Just wondering. Anyone else think a rookie DL won't even hit the field for us?

[drowland]

Carter did a nice job against the run and really came on as the year wore on. As I've said, he's not a Pro Bowl player, but, he is a proven, capable player at his position. Indeed, I would expect him to get another 50-plus tackles and 8-12 sacks this year as his body continues to adjust back to the end position.

He had 4 sacks and three stuffs in the last five games against some pretty good offenses. His game started to fit back with the end role after a couple years at backer. Not sure why you don't recognize that or understand he doesn't have to be a Pro Bowl player to be a valuable one.

What's he proven? That might be average? Is that what we should expect? The guy was invisable for most of the year. And then his late season "breakout" was mostly against scrub OTs. The only LT worth a damn that Carter played well against over the final 5 games was Jammal Brown (Saints). And that game appeared to be the exception to an overall pathetic season for the defense. He had a good game against a 14-yr journeyman named Wayne Gandy (Atlanta). And then he got to face backup/emergency LTs in the final two games against the Rams and Giants. Orlando Pace and Luke Petitgout were out.

So do I think a rookie DE could come in and start over Carter? I sure as heck don't think it's a stretch.

[jrockster21]

Carter did a nice job against the run and really came on as the year wore on. As I've said, he's not a Pro Bowl player, but, he is a proven, capable player at his position. Indeed, I would expect him to get another 50-plus tackles and 8-12 sacks this year as his body continues to adjust back to the end position.

He had 4 sacks and three stuffs in the last five games against some pretty good offenses. His game started to fit back with the end role after a couple years at backer. Not sure why you don't recognize that or understand he doesn't have to be a Pro Bowl player to be a valuable one.

Good against the run?? I guess...if getting pushed backwards 5 yards on running plays is "good."

[RedzoneHunter]

I'm thinking that Golston and Montgomery are going to be much improved after a year under their belts. The way Golston played as a rookie was very impressive, and I can hardly wait to see the strides he'll make this year. We're pretty solid at DT for this upcoming season, so I believe we must take a DE, either Carricker or Anderson after trading down. We gotta get another pick in the 2nd round.

Branch is overrated, after playing a weak schedule. Florida man-handled Michigan in every area. However, I do like Michigan's MLB David Harris, but that hole has already been plugged.

[Lombardi's_kid_brother]

Carter did a nice job against the run and really came on as the year wore on. As I've said, he's not a Pro Bowl player, but, he is a proven, capable player at his position. Indeed, I would expect him to get another 50-plus tackles and 8-12 sacks this year as his body continues to adjust back to the end position.

He had 4 sacks and three stuffs in the last five games against some pretty good offenses. His game started to fit back with the end role after a couple years at backer. Not sure why you don't recognize that or understand he doesn't have to be a Pro Bowl player to be a valuable one.

I don't think every player should be an all-pro. In fact, I believe I said that Kim Von Oelhoffen sounds like the ideal Gregg Williams Defensive End at some point in our discussions. And I also have said that Daniels has been a very good end here.

Besides that, I am on record on some thread explaining how Dwight Freeney might be the most over-rated DE in history. I went through two seasons worth of game logs to show his stats on turf and on grass. And on grass, he was dreadful while on turf he put up gawdy numbers in a handful of games.

And I think Carter is a poor man's Freeney.

[illone]

Branch is overrated, after playing a weak schedule. USC man-handled Michigan in every area. However, I do like Michigan's MLB David Harris, but that hole has already been plugged.

I corrected your post.

[Morneblade]

What's he proven? That might be average? Is that what we should expect? The guy was invisable for most of the year. And then his late season "breakout" was mostly against scrub OTs. The only LT worth a damn that Carter played well against over the final 5 games was Jammal Brown (Saints). And that game appeared to be the exception to an overall pathetic season for the defense. He had a good game against a 14-yr journeyman named Wayne Gandy (Atlanta). And then he got to face backup/emergency LTs in the final two games against the Rams and Giants. Orlando Pace and Luke Petitgout were out.

So do I think a rookie DE could come in and start over Carter? I sure as heck don't think it's a stretch.

Why are we talking Carter, he's the best DE we have. Now, if we cant draft a DE that can start over Daneils, we're idiots because he is much worse than Carter at this point.

