Just wondering. Anyone else think a rookie DL won't even hit the field for us?

[Art]

any secondary will look like swiss cheese w/o pressure on the QB.

That is untrue.

But, it's untrue mostly because you think sacks equals pressure and because you don't understand it's impossible to pressure without coverage and it's impossible to cover without pressure as a hand-in-hand statement, not an exclusive statement.

The Colts were 30th in sacks a year ago, yet second in pass defense. Did they not generate pressure? Or did they? We KNOW what they did in the playoffs, but talking the regular season. Or was their pass defense good because they had no run defense?

Could you say you can't get pressure if you can't stop the run? Sure. You understand there is no one element of a defense that helps the other, without the same being the case, making both required, not exclusive of each other?

[drowland]

Actually, I don't think you're right and I know the coaching staff doesn't think you're right. Yes, Carter had some trouble adjusting to close contact at end early on last year and he did get stuck. I recall hearing someone with the team say he wasn't being paid to wrestle linemen. As the year went on he started to discover the seperation techniques he hadn't had to use and started to be quite lively in the running and passing game. Some of the early part of the year he was less impressive but you kind of expected there to be some ramp up time in getting back into that position. Don't you agree?

My problem with Carter is he doesn't have the burst off the line that top rushers have. Carter's one of the last to go off the snap and it allows the tackle step out and get set. For a guy who's undersized, that's not good. That's why guys like Dwight Freeney and Will Smith have.

[dfbovey]

IMO, Salavea is an average player. He's never truely established himself as a true starter in this league for various reasons. I would think that a top ten draft pick would immediately start over an average talent like Salavea. Couple that with the injuries both Salavea and Griffin have had to deal with over the past season... Branch would see plenty of playing time, at the very least, in a rotation.

[TotalRecall]

I think if the skins draft an LT in his prime, he would ride the bench the 1st year regardless. This coaching staff seemingly waste good talent. If they wanted to start rookies, then a big DT could start. I still want CB Chris Houston; he would be way better than the corners we do have.

[Art]

My problem with Carter is he doesn't have the burst off the line that top rushers have. Carter's one of the last to go off the snap and it allows the tackle step out and get set. For a guy who's undersized, that's not good. That's why guys like Dwight Freeney and Will Smith have.

This is just a crazy statement. No, Carter doesn't have the burst of Freeney, but, then, NO one does. Carter has a GREAT burst off the line and very frequently puts tackles in a bad position because of that burst. The real weakness in Carter to this point is he has no counter move beyond that burst that is reliable yet as he still had linebacker strength, not lineman strength for most of the year last year.

[Art]

IMO, Salavea is an average player. He's never truely established himself as a true starter in this league for various reasons. I would think that a top ten draft pick would immediately start over an average talent like Salavea. Couple that with the injuries both Salavea and Griffin have had to deal with over the past season... Branch would see plenty of playing time, at the very least, in a rotation.

You saw what Salave'a established when Salave'a was out. NO one ran on us for the bulk of two years with Salave'a owning the interior. He is weakened and hurt and everyone runs on us. It's not hard to show his value, but it would be hard if you only consider his stats. Dan Wilkinson back with Marty played as well as any DT ever has played for us, but didn't have great stats.

The impact on the game was there as it is with a healthy Salave'a and if he's healthy and you ALSO have Golston in the rotation, a rookie tackle would have to go above TWO guys to get real playing time, barring injury.

[Lombardi's_kid_brother]

Actually, I don't think you're right and I know the coaching staff doesn't think you're right. Yes, Carter had some trouble adjusting to close contact at end early on last year and he did get stuck. I recall hearing someone with the team say he wasn't being paid to wrestle linemen. As the year went on he started to discover the seperation techniques he hadn't had to use and started to be quite lively in the running and passing game. Some of the early part of the year he was less impressive but you kind of expected there to be some ramp up time in getting back into that position. Don't you agree?

No, I still think Carter is playing in the wrong position.

