Just wondering. Anyone else think a rookie DL won't even hit the field for us?

[TheLongshot]

I think it's noteworthy that Carter only played half a season in 2004 due to injuries. Between missing 8 games and playing 2005 as a LB, I think a transition period is understandable. Should it have taken him 10 games to get his groove back? Maybe not. But he got it back down the stretch and I'm inclined to believe that's the player we'll be seeing in 2007 and beyond.

Not to mention that he was probably asked to do different things at end here rather than what he was doing in SF. There is also the learning curve there.

I'm looking forward to seeing him next season.

Jason

[Lombardi's_kid_brother]

Davis was also playing somewhat out of position as he's a natural guard, but, didn't really suck. But, for the record, ANY player IN the NFL who starts year after year after year after year is a successful NFL player. The WORST starter on the WORST team is a successful NFL player. You may improve him with someone else, but, a good draft pick is a guy you pick who starts for you every year. A bad one is one you cut in three years or less. Everything else is something else.

Joey Harrington started 55 games in 4 years for the Lions. Peter Warrick was a starter for five years for the Bengals.

Hence, both were successful picks.

Got it.

You really see no difference between a top ten pick in the first round and say a third round pick like Cooley?

[boofMcboof]

Success is in the eye of the beholder. :rubeyes:

I'm sure Joey Harrington sees himself as a sucksess.

[Skinsfor4]

I think Salavea will be fine after the offseason.We should try to trade down,but Im sure you guys read what Vinny said that we will probably pick #6.If so take our highest rated D player no matter what position.

[drowland]

By the same speculation so could ANY draft pick in the history of football.

Exactly, because I don't think this DL is that good.

[Art]

Joey Harrington started 55 games in 4 years for the Lions. Peter Warrick was a starter for five years for the Bengals.

Hence' date=' both were successful picks.

Got it.

You really see no difference between a top ten pick in the first round and say a third round pick like Cooley?[/quote']

In fairness, QB is a slightly different evaluation because it typically takes them the longest in the NFL to really get a feel for whether they can play or not. As well, receiver is typically the second hardest position, in terms of development in the NFL. So, seeing one start for three or four years before the experiment with them is ended may not actually mean they are successful picks.

Due to the cap earlier picks will be given longer in general to develop than they may merit. Harrington, as an example, may have had a Shuler career if the cap space wasn't so huge for him where Shuler may have had a Harrington career if Gus Frerotte didn't look so much better .

[Art]

2001 called, they want their top DE prospect back. What he was in 2001 means nothing at the present time. And as I said early in this thread, he's not the explosive DE prospect he was his first two years in this league. That's what happens when you have back surgery. The burst is no longer there. He's the last guy off the ball. Average to good OTs had success handling him and teams ran it down his throat.

As for switching to backer, here's a little fact for ya Art, Carter only played the OLB spot 1 year in SF. That was 2005 when Nolan came in and switched the 9ers to a base 3-4. I know it's different techniques and different spots, but you're telling me Carter forgot how to play DE after switching to LB for 1 year? Kenard Lang got switched to OLB with the Browns in 05, then went back to his DE spot with Denver last year and had 6 sacks just playing as a situational rusher. If DE was Carter's natural spot, then he shouldn't have any problem going back. When you learn Spanish do you forget how to speak English?

As for drafting a rookie, I'd rather risk going for a possible all-pro DE over sticking with a guy who wouldn't start on any other defense in this divison. Worst case, he's just as good as Carter.

I'm telling you linebacker and end are two totally different positions. The training and conditioning is different. The technique is different. More importantly, how it transforms your body is different. A core strength is required to play DE. Arrington was a brute as a linebacker. Stronger than most defensive ends, but, when he played end he got swallowed up. Why? Because playing that close to a guy is a totally different vibe and requires a different fundamental type of play.

And as Carter's year wore on, either he started getting more of that, or he was simply in such good shape that as other players slowed down he maintained his level and took off. That would mean he'll always start slow and finish fast if it's the latter. Carter would start on every other team in the division....when Strahan retires at least . Cowboys don't count because he's not a 3-4 end, but, he'd probably start over Ellis at outside backer there .