[Art]

What's he proven? That might be average? Is that what we should expect? The guy was invisable for most of the year. And then his late season "breakout" was mostly against scrub OTs. The only LT worth a damn that Carter played well against over the final 5 games was Jammal Brown (Saints). And that game appeared to be the exception to an overall pathetic season for the defense. He had a good game against a 14-yr journeyman named Wayne Gandy (Atlanta). And then he got to face backup/emergency LTs in the final two games against the Rams and Giants. Orlando Pace and Luke Petitgout were out.

So do I think a rookie DE could come in and start over Carter? I sure as heck don't think it's a stretch.

I don't know what to do to help you here. Carter was, I believe, a better prospect at defensive end than any defensive end in this draft when he came out. He came in, played as a starter at two different positions. He came back to his natural spot and took time to adjust to the closer combat. It's no small thing to go from linebacker to end, OR vice versa. You learn different techniques and play differently at each spot. As the year wore on he played better and better as his core strength adjusted to the combat of close line of scrimmage play again. I'm sorry you seem to think he should have stepped in the moment he hit the field as the perfect defensive end after two years of not playing the position.

I think objectively you judge how he played based on how he progressed back into the role and that leaves you with the reasonably sound projection he'll play better the whole of the year than last year because of it. But, of course, you would prefer a prospect that likely wasn't as highly thought of as Carter when Carter came out, who's never played a down and think he'll start. One of us is making a judgement based on observed fact.

You would prefer to run the ship on a wing and prayer that the draft is. Carter is the very definition of a successful draft pick in this league. Which means he is unlike the VAST majority of drafted players. No. No rookie is going to beat him out.

[illone]

Some of you guys sound like little girls. After reading through most of this thread I can see that most of you want to draft a Dlinemen in the 1st round simply because we haven't in 10 years.

How silly is that?

Keep trying to convince me that drafting a risky DT/DE in the first round in THIS years draft is better for the team than working a trade where we acquire a 2nd and 3rd round draft pick, and are able to address Guard, DT, and even safety.

There are a pile of mid-level studs with just as much potential as Branch or Okoye, and who played in a more rigorous conference last season.... Justin Harrell, Marcus Thomas, Chase Pittman, Turk McBride.... the list goes on....

[drowland]

Why are we talking Carter, he's the best DE we have. Now, if we cant draft a DE that can start over Daneils, we're idiots because he is much worse than Carter at this point.

IMO, they could all be replaced by someone in this draft. Griffin is probably the only one who'd stick.

Adam Carriker could take Daniels or Big Joe's spot on day 1.

Jammal Anderson could take Daniels or Carter's spot by week 3.

Gaines Adams could take Carter's spot before mid-season.

Branch or Okoye could take Joe's spot by mid-season.

[illone]

IMO, they could all be replaced by someone in this draft. Griffin is probably the only one who'd stick.

Adam Carriker could take Daniels or Big Joe's spot on day 1.

Jammal Anderson could take Daniels or Carter's spot by week 3.

Gaines Adams could take Carter's spot before mid-season.

Branch or Okoye could take Joe's spot by mid-season.

By the same speculation so could ANY draft pick in the history of football.

[dametana]

cj or landry will paly instantly..

[Lombardi's_kid_brother]

You would prefer to run the ship on a wing and prayer that the draft is. Carter is the very definition of a successful draft pick in this league. Which means he is unlike the VAST majority of drafted players. No. No rookie is going to beat him out.

If he is the very definition of successful, why didn't the 49ers keep him?

If Carter was a second round pick, you could easily argue that he has had a very good career. Not a great career, because he has never really put up exceptional numbers. But a very good career.

He was taken seventh overall. At that spot in the draft, you want multiple all-pro appearances. Richard Seymour was taken one spot ahead of Carter. He's been to five Pro Bowls. If Carter is the very definition of successful, what is Seymour?

First rounders need to make Pro Bowls - or at least put up Pro Bowl-type numbers, since the Pro Bowl itself is a pretty arbitrary award. 2nd and 3rd rounders should eventually be quality starters (and you could put Carter in that class, I guess). After the third round is where you find depth and special teamers.

Out of curiosity, Leonard Davis when five spots ahead of Carter. He was a conistent starter for Arizona...but he kinda sucked at it. He is the very definition of a successful draft pick as well?

(By the way, has anyone ever noticed how loaded the 2001 draft was? Holy Moses!)

[Art]

If he is the very definition of successful' date=' why didn't the 49ers keep him?

If Carter was a second round pick, you could easily argue that he has had a very good career. Not a great career, because he has never really put up exceptional numbers. But a very good career.