He did play well in 3 of the last 5 games. And in those games, I thought he was abusing slower, unathletic tackles. And I think we will be able to have games like that on occasion, because he is so quick.

Still...I think he is always going to have problems in the running game. Even during what I thought were his two best games of the year in Atlanta and St. Louis, we gave up 256 and 197 on the ground.

I'm just not sure he has the ass to be the sort of run-stuffer Williams wants him to be.

To be honest, I think Carter could be a borderline all-pro if he played for a team that played on turf. In the SuperDome and in the WhateverItsCalled Dome in St. Louis, he looked like a poor man's Freeney. I'm not sure playing 8 games at FedEx helps him much.

[Dirk Diggler]

:drool:

Tell me about it. That's what has me leaning towards Landry. The versatility GW would have to work with would create some VERY interesting defenses.

He has 2 other traits that reek of a GW player: terrific blitzer and supersmart. Kid started as a freshman on a Nick Saban defense that won the BCS championship in 2003. I believe NS called him the smartest player he ever coached.

[NattyLight]

I agree wholeheartedly Art. I made a passing statement in another thread about a week ago regarding this. I don't agree with it in the slightest.

All I know is that I'm glad I'm not a scout. It's likely that out of the 5 top DL coming out, one will be a standout, two will be a bust, and the remaining will just be mediocre.

[drowland]

This is just a crazy statement. No, Carter doesn't have the burst of Freeney, but, then, NO one does. Carter has a GREAT burst off the line and very frequently puts tackles in a bad position because of that burst. The real weakness in Carter to this point is he has no counter move beyond that burst that is reliable yet as he still had linebacker strength, not lineman strength for most of the year last year.

Well I sure as heck didn't see it. He was always the last one off the ball, which is an advantage for the OT. That's why average to above average tackles were able to handle him pretty well. I like his motor and he'll get his share of effort sacks, but he's not a double digit sack player. The 12 sack season he had is long in the past and any 49er fan will tell you it was because Julian Peterson was lined up behind him. That and the back problems he had have taken that quick burst away.

[Art]

No' date=' I still think Carter is playing in the wrong position.

He did play well in 3 of the last 5 games. And in those games, I thought he was abusing slower, unathletic tackles. And I think we will be able to have games like that on occasion, because he is so quick.

Still...I think a 265-pound DE is always going to have problems in the running game. Even during what I thought were his two best games of the year in Atlanta and St. Louis, we gave up 256 and 197 on the ground.

I'm just not sure he has the ass to be the sort of run-stuffer Williams wants him to be.[/quote']

You think a natural defensive end forced to play outside linebacker is playing the wrong position by playing defensive end? You have seen the league trend toward basketball built defensive ends, haven't you? Chicago was a good run defense last year. How big were their ends? Jacksonville was good. How big is McCray? Miami was good. How big is Taylor? Maybe we're running the wrong system as the 3-4 seems to produce the best run defenses, but, we're certainly using Carter as his abilities suggest he should be used.

[DCsportsfan53]

That is untrue.

But, it's untrue mostly because you think sacks equals pressure and because you don't understand it's impossible to pressure without coverage and it's impossible to cover without pressure as a hand-in-hand statement, not an exclusive statement.

The Colts were 30th in sacks a year ago, yet second in pass defense. Did they not generate pressure? Or did they? We KNOW what they did in the playoffs, but talking the regular season. Or was their pass defense good because they had no run defense?

Could you say you can't get pressure if you can't stop the run? Sure. You understand there is no one element of a defense that helps the other, without the same being the case, making both required, not exclusive of each other?

I gotta agree. When you can't cover a 3 step drop curl or slant the entire year, it's going to be really hard to get pressure on the QB. They both help each other. The secondary couldn't hold up for even 2 seconds last year, how're you supposed to get pressure under those circumstances?

[flexxskins]

Art,

I happen to agree with your original quote and asked this very same question myself some time ago... (although, not so elequently and detailed.)

