Just wondering. Anyone else think a rookie DL won't even hit the field for us?

[Art]

While Wynn and Daniels do certain things well, I wouldn't say they do thier job...pass rush is almost certainly part of the job of a DE. I agree they are seasoned vets that understand thier responsibility and excell at certain things...but they are little more than servicable now and hardly that. I know this is a well beaten horse..but the Skins need pass rush out of the front 4 like yesterday...and was responsible for much of the failure of the Defense as a whole.

But I also fall into that group that feels no D lineman we draft will make an immediate impact, and unfortunately..that is what we need. That has been pretty evident of defensive players taken in recent years with this club.

If we had a FA that would be a good stop gap until a drafted DE or DT could be brought along I'd be fine with that.

Not sure where you've been guy, gut it is well know, by the players and by the coaching staff, that our defensive ends are rarely allowed to simply rush the passer. That is not really part of their job. In fact, it's one of the last parts of the routine they are asked to perform. For Williams, it is more important to be able to stop the run with 7 guys than it is for his defensive ends to get a handful more sacks rushing the passer.

So he gets guys who can engage the tackle, hold the edge, diagnose the play, then move in. The Colts defense, as an example, is built around the ends pushing hard upfield with backers filling the exposed running lanes and that has hurt them against the run, but helped them against the pass. For us, we've actually had pretty productive defenses with defensive line sacks being less a priority than it is for other players/systems.

You talk to the defensive staff of this team and they'll tell you their ends do their job. Andre Carter would have had double digit sacks if he was allowed to rush the passer with more of a priority on more plays. He even told you that in the chat we did with him that there are things fans don't really see or understand when it comes to defense and even when he had no sacks, he was doing his job exactly as asked.

You may find flaw with a system that asks ends to avoid pushing too far upfield so running lanes are not exposed underneath, but, typically that has worked well for us and for Williams over the years. If we have another horrid year, we may have to ask that he reconsider that deployment, but, last year's biggest problems weren't a lack of pressure from the front, but, a lack of coverage from the back.

I hope you saw that because if you think that wasn't the case, you have deluded yourself into thinking a solution is more forthcoming than it can be. Williams defense is based on preventing the big play and being able to stop the run with seven. It couldn't do either last year because the back seven struggled in both jobs and the defensive line wore down later to make that even worse.

[dametana]

If we can get alan branch, i think he will be starting by week four.. or seeing and least half the snaps week one..

[TheLongshot]

In all honesty the roster we'll enter the season with is almost certainly got about 50 guys already here. Some changes are still possible, obviously. Springs could go, Wynn could get cut, etc. But, looking at things now, there are only a couple of spots left for someone to come in and really make roster, much less the active roster.

Yet, you still need to run guys through there because you never know. Personally, I think there are more spots that can be had than you think.

CB: If a young guy impresses, he could very well take Ade Jimoh's spot. He probably would have to win that job by being a special teams ace.

S: Williams tends to carry a lot of safeties, so 5 isn't unrealistic. Right now, Stoutmire is the weak link and is easily replaceable. Prioleau isn't a lock since he's coming off of injury

LB: As you say, 4 are locks right now and Campbell is close to one because he's a strong ST player. There is one roster spot open there, tho, since the team hasn't decided to bring back Posey. An opportunity for a young guy.

DE: Probably a good place for a young player to make his mark. Both Evans and Wynn are vulnerable.

DT: A harder place, because we are pretty deep there. But, there are opportunities. Saleve'a may be on his last legs. Montgomery hasn't proven himself yet, and he is eligible for the practice squad.

OL: There are always opportunities for young guys to back up who we have, especially since a spot opened up with Dockery leaving.

RB: Probably the one place where it would be hard to get traction, especially since we got guys on the practice squad as well.

WR: We basically have 4 locks, with Thrash redoing his deal. That leaves one open slot between Patten, Espy and anyone else who can sieze the opportunity.

QB: The 3rd spot is there for a young QB to take.

So, there are plenty of spots for young guys to make an impact. Maybe not starting positions, but there aren't many that are so good that they can't be beaten out.

Again, when talking about the draft, we shouldn't be just talking about what helps us now, but what could help us in the future. The draft doesn't often make you better immediately.

Jason

[jrockster21]

I think a lot of people assume that he's been a bust so far - including myself. However, I was thinking about that the other day, and I realized that the reason you don't hear his name very often is because he's the backup for Griffin - he hardly ever comes out of the game.

The jury is still out on Montgomery. We will find out what he's worth this year.

Why would you assume that? He was a 5th round pick...most 5th rounders need at least one year to develop. From what I read, the coaches were happy with his progress last season. Golston turned out to be the gem, but Montgomery isn't far behind I don't think. Will he ever be a superstar? Probably not, but I think he can fill in for Salave'a...

