoiled and defaced. This is not an extra to the church's mission. It is central.

The church that takes seriously the fact that Jesus is Lord of all will not just celebrate quietly every time we write the date on a letter or document, will not just set aside Sunday as far as humanly and socially possible as a celebration of God's new creation, will not just seek to order its own life in an appropriate rhythm of worship and work. Such a church will also seek to bring wisdom to the rhythms of work in offices and shops, in local government, in civic holidays, and in the shaping of public life. These things cannot be taken for granted. The enormous shifts during my lifetime, from the whole town observing Good Friday and Easter, to those great days being simply more occasions for football matches and yet more televised reruns of old movies, are indices of what happens when a society loses its roots and drifts with prevailing social currents. The reclaiming of time as God's good gift (as opposed to time as simply a commodity to be spent for one's own benefit, which often means fresh forms of slavery for others) is not an extra to the church's mission. It is central.

So, really, the Christian mandate is this world.

[Zguy28]

I'm not talking perfection. I'm talking about as much as a person can. Mother Theresa without the whole nun thing. How is that put below someone who simply says, "Ok, Jesus is the Son of God."

I think you've reduced becoming a Christian to less than what it is.

I mean, the Bible itself says that demons even recognize Jesus as the Son of God but are still cursed. :2cents:

[Jumbo]

<edit the #1 promiscuous cut-n-paste cross-bearing bandit (with love)>

To which edited material I can only respond with the words of the eternal, immortal, Belinda Carlisle---Heaven Is A Place On Earth

When the night falls down

I wait for you

And you come around

And the world's alive

With the sound of kids

On the street outside

When you walk into the room

You pull me close and we start to move

And we're spinning with the stars above

And you lift me up in a wave of love...

Ooh, baby, do you know what that's worth ?

Ooh heaven is a place on earth

They say in heaven love comes first

We'll make heaven a place on earth

Ooh heaven is a place on earth

When I feel alone

I reach for you

And you bring me home

When I'm lost at sea

I hear your voice

And it carries me

In this world we're just beginning

To understand the miracle of living

Baby I was afraid before

But I'm not afraid anymore

Ooh, baby, do you know what that's worth ?

Ooh heaven is a place on earth

They say in heaven love comes first

We'll make heaven a place on earth

Ooh heaven is a place on earth

[ljs]

wow, didn't realize this would generate so much discussion..oh wait...we are on ES...

anyway, glad you guys had something to chat about all day...I've been working hard.

At work we are no longer doing a secret santa, no one can decorate their desks...and the company can't display their Christmas tree..it's not a holiday tree..it's a Christmas tree

[Midnight Judges]

Just want to point one thing out. This is what I said:

I never said hell is all that it's about.

...and this was your response:

You have an impression that it's all about hellfire and damnation.

[Jumbo]

wow, didn't realize this would generate so much discussion..oh wait...we are on ES...

anyway, glad you guys had something to chat about all day...I've been working hard.

At work we are no longer doing a secret santa, no one can decorate their desks...and the company can't display their Christmas tree..it's not a holiday tree..it's a Christmas tree

Embrace the novelty. Quit whining.

I think you'll still find an adequate supply of "Christmas stuff-n-such" in our culture suitable for life-sustaining purposes. :cool:

Santa Rocks!

[BigMike619]

wow, didn't realize this would generate so much discussion..oh wait...we are on ES...

anyway, glad you guys had something to chat about all day...I've been working hard.

At work we are no longer doing a secret santa, no one can decorate their desks...and the company can't display their Christmas tree..it's not a holiday tree..it's a Christmas tree

know what, dont let them take away what you believe just because they want to be a bunch of ass clowns that make everything gray and drab.

you may not be able to decorate your desk but you can your car. and also talk about christmas parties you went to even if you really didnt just so you can needle them back.

[zoony]

Mel Gibson is Roman Catholic.

His church is not recognized in any way by The Roman Catholic Church.

So no, he isn't. No moreso than the FLDS is affiliated with the LDS, or Westboro is affiliated with the Baptists.

.....

[Corcaigh]

His church is not recognized in any way by The Roman Catholic Church.

So no, he isn't.

Is he still a Mary-worshiping Papist?

If yes, then close enough ...

[zoony]

Is he still a Mary-worshiping Papist?

If yes, then close enough ...

LOL- you're Irish, you've heard them all I'm sure.

[Corcaigh]

LOL- you're Irish, you've heard them all I'm sure.

Yeah, the Orangemen are pillars of the community in the North of Ireland and make Jeremiah Wright look like a wishy-washy diplomat.

[dockeryfan]

Just want to point one thing out. This is what I said:

...and this was your response:

You couldn't stay away.

If people read the posts in order, they will understand. I'll refrain from actually posting them.

[AzSkinsFan63]

wow, didn't realize this would generate so much discussion..oh wait...we are on es...

Anyway, glad you guys had something to chat about all day...i've been working hard.

At work we are no longer doing a secret santa, no one can decorate their desks...and the company can't display their christmas tree..it's not a holiday tree..it's a christmas tree

Wow! I'm suprised but NOT surprised!

[MumboSauce]

This is what ruins the dialog with matters such as these... you have Atheists that give Atheists a bad name and Christians that give Christians a bad name. This is an example...believe or don't believe what you want, but there is no need to attack another...it's all in how you deal with/present a thing. Things will fall on deaf ears when your approach is wrong, your message won't be felt either way.