I haven't been able to read every single page in this thread so maybe you already answered this, but I was wondering what you thought we should do with our #6 pick?

[dfbovey]

You saw what Salave'a established when Salave'a was out. NO one ran on us for the bulk of two years with Salave'a owning the interior. He is weakened and hurt and everyone runs on us. It's not hard to show his value, but it would be hard if you only consider his stats. Dan Wilkinson back with Marty played as well as any DT ever has played for us, but didn't have great stats.

The impact on the game was there as it is with a healthy Salave'a and if he's healthy and you ALSO have Golston in the rotation, a rookie tackle would have to go above TWO guys to get real playing time, barring injury.

I don't really care about stats when it comes to defensive tackles. I look at the performance of the LBs behind them and whether they collapse the pocket and make it difficult for the QB to step up. Last year, it didn't happen. Teams ran and passed at will.

We didn't stop the run, we didn't sack the quarterback or ever get pressure most of the time. No turnovers... and I attribute most of that to the play of the defensive line. (With the exception of Rogers' drops.

Injuries had a part in it, but that's to be expected when the line is as old as ours. At some point we need to get younger athletes in there to build something for the long term.

[HoyaSkins28]

Probably 6 or 7 games in. Just like Taylor and Rogers.

rogers played alot even before he started and taylor started after 3 weeks

[HoyaSkins28]

i still stand by the trade down, get landry in the first and anthony spencer in the second

[HateYanksDukeCowboys]

So I remain in the camp of wanting to take a defensive lineman with our first pick. I think we need another beefy interior tackle to shore the run game up, free the ends up, free the linebackers up and allow us to play defense without bringing an 8th man in the box against the run.

You take Branch, who is the player I most covet for us, and, honestly, I can't say for sure he starts for this team. A healthy Salave'a does the dirty work necessary to make the defensive line better. No rookie will beat out Griffin. I don't know that you can say such a player would do anything but increase our depth and rotation while helping protect against injury.

If you take an end, any end, it's also very unlikely he starts. Carter is entrenched and really started to play GREAT for us down the stretch. Daniels and Wynn are seasoned, proven pros who actually do their job -- i.e. holding the line and edge against the run -- as well as any doing that job at their spot. I doubt any end we pick does anything but come in on third down for most of the year.

And I get to thinking about this because Landry likely starts the moment he hits the field, barring a holdout at the start of camp. Johnson likely starts at receiver. You take Joe Thomas if he falls and he likely starts, or, you move someone to guard to start him. While I understand why we go defensive line, I can't help but wonder if the other areas are more clearly improved by a player in this draft than would the line be for the upcoming season.

Maybe there is more than smoke to our interest in Landry, even with Omar back.

i fall victim to this line of reasoning from time to time as well. when i go down the defensive line, and evaluate each guy man for man, i find myself applauding their talent, or experience, or both. in other words, rarely do i find a weakness when i look at them man for man.

HOWEVER, when i turn the TV on and watch a game, i find myself saying, "man this defensive line stinks!!"............"why can't they get any pressure? why can't they stop the run? why are they getting blown off the ball?"

i have to believe at least ONE of them is not carrying his weight.

[Lombardi's_kid_brother]

You think a natural defensive end forced to play outside linebacker is playing the wrong position by playing defensive end? You have seen the league trend toward basketball built defensive ends, haven't you? Chicago was a good run defense last year. How big were their ends? Jacksonville was good. How big is McCray? Miami was good. How big is Taylor? Maybe we're running the wrong system as the 3-4 seems to produce the best run defenses, but, we're certainly using Carter as his abilities suggest he should be used.

You always catch me in mid-edit.

I think Carter could play DE, if he was allowed to simply turn up field - like the ends in Chicago are.

Chicago, of course, has the luxury of Harris, Johnson, and Urlacher clogging the middle, whereas, last year, the Skins had Huey, Dewey, and Louie.

And Taylor lined up everywhere short of cornerback last year.