[Art]

So, for the record, Warrick Holdman is a successful NFL player? OK :laugh:

Being bad at your job and not getting fired doesn't make you successful in ANY line of work.

.

Frankly, yes. Most NFL players don't even make their first roster in this league. The average career is around 3 years. Holdman has largely been a starting player on three teams in multiple systems over 8 seasons, including some before his injury early in his career where he seemed like a potential star.

Even after the injury he was a consistent, steady starter. That's a damn fine career for a fourth round pick in this league.

[Muzzah]

I think they will, our interior linemen are constantly getting hurt... I mean, Golston got play time last year and nobody even knew who he was

[mistertim]

IMO, they could all be replaced by someone in this draft. Griffin is probably the only one who'd stick.

Adam Carriker could take Daniels or Big Joe's spot on day 1.

Jammal Anderson could take Daniels or Carter's spot by week 3.

Gaines Adams could take Carter's spot before mid-season.

Branch or Okoye could take Joe's spot by mid-season.

Yup. But not Carter. Anderson is an LDE. He and Carter, IMO, would be a pretty scary duo.

[azmodeus13]

One of the things to remember is that a bigger, better interior makes Carter and Daniels that much more effective, as well as demanding more double teams for a blitzer to get by without being blocked.

One other thing - if we don't have to send more than 4-5 players to get pressure on the QB, it leaves 6-7 players back to cover when the QB throws the ball badly under pressure. Pressure also adds up to blow ups in the backfield when the hand off occurs, or strip moves on the QB when he is set to throw.

Turnovers will increase. Check out the amount of pressure the top teams had and the number of turnovers. We are near the bottom of both categories for a reason. San Diego with 61 sacks had near the top in turnovers. Turnovers gets our defense off the field and the offense back out there in great field position and wears their defense down more quickly.

Did anyone else notice how our LBs, especially when the DL was so riddled with injuries did not play downhill but sat on their heels doing the old "read and react" stuff that got Nolan into so much hot water with all of us? A good DL allows the LBs to shoot the gaps much more effectively and will string outside run plays out so that the rest of the team can get to the ball carrier.

I still am in favor of a DL in the draft, preferably a DT.

I would prefer to trade down to get one a little later and picking up extra picks.

I would prefer to have 2-4 people putting pressure on the starters to make them start to value their jobs a little more and push them into performing back to their expected levels or make way for a younger stud who will outperform them.

If we get a DE in the first round after trading back, I wouldn't be upset. I would hope for a DT with the second or third round pick after that to bolster the inside of the line.

If you are going to believe Cerrato, DL is going to be the focus. Who knows if what he said is true or a smokescreen for other teams. That also goes for what he said about picking at #6. They may already have a deal or deals in place. If they don't, maybe the rumors about Snyder and Cerrato's job might be true, because it seems, IMO, that we are sitting in a fairly nice place right about now and should be able to get a deal done to move back 4-6 spots - someone is going to want a player that has fallen to our pick. I would be particularly upset with Cerrato if someone behind us gets a trade for a team moving up to say #7, because it would, in my mind, show the inability of Cerrato to get a deal done.

For me, I would do my damnedest to move back and pick up at least another pick or two and get a DL.

[ceviker]

We Want Cj!!!!!!!!!

[drowland]

I'm telling you linebacker and end are two totally different positions. The training and conditioning is different. The technique is different. More importantly, how it transforms your body is different. A core strength is required to play DE. Arrington was a brute as a linebacker. Stronger than most defensive ends, but, when he played end he got swallowed up. Why? Because playing that close to a guy is a totally different vibe and requires a different fundamental type of play.

And as Carter's year wore on, either he started getting more of that, or he was simply in such good shape that as other players slowed down he maintained his level and took off. That would mean he'll always start slow and finish fast if it's the latter. Carter would start on every other team in the division....when Strahan retires at least . Cowboys don't count because he's not a 3-4 end, but, he'd probably start over Ellis at outside backer there .