He was taken seventh overall. At that spot in the draft, you want multiple all-pro appearances. Richard Seymour was taken one spot ahead of Carter. He's been to five Pro Bowls. If Carter is the very definition of successful, what is Seymour?

First rounders need to make Pro Bowls - or at least put up Pro Bowl-type numbers, since the Pro Bowl itself is a pretty arbitrary award. 2nd and 3rd rounders should eventually be quality starters (and you could put Carter in that class, I guess). After the third round is where you find depth and special teamers.

Out of curiosity, Leonard Davis when five spots ahead of Carter. He was a conistent starter for Arizona...but he kinda sucked at it. He is the very definition of a successful draft pick as well?

(By the way, has anyone ever noticed how loaded the 2001 draft was? Holy Moses!)[/quote']

His contract with the Niners ran out. He was playing a position he was not suited to play for a new staff. His value to them was less. He is not a 3-4 linebacker. He's a 4-3 end. That's the only way you get value from him. So, they're right not to give him a lot to return to a position he was below average in and the one he'd have to continue playing there.

Seymore has been a GREAT pick.

Davis was also playing somewhat out of position as he's a natural guard, but, didn't really suck. But, for the record, ANY player IN the NFL who starts year after year after year after year is a successful NFL player. The WORST starter on the WORST team is a successful NFL player. You may improve him with someone else, but, a good draft pick is a guy you pick who starts for you every year. A bad one is one you cut in three years or less. Everything else is something else.

[illone]

(By the way' date=' has anyone ever noticed how loaded the 2001 draft was? Holy Moses!)[/quote']

of course it was... Very easy to say that after the fact... We might very well be saying the same thing about this draft... That's the thing about hindsight; always perfect 20/20.

[illone]

a good draft pick is a guy you pick who starts for you every year.

This is where most of you guys are crossing hairs.

[drowland]

I don't know what to do to help you here. Carter was, I believe, a better prospect at defensive end than any defensive end in this draft when he came out. He came in, played as a starter at two different positions. He came back to his natural spot and took time to adjust to the closer combat. It's no small thing to go from linebacker to end, OR vice versa. You learn different techniques and play differently at each spot. As the year wore on he played better and better as his core strength adjusted to the combat of close line of scrimmage play again. I'm sorry you seem to think he should have stepped in the moment he hit the field as the perfect defensive end after two years of not playing the position.

I think objectively you judge how he played based on how he progressed back into the role and that leaves you with the reasonably sound projection he'll play better the whole of the year than last year because of it. But, of course, you would prefer a prospect that likely wasn't as highly thought of as Carter when Carter came out, who's never played a down and think he'll start. One of us is making a judgement based on observed fact.

You would prefer to run the ship on a wing and prayer that the draft is. Carter is the very definition of a successful draft pick in this league. Which means he is unlike the VAST majority of drafted players. No. No rookie is going to beat him out.

2001 called, they want their top DE prospect back. What he was in 2001 means nothing at the present time. And as I said early in this thread, he's not the explosive DE prospect he was his first two years in this league. That's what happens when you have back surgery. The burst is no longer there. He's the last guy off the ball. Average to good OTs had success handling him and teams ran it down his throat.

As for switching to backer, here's a little fact for ya Art, Carter only played the OLB spot 1 year in SF. That was 2005 when Nolan came in and switched the 9ers to a base 3-4. I know it's different techniques and different spots, but you're telling me Carter forgot how to play DE after switching to LB for 1 year? Kenard Lang got switched to OLB with the Browns in 05, then went back to his DE spot with Denver last year and had 6 sacks just playing as a situational rusher. If DE was Carter's natural spot, then he shouldn't have any problem going back. When you learn Spanish do you forget how to speak English?

As for drafting a rookie, I'd rather risk going for a possible all-pro DE over sticking with a guy who wouldn't start on any other defense in this divison. Worst case, he's just as good as Carter.

[GhostofAlvinWalton]

But, for the record, ANY player IN the NFL who starts year after year after year after year is a successful NFL player. The WORST starter on the WORST team is a successful NFL player.

So, for the record, Warrick Holdman is a successful NFL player? OK :laugh:

Being bad at your job and not getting fired doesn't make you successful in ANY line of work.

.