I still think Carter is a natural OLB in a 3-4. Short of that, I think he would be much better served playing DE on turf or in a system that simply let him take the tackle up-field. If he is being consistently asked to crash down to stuff the run, he is going to have trouble.

Philip Daniels is perfect to do what Williams wants his ends to do. Carter...still a big question mark in my view.

[Lombardi's_kid_brother]

I guess my biggest issue with not taking a DL is that it seems we will be falling into the "The Scheme will save us" approach that has been the hallmark of Williams' tenure. At some point, you have to just get good athletes and let them make plays. Outside of Carter and the soon to be 30 Washington, I'm not sure how athletic our Front 7 is...even with the addition of Fletcher.

[jrockster21]

Dan Wilkinson back with Marty played as well as any DT ever has played for us, but didn't have great stats.

You are out of your mind. Wilkinson did his job while he was here, but to put him up as one of the best DTs that have ever played for us is well....lunacy.

[flexxskins]

i fall victim to this line of reasoning from time to time as well. when i go down the defensive line, and evaluate each guy man for man, i find myself applauding their talent, or experience, or both. in other words, rarely do i find a weakness when i look at them man for man.

HOWEVER, when i turn the TV on and watch a game, i find myself saying, "man this defensive line stinks!!"............"why can't they get any pressure? why can't they stop the run? why are they getting blown off the ball?"

i have to believe at least ONE of them is not carrying his weight.

Well, lets break it down and see if we are seeing the same things.

Carter is showing signs of being both a pretty decent pass rusher and stout against the run.

Griffin...well, he's a straight beast.

Golston/Salave'a seem to be where the question mark is at even who starts. And whoever starts is still surely not good enough to draw a double team.

Daniels at least holds his own against the run and seems to have catchers mitts for hands the way he bats passes down.

[Langford78]

I say trade down and get the best dl you can, hopefully Okoye/Carricker is still available. Branch didn't have many tackles and has been called lazy, don't need that at all.

Man, they really ****ed up by letting Merriman go 2 years ago, or even Ware.

X2 :applause:

[dfbovey]

Well, lets break it down and see if we are seeing the same things.

Carter is showing signs of being both a pretty decent pass rusher and stout against the run.

Griffin...well, he's a straight beast.

Golston/Salave'a seem to be where the question mark is at even who starts. And whoever starts is still surely not good enough to draw a double team.

Daniels at least holds his own against the run and seems to have catchers mitts for hands the way he bats passes down.

I think age and injury needs to be taken into account. How much longer will Daniels even be effective? Healthy? Given his age... Same with Salavea and Griffin. All of these guys are 30 or older and spent a decent amount of time injured over the past two seasons.

Are we going to continue to plug these spots with over age injury prone players when these guys lose their effectiveness? Or do we start bringing in young talent that would serve as a LONG TERM solution?

[HateYanksDukeCowboys]

I think age and injury needs to be taken into account. How much longer will Daniels even be effective? Healthy? Given his age... Same with Salavea and Griffin. All of these guys are 30 or older and spent a decent amount of time injured over the past two seasons.

Are we going to continue to plug these spots with over age injury prone players when these guys lose their effectiveness? Or do we start bringing in young talent that would serve as a LONG TERM solution?

i agree with Flexx when you break it down one by one. but i think the issue, and age may contribute to this, is that Cornelius is not a beast EVERY down. Daniels doesn't bat down passes with great regularity, and Carter spent way too much time getting pushed backwards for me to think of him as a run stopper at this point.

they have their moments.....yes. but do they bring it every play? no.

[Lombardi's_kid_brother]

Well, lets break it down and see if we are seeing the same things.

Carter is showing signs of being both a pretty decent pass rusher and stout against the run.

Griffin...well, he's a straight beast.

Golston/Salave'a seem to be where the question mark is at even who starts. And whoever starts is still surely not good enough to draw a double team.

Daniels at least holds his own against the run and seems to have catchers mitts for hands the way he bats passes down.

Griffin is a soon to be 31-year-old beast who has not played 16 games in a season since 2001.