Lavar's completely different. He never played DE until Marvin lined him up there on 3rd down ala Peter Boulware. Of course he had trouble with it. He wasn't use to playing that style and frankly he hated it. Carter played DE his whole pro career before switching to LB for 1 year. And it's not like he was a standup LB all the time. Nolan still had him at rush end on 3rd downs like he'd do with Terrell Suggs in Baltimore. And from what I've seen, Carter's never changed his conditioning for anything. That's not a problem for him. He didn't even really change weight. Kenard Lang changed his diet and training to drop 15-20 lbs to play LB for the Browns. And like I said earlier, he goes to Denver a year later and played DE the same way he always has. Carter had camp and preseason to knock the rust off, get the techniques down and get use to playing DE full time again.

Late in the season maybe Carter's overall conditioning did help him over worn down players, but as I said earlier, he was facing mostly scrubs over the final month. I'll meet you halfway on that. He's a well conditioned player with nice motor.

Would he start over Greg Ellis? Ellis was playing his first year at backer and was doing real well before he got hurt and put on IR midway through. I don't think Carter would start over him at that position. And I don't think Carter would start over Darren Howard, Trent Cole or a healthy Jevon Kearse in Philly.

[jbooma]

Maybe there is more than smoke to our interest in Landry, even with Omar back.

This is why I am glad you are back. With GW at the helm a rookie DL would not even see the field, maybe into past halfway through the season. This is his MO when dealing rookie players, he doesn't like to play them.

Which is why I am starting to feel CJ or bust

[kingdaddy]

A rookie defensive lineman isn't going to do anything drastic to help out or defense next year. I live in the Philly area and just saw a feature on Eagles 1st round pick Broderick Bunkley on Comcast Sportsnet. Bunkley was the 8th(?) overall pick last year and he had 9 tackles on the season. He barely saw the field at times. He was quoted as saying how the pro level is all about technique and not natural ability regarding size and speed (which you can get away with in college). This guy was very highly touted out of FSU and basically said his first year was all about learning. He said he has a lot to work on and hopes to be better this year. He went on to say that all the lineman in the NFL are fast and big.

Take it for what it's worth.

[drowland]

Joey Harrington started 55 games in 4 years for the Lions. Peter Warrick was a starter for five years for the Bengals.

Hence' date=' both were successful picks.

Got it.

You really see no difference between a top ten pick in the first round and say a third round pick like Cooley?[/quote']

Ryan Sims was a top 10 pick of the Chiefs in 2002, who's started over 50 games. The Chiefs cut him a couple weeks ago.

I'm sure Carl Peterson and the boys are still giving each other high-fives on that pick.

[Manasseh]

He was quoted as saying how the pro level is all about technique and not natural ability regarding size and speed (which you can get away with in college).

This is why I hope we don't draft Branch. I just think this guy has bust written all over him.

But, back to the topic, I agree that no one defensive lineman stands out this year as a sure bet to excel. That's why I hope we trade back. If there's not a guy there, regardless of position, that we feel is going to be a stud, then we might as well trade down and hope to give ourselves more chances.

Otherwise, I don't see why we wouldn't consider Landry. Outside of CJ, he to me seems to be the surest thing (well, as much as a sure thing as can be expected from a rookie). And he excels in coverage which is exactly what we need in a safety.

That doesn't mean I think safety is our biggest need. I haven't watched tape or scouted Landry versus Okoye/Anderson/Adams/Branch/Carriker, which I'm sure our front office has. But, if in the end they decide that Landry is a better prospect than all of those defensive linemen, then I hope we don't not take him just because he's not a DL.

[mistertim]

This is why I hope we don't draft Branch. I just think this guy has bust written all over him.

But, back to the topic, I agree that no one defensive lineman stands out this year as a sure bet to excel. That's why I hope we trade back. If there's not a guy there, regardless of position, that we feel is going to be a stud, then we might as well trade down and hope to give ourselves more chances.