[Dirk Diggler]

As for switching to backer, here's a little fact for ya Art, Carter only played the OLB spot 1 year in SF. That was 2005 when Nolan came in and switched the 9ers to a base 3-4. I know it's different techniques and different spot, but you're telling me Carter forgot how to play DE after switching to LB for 1 year? Kenard Lang got switched to OLB with the Browns in 05, then went back to his DE spot with Denver last year and had 6 sacks playing in their rotation. If DE was Carter's natural spot, then he shouldn't have any problem going back. When you learn Spanish do you forget English?

I think it's noteworthy that Carter only played half a season in 2004 due to injuries. Between missing 8 games and playing 2005 as a LB, I think a transition period is understandable. Should it have taken him 10 games to get his groove back? Maybe not. But he got it back down the stretch and I'm inclined to believe that's the player we'll be seeing in 2007 and beyond.

[DCsportsfan53]

I think it's noteworthy that Carter only played half a season in 2004 due to injuries. Between missing 8 games and playing 2005 as a LB, I think a transition period is understandable. Should it have taken him 10 games to get his groove back? Maybe not. But he got it back down the stretch and I'm inclined to believe that's the player we'll be seeing in 2007 and beyond.

I'd definitely agree with that. I have confidence in Carter. Even during the season, when I was down on AA, I always thought the transition factor was hindering Carter. He'll be fine.

[drowland]

I think it's noteworthy that Carter only played half a season in 2004 due to injuries. Between missing 8 games and playing 2005 as a LB, I think a transition period is understandable. Should it have taken him 10 games to get his groove back? Maybe not. But he got it back down the stretch and I'm inclined to believe that's the player we'll be seeing in 2007 and beyond.

Yeah, as long as he's facing scrubs, he'll be alright.

[Jethrodsp]

The only player in the top 5 that for sure starts for Gibbs' crew from day one is calvin johnson. Joe Thomas could probably start but I dont think Gibbs would throw him in there right away with such good chemistry on the oline.

Other than that, I still think we need a DT in the first round much more than Landry. I think Sean Taylor desperately needs a veteran starting beside him to make him the player we think he can be. If Alan Branch is slipping, good. Maybe we can trade back and still get him along with a third round pick or something. Otherwise, I think we need to trade back and target someone like Harrell from Tennessee because we can get him much later in the first round and his size would still fit the bill of what the Redskins need in the middle of our line.

[Jethrodsp]

Some of you guys sound like little girls. After reading through most of this thread I can see that most of you want to draft a Dlinemen in the 1st round simply because we haven't in 10 years.

How silly is that?

Keep trying to convince me that drafting a risky DT/DE in the first round in THIS years draft is better for the team than working a trade where we acquire a 2nd and 3rd round draft pick, and are able to address Guard, DT, and even safety.

There are a pile of mid-level studs with just as much potential as Branch or Okoye, and who played in a more rigorous conference last season.... Justin Harrell, Marcus Thomas, Chase Pittman, Turk McBride.... the list goes on....

Bingo.

[DCsportsfan53]

Some of you guys sound like little girls. After reading through most of this thread I can see that most of you want to draft a Dlinemen in the 1st round simply because we haven't in 10 years.

How silly is that?

Keep trying to convince me that drafting a risky DT/DE in the first round in THIS years draft is better for the team than working a trade where we acquire a 2nd and 3rd round draft pick, and are able to address Guard, DT, and even safety.

There are a pile of mid-level studs with just as much potential as Branch or Okoye, and who played in a more rigorous conference last season.... Justin Harrell, Marcus Thomas, Chase Pittman, Turk McBride.... the list goes on....

Head of nail, meet hammer; hammer meet head of nail.

You don't take DL just because we haven't in awhile. The prospects just don't warrant it AND the guys available in the 2nd and 3rd have just as much potential. There's just so much depth, especially at DT, in this draft.

Also Art, I completely agree that Carter, as a draft prospect, was better that ANY of the DE prospects in this year's draft and I think he'll really play strong for us. This just isn't the year to go DL in round 1, the prospects are too risky up there and the later guys aren't really a talent drop off. We can still get the DL we need while filling other holes if we play our cards right. :2cents:

[illone]

Good against the run?? I guess...if getting pushed backwards 5 yards on running plays is "good."

That's Holdman's description, not Carter's.. :laugh:

[Gusthecat]

Trading away future draft picks to get another receiver just throws all logic out the dore bro, even if he's the next Jerry Rice.

For Jerry Rice I would through all logic out the window. Any day. Any widow.