[Skinsinparadise]

As to Calvin Johnson I will refrain from the ongoing debate about drafting need versus not -- but just getting into hype he at the moment seems to be the most hyped player in the draft. One scout said he's the first player in all his years covering the draft that he can say with confidence is " a can't miss". Simms QB from Tampa was on TV yesterday and was asked about TB drafting Johnson, he salivated said he's clearly the best player in the draft. Some player I forgot who but a defender who is supposed to go high in the draft said he's by a mile the best player he's ever seen. if he drops to TB at 4 I can't see them not taking him. My guess is that there is a bidding war for the Lions #2 pick. The Lions I'd guess wouldn't want to go down much in the draft so perhaps it turns to a bidding war with TB, the Vikings and us. They like Shawn Springs so maybe we'd throw him in the deal with next years #1.

As to Landry -- I am becoming a bigger and bigger fan of drafting him. He's argubaly the most hyped defender in the draft and really the only one I notice who is given close to Calvin Johnson "can't miss" status. What I like about the reports is that apparently coverage is his strength and he rarely gets fooled by play fakes. So I think he'd offset Shawn Taylor's weaknesses well and allow Taylor to play the run more. Also seemed like our defenses second main weakness last season outside of pass rush is being exposed down the middle with our cover 2 defense by good TEs and possession receivers. I recall in an article Gregg Williams being asked about that issue and his response was something to the effect that well the guys covering the middle have to do their job. Landy apparently has the range to take care of this.

As to the d line. What worries me is that it seems like every player at least has some critics. I don't recall anyone getting reports like Landry. Gaines Adams has regained his status as the player most say we will pick. The issue with him some say is he gets bull dozed over on runs. Jammal Anderson is starting to fall down draft boards the way Branch is -- one guy on the NFL network said yesterday that some are so unimpressed with Anderson now that they are talking about him as a late first day draft pack. Carriker is looking better but some say great work outs don't always translate to the field. Branch a lot are saying is out of shape and unimpressive in drills. Okoye many are saying has big potential but is a project. Still, one of these players of course can be elite but they seem to be more of a risk.

[Guest NebraSKIN]

Who was the last Rookie DL selected in the top 10 that made an immediate impact??????

[Cdowwe]

Probably half way through the season and he would see the field. Immediate impact...Johnson might be the only one that could have an immediate impact.

[Peregrine]

How quickly you forget. Last season, we drafted this guy in the 6th round, plays DT and he actually ended up finishing in the top 20 in the NFL in DT in many categories last year. His name is Golston.

As such, if we can take a 6th round guy and turn him into a productive player in his rookie year, I see no reason a guy we take 180 picks earlier wouldnt be productive. Granted, for a DT, starting as a rookie is relatively uncommon, our main need has been DE. As such, its much more common for a drafted first round DE to start for his team.

Last year 5 DEs were taken in the first round. Every single one saw significant productive playtime with his team. The worst seasonal performance by any of them was Manny Lawson, finishing with 57 tackles and 2.5 sacks. The five averaged 5 Sacks each. Even Sean Taylor when drafted didnt start immidietely in his rookie year. Unless the safety drafted is on par with Taylor, hes less likely to see playing time than a DLinemen. If you make a mistake at the line, a man gains an extra 3 yards. If you make a mistake at safety, boom, touchdown.

[JetSkins]

branch would be a starter

[DCsportsfan53]

How quickly you forget. Last season, we drafted this guy in the 6th round, plays DT and he actually ended up finishing in the top 20 in the NFL in DT in many categories last year. His name is Golston.

As such, if we can take a 6th round guy and turn him into a productive player in his rookie year, I see no reason a guy we take 180 picks earlier wouldnt be productive. Granted, for a DT, starting as a rookie is relatively uncommon, our main need has been DE. As such, its much more common for a drafted first round DE to start for his team.

Last year 5 DEs were taken in the first round. Every single one saw significant productive playtime with his team. The worst seasonal performance by any of them was Manny Lawson, finishing with 57 tackles and 2.5 sacks. The five averaged 5 Sacks each. Even Sean Taylor when drafted didnt start immidietely in his rookie year. Unless the safety drafted is on par with Taylor, hes less likely to see playing time than a DLinemen. If you make a mistake at the line, a man gains an extra 3 yards. If you make a mistake at safety, boom, touchdown.

Well, that's the thing about Landry. While not the man beast taylor is, his best strengths are that he's an incredibly quick learner, a leader and he's superb at diagnosing plays. In many ways, he's a more complete player than ST was coming out of Miami. Landry just doesn't have the LBs frame to go along with the CB speed and agility.