[bobisimo]

If you believe in "nothing," then why do you need a sign to represent "nothing?" And why specifically during this time of year? What is the significance?

Not believing - in a world where it seems like everyone believes - can be stressful and alienating. Especially during times of the year that are more overtly religious. This is a great time to reach out to people to offer support and understanding.

A lot of people mentioned a distaste for the "attacks" in the original article.

What about this?

[ljs]

Embrace the novelty. Quit whining.

I think you'll still find an adequate supply of "Christmas stuff-n-such" in our culture suitable for life-sustaining purposes. :cool:

Santa Rocks!

Not whining at all..I'm the boss and ultimately I decided that after the fiasco last year...I would not let my dept decorate...I do believe that a couple other departments are going to attempt it. I just didn't want the headache of whiners.

However the Christmas tree "ban" was decided by Corp headquarters.

We do a fun event each week and have one day where employees can dress down. I'm the "fun Event's coordinator". In creating the December events calendar, I put a pic of Santa on Dec 25th, not "Christmas Day'. My boss asked me to change it. I did, but I'm seriously waiting for someone to get pissed that we didn't put Hannakuh (sp?) or the other holidays on there.

[jaxskinsville]

On the one hand, there are groups of Christian Extremists who won't recognize the Holidays because they've become too commercialized and, on the other hand, you have the Atheist Extremists who refuse to identify the Holidays because they are too religious.

If we could just get the two groups to "Come out from among us and be ye separate", the rest of us could kick back to a lively rendition of Handel's Messiah while playing a new Wii game.

[techboy]

Et tu, Jumbo?

Bishop Wright has been a scholarly voice on his subject for a very long time.

I knew a lot of Catholics and a few Jesuits who liked him. :laugh:

I apologize profusely for sharing some of his "scholarly voice on his subject".

[Zguy28]

His church is not recognized in any way by The Roman Catholic Church.

So no, he isn't. No moreso than the FLDS is affiliated with the LDS, or Westboro is affiliated with the Baptists.

.....

You're right. I didn't know that.

From religioustolerance.org

The group is a subset of the Catholic Traditionalist movement, and has a total membership of only a few thousand adherents. They deviate from the Roman Catholic church in some fundamental ways. They believe:

• That the office of pope in the Roman Catholic Church is currently vacant.
  
• That every pope since 1960 has been spurious.
  
• Many of the reforms of the Vatican II council (1962 to 1965) are heretical.
  
• The mass is to be conducted in Latin, not in the native language of the people.
  
• Mary is regarded as a co-redemptrix and mediatrix, sharing these powers with Jesus Christ.
  

[Jumbo]

Not whining at all..I'm the boss and ultimately I decided that after the fiasco last year...I would not let my dept decorate...I do believe that a couple other departments are going to attempt it. I just didn't want the headache of whiners.

However the Christmas tree "ban" was decided by Corp headquarters.

We do a fun event each week and have one day where employees can dress down. I'm the "fun Event's coordinator". In creating the December events calendar, I put a pic of Santa on Dec 25th, not "Christmas Day'. My boss asked me to change it. I did, but I'm seriously waiting for someone to get pissed that we didn't put Hannakuh (sp?) or the other holidays on there.

I love the title "Fun Event Cooridnator." I think that's what we should have instead of a president.

It's a bit early for me, but Merry Christmas Ij.

[Jumbo]

Et tu, Jumbo?

I apologize profusely for sharing some of his "scholarly voice on his subject".

I do appreciate his work and writing style. But if you can't screw with your buddies during the holidays, what's the point? :cool:

Besides, if I was being serious and had anything like a genuine complaint, it would only be a preference for reading more of your "voice" (which is quite scholarly for a lad) instead of all these guys I've already read, or can read easily at any time.

I know what they think, and even how they got there for the most part. But I like reading how you process it all and what form that takes afterwards in your own words--that uniquely flitered and refined view that's your view after the root inspirations.

Now that's selfish of me, but tis the season.

[NavyDave]

Since Christmas is a Federal Holiday, I looked in the mirror and asked the boss should I put up decorations and he said yes.

Good thing I don't have the Godless employees then again I wouldn't have hired them if they were.

[NavyDave]

Well its Washington St where liberals still dont have a problem with perverts sexing up Animals and had to be embarassed by O'Reilly to do something about the female version of Nambla sites where sickos were given cruising info for little girls.

[Thiebear]

Since Christmas is a Federal Holiday, I looked in the mirror and asked the boss should I put up decorations and he said yes.

Good thing I don't have the Godless employees then again I wouldn't have hired them if they were.

I'm the only person at my work that bothers to go get the xmas tree from Merrifields and decorate it, put the decorations up in the lobby.. Everyone makes the comments about how nice it looks. (AFTER) its done.

Not Godless: Zeus was cool in his day...

And for the one poster: Its not a belief in nothing. Its a belief in doing the right thing without the fear of damnation behind it.

I do the decorations for morale. I take my children to hercules i mean Christ because i'll leave it up to them to decide.

I've been know to be wrong quite often.. see my recent McCain wins 307 .

[Bang]

Since Christmas is a Federal Holiday, I looked in the mirror and asked the boss should I put up decorations and he said yes.

Good thing I don't have the Godless employees then again I wouldn't have hired them if they were.

Hatin' for Jesus!

Hallelujah!

~Barf