Otherwise, I don't see why we wouldn't consider Landry. Outside of CJ, he to me seems to be the surest thing (well, as much as a sure thing as can be expected from a rookie). And he excels in coverage which is exactly what we need in a safety.

That doesn't mean I think safety is our biggest need. I haven't watched tape or scouted Landry versus Okoye/Anderson/Adams/Branch/Carriker, which I'm sure our front office has. But, if in the end they decide that Landry is a better prospect than all of those defensive linemen, then I hope we don't not take him just because he's not a DL.

Please watch some film of Anderson and get back to me on that one. Is Joe Thomas a top prospect in the draft? Almost everyone agrees so. Watch the Capital One Bowl. Anderson played LDE and RDE and he took it to Joe "the next great franchise tackle" Thomas on more than one occasion.

EDIT: I am in no way downplaying Joe Thomas. He is a great lineman and will be great in the pros. What I'm doing is pointing out that he was beaten more than once by Anderson, who some people feel is NOT a top prospect. Best DE in the toughest conference in college football and he has nowhere to go but up. That is scary. If he is there at 6 you take him, period.

Oh, he also got most of his sacks against the best teams they played. Not a bad thing.

[NavyDave]

He'll hit the field. Media and fan pressure would mount especially when there is a thought that the rookie can do better or should get some experience under fire.

The current team is older, still undersized and prone to injury and even healthy aren't going to create a "consistent" pass rush, collapse the pocket or be a disruption in the opposing running game.

Using the corners as linebackers and primary blitzers were them down and leave us open for big plays since alot of teams were figuring out some of the packages.

Heck philly learned running with their huge line will pay dividends and if we can see that the skins a small and light along the line it would be foolish for them to not pound it on the ground til there are 8 in the box

[Guest NebraSKIN]

So would it be safe to say that the odds are not good of getting an impact player?

Only 4 I can think of off the top of my head in the 2000's

Julius Peppers, John Henderson - 2002

Corey Simon - 2001

Richard Seymour - 2001

Simeon Rice had like 13 sacks his rookie season, and was drafted top 5 I believe

[illone]

Exactly, because I don't think this DL is that good.

You missed the point, but ok. So using your logic we should replace already known starters with guys who are fresh into the league, with no experience, and who don't even know the defense?

Great plan!

[Manasseh]

Please watch some film of Anderson and get back to me on that one. Is Joe Thomas a top prospect in the draft? Almost everyone agrees so. Watch the Capital One Bowl. Anderson played LDE and RDE and he took it to Joe "the next great franchise tackle" Thomas on more than one occasion.

EDIT: I am in no way downplaying Joe Thomas. He is a great lineman and will be great in the pros. What I'm doing is pointing out that he was beaten more than once by Anderson, who some people feel is NOT a top prospect. Best DE in the toughest conference in college football and he has nowhere to go but up. That is scary. If he is there at 6 you take him, period.

Oh, he also got most of his sacks against the best teams they played. Not a bad thing.

I like both Anderson and Carriker. And if we draft a DE, I prefer we get one of these two. I would just prefer we trade down if possible to do it.

And if you want to use the SEC argument, you have to remember that Landry is a four year starter. He started as a true freshmen "in the toughest conference in college football." I read somewhere the other day that he didn't give up a single touchdown pass in all four years. I have no idea how to measure this and can't find a link anywhere now though.

As I said, I'd be happy with Anderson or Carriker. But I won't be disappointed either if we draft Landry if that's who our front office feels is the best prospect.

[Tazhog]

You make some very good points. However, I'm so sick and tired of teams running the ball on us... I'd spend the entire draft on DE, DT and G/C type O lineman...

[Morneblade]

You missed the point, but ok. So using your logic we should replace already known starters with guys who are fresh into the league, with no experience, and who don't even know the defense?

Great plan!

When your "starters" suck and might not make rosters of 1/2 the NFL teams......

It's not a bad idea. Record for least sacks in the NFL all-time. Giving up about 135 ypg rushing? You wanna start that next year? :doh:

[Bossman_SKins]

thats wat sucks about this d. we badly need some dline help. we'll draft it but wont play him till the midseason