[Lombardi's_kid_brother]

Not sure where you've been guy, gut it is well know, by the players and by the coaching staff, that our defensive ends are rarely allowed to simply rush the passer. That is not really part of their job. In fact, it's one of the last parts of the routine they are asked to perform. For Williams, it is more important to be able to stop the run with 7 guys than it is for his defensive ends to get a handful more sacks rushing the passer.

So he gets guys who can engage the tackle, hold the edge, diagnose the play, then move in. The Colts defense, as an example, is built around the ends pushing hard upfield with backers filling the exposed running lanes and that has hurt them against the run, but helped them against the pass. For us, we've actually had pretty productive defenses with defensive line sacks being less a priority than it is for other players/systems.

So why in God's name is Andre Carter here since he can't really do any of that? Carter's only chance of being successful is when he is allowed to use his speed against a tackle. As soon as a tackle gets his hands on Carter, it's over.

[da#1skinsfan]

Golston got time as a rookie and he was a late round pick...you never know.

I dont see why a 1st rounder wont have the same opportunity Taylor did as a rookie...he will work his way into the system over the course of a few games. Once GW sees he isnt mistake-prone, he's in.

[jamesbondman]

Why is it when someone has an injury riddled year, he is done. SEE MARK SCHLERETH for details.

Joe Salvea when healthy is an excellent run stuffer and great starter for the Skins. He just needs to be rotated and needs to stay healthy....and being rotated will help him do that. He is NOT done as so many of you seem to forecast simply based on his performance when he played injured.

[Hog Fever]

Couple of thoughts:

While I agree with some that say when you look at the roster from top to bottom there are very few places for a rookie to crack the starting line-up we have to think dynamically. Players get hurt, contracts are too big or maybe somebody steps up and through their play demands you start them.

When this conversation comes up I remember the 1984 NBA draft where Portland took Sam Bowie 2nd rather than Michael Jordan because they didn’t need a Guard at the time. Portland had Clyde Derxler who they had selected the year before. Drexler was a great player, but don’t you think they could have used MJ as well, or even instead of Clyde? I know that second guessing like this is a game best left to children but I hope you see my point.

The roster looks complete because we know these players and tend to overlook their shortcomings. If no roster spot is available then we should have won more games last year.

Certainly there are positions where we have more talented starters than others but if we find a guy who we think will have a productive pro career then we had better draft the guy and worry about how he slots in later, within reason of course.

[Morneblade]

Why is it when someone has an injury riddled year, he is done. SEE MARK SCHLERETH for details.

Joe Salvea when healthy is an excellent run stuffer and great starter for the Skins. He just needs to be rotated and needs to stay healthy....and being rotated will help him do that. He is NOT done as so many of you seem to forecast simply based on his performance when he played injured.

Joe lost his starting job after getting healthy to Golston last year, who is much better suited playing Griffs spot. That is why Joe is done.

[Dirk Diggler]

Many schools of thought here…

If you’re looking for the safest players in the draft - the ones with IMO absolutely no bust factor provided they just remain healthy, I’d say Adrian Peterson, Landry, and Carriker fit the bill. At worst, these will be very solid players wherever they land.

If you’re looking for players who are the most polished and should transition very well to the pro game immediately, then I’d look at the players above plus CJ and Patrick Willis. But of those players, the only ones you can say for sure would start over what we currently have are CJ and Landry.

Jimmy Johnson said after drafting Daryl Gardener: “Do you want to be safe and grab a solid player or do you want to gamble on a guy that could be great?” This probably applies to all the defensive lineman we’re looking at at #6. Those players are Anderson, Branch, Adams, and Okoye. I believe that defensive line will be far and away the spot we most need to upgrade over the next 13 months. There’s simply no way that Daniels, Salavea, and Wynn are all here in 2008 and there’s a good chance that none of them will be. Considering the liberal use of the franchise tag and the astronomical prices on the few defensive linemen who hit the market, we’re not going to be able to build (buy) a good line via free agency next season. But there are also things we aren’t taking into consideration. The team could be very confident that with a year of weight training, that Anthony Montgomery is ready to fill in and play the nose. That Demetric Evans is ready to step up and become a full time end. Or that we will be using Marcus Washington in a pass rush role early and often. These questions won’t be answered until September.

If the mindset is still that we’re going into each and every season trying to win it all like there’s no tomorrow, then CJ or Landry fits the bill. If we’re truly trying to build something, then we just can’t pass on yet another opportunity to grab a potentially dominant defensive lineman. I have to say though; Landry would complete the most talented defensive backfield we’ve seen in some time. If we did take him, I think GW would be back to his hair-on-fire blitz crazy days of 2004. I miss that defense.

[jrockster21]

Who was the last Rookie DL selected in the top 10 that made an immediate impact??????

Only 4 I can think of off the top of my head in the 2000's

Julius Peppers, John Henderson - 2002

Corey Simon - 2001

Richard Seymour - 2001

Simeon Rice had like 13 sacks his rookie season, and was drafted top 5 I believe

[Dirk Diggler]

Only 4 I can think of off the top of my head in the 2000's

Julius Peppers, John Henderson - 2002

Corey Simon - 2001

Richard Seymour - 2001

Simeon Rice had like 13 sacks his rookie season, and was drafted top 5 I believe

Looking at rounds 1 and 2 since 1999, here's a list of Dlineman who had a solid to very good rookie year:

Jevon Kearse, Darren Howard, Corey Simon, Shaun Ellis, Richard Seymour, Andre Carter, Shaun Rogers, Dwight Freeney, Charles Grant, Terrell Suggs, Kevin Williams, Will Smith, Vince Wilfork, J Henderson, J Peppers,

[Art]

Golston got time as a rookie and he was a late round pick...you never know.

I dont see why a 1st rounder wont have the same opportunity Taylor did as a rookie...he will work his way into the system over the course of a few games. Once GW sees he isnt mistake-prone, he's in.

Injury got him in. He would not have seen the field very much if Salave'a and Griffin weren't in and out so much. So, indeed, if we lose a starter to injury a rookie can step in.

[Art]

So why in God's name is Andre Carter here since he can't really do any of that? Carter's only chance of being successful is when he is allowed to use his speed against a tackle. As soon as a tackle gets his hands on Carter' date=' it's over.[/quote']

Actually, I don't think you're right and I know the coaching staff doesn't think you're right. Yes, Carter had some trouble adjusting to close contact at end early on last year and he did get stuck. I recall hearing someone with the team say he wasn't being paid to wrestle linemen. As the year went on he started to discover the seperation techniques he hadn't had to use and started to be quite lively in the running and passing game. Some of the early part of the year he was less impressive but you kind of expected there to be some ramp up time in getting back into that position. Don't you agree?

[Oldskool]

Only 4 I can think of off the top of my head in the 2000's

Julius Peppers, John Henderson - 2002

Corey Simon - 2001

Richard Seymour - 2001

Simeon Rice had like 13 sacks his rookie season, and was drafted top 5 I believe

Jason Taylor had 5 sacks as a rookie and 30 tackles in 13 games

Aaron Schobel had 6.5 sacks as a rookie

Derrick Burgess had 6 sacks as a rookie

That's just the ones that I can think of off the top of my head.

DT's and DE's can be very valuable as rookies, especially if the right talent is around them, and I do believe that we are only one player away from our D line being top 10 again.

Next year is when the true rebuilding/re-tooling of the lines (both sides) should start.

[jrockster21]

Looking at rounds 1 and 2 since 1999, here's a list of Dlineman who had a solid to very good rookie year:

Jevon Kearse, Darren Howard, Corey Simon, Shaun Ellis, Richard Seymour, Andre Carter, Shaun Rogers, Dwight Freeney, Charles Grant, Terrell Suggs, Kevin Williams, Will Smith, Vince Wilfork, J Henderson, J Peppers,

Can't believe I forgot Carter and Suggs...:doh: But the rest of those guys weren't top 10 picks.

Jason Taylor had 5 sacks as a rookie and 30 tackles in 13 games

Aaron Schobel had 6.5 sacks as a rookie

Derrick Burgess had 6 sacks as a rookie

Burgess and Taylor were 3rd round picks, Schobel was a 2nd rounder...the question was top 10 picks.

[mastaer]

I doubt any rookie on this defense will see much PT until the latter part of the season, Landry included. G-Dub has shown a propensity for sitting rookies (Rocky McIntosh, Carlos Rogers, etc.) for the better part of their rookie seasons. But given the choice to improve our secondary with Landry, or improve the D-line with Branch/Adams/Anderson/etc., I'm beginning to feel like the secondary would benefit more. The D-line gets its job done, generally, but isn't much to write home about. But the secondary looked like swiss cheese last season.

any secondary will look like swiss cheese w/o pressure on the QB.

[DCsportsfan53]

I have to say though; Landry would complete the most talented defensive backfield we’ve seen in some time. If we did take him, I think GW would be back to his hair-on-fire blitz crazy days of 2004. I miss that defense.

:drool:

Tell me about it. That's what has me leaning towards Landry. The versatility GW would have to work with would create some VERY interesting defenses.

[EnFoRcEr_uPu]

I'm not sure why people keep talking about trading up to get CJ. Don't get me wrong, he's amazing...but teams like Tampa or Cleveland could benefit from his play so much more, and they have MUCH more to offer to trade up than the Redskins.