Anything MMA, except thumb wrestling

[herrmag]

I'm not so sure. Toney is 41 and from what I've seen not exactly in the best shape of his life.

He may not have the lungs, speed, or power to deal with Randy. You know Randy is going to push him up against the fence and test that cardio by leaning on him.

That's my feeling on the subject, but I don't know **** about Toney. Couture loves the dirty boxing, and clinching against the cage. But if Toney is known (or is still capable) of throwing KO power from in close (which I'm sure Randy and Co. have studied thoroughly), then Randy can't risk leaning up against him for fear of a one-shot finish.

[NoCalMike]

Something a lot of casual fans of MMA don't seem to realize and I guess it has become a big secret in the last five years is that most MMA fighters don't have very good chins, which is why it is MMA in the first place and not K1.

Therein lies the dilema because UFC seems to make it pretty known their feelings on the sport and what direction they want it to go in order to yield the biggest profit. Most of their highlights and marketing is geared towards the flash knockouts and ground & pound finishes, which then yields arenas full of drunk fans looking for a :30 second KO, or they start booing the fight.

Also, like I have said in previous posts, "heavy hands/power" gets mistaken for "technical striking" a lot of the time. You can usually tell the difference between someone who merely has a lot of power when they connect(Carwin, Wanderlai Silva, Dan Henderson), and someone who actually knows the standup game and comes from a boxing base(throwing jabs, combinations, using head movement, circling away from opponents power hand etc etc etc), guys like BJ Penn, Anderson Silva, Rashad Evans.

A lot of MMA fighters do bring in boxing coaches, but you are expecting a boxing coach to teach them the fundamentals in six months, when these are the same fundamentals they have been repeating over and over again for World Class boxers for their entire careers.

We can say what a great Dirty boxer Randy Couture is but James Toney is the real deal when it comes to boxing. He was one of the best in the world in his day, and now you are putting the MMA gloves on a boxer. Now of course, it remains to be seen if Toney is in this for the right reasons and even cares, or if he is just trying to stay relevent when he is obviously past his prime. However Couture is no spring chicken either, I am sure his reaction time is slower with every fight.

Couture better just play it safe and go for the take down as soon as it presents itself. We don't need another Sylvia vs. Ray Mercer debacle(yes I know circumstances were different).

Edited July 7, 2010 by NoCalMike

[ACW]

Oh, one more reason why the BMI is :bsflag:

Brock Lesnae would be classified as obese.

[#98QBKiller]

I don't know; it seems like if that happened in boxing it very well could've been stopped (well, the guy against the ropes, not on the ground obviously ).

At the time I wouldn't have argued against a stoppage but seeing as how Brock appeared to have regained his wits by the end of the round, I think it was the right call to let it go. Carwin's punches were hitting the arms and gloves of Lesnar toward the end of the round and I think it gave him time to recover. The ref was giving Brock the benefit of the doubt because it was a title fight and because he's a name in the sport, which isn't uncommon.

I bet if Carwin could go back, he'd make the ref stand Brock up after he hurt him initially and get into another exchange with him while he was still a little dazed instead of punching all of his cardio out on the ground and letting Brock recover.

Couture better just play it safe and go for the take down as soon as it presents itself. We don't need another Sylvia vs. Ray Mercer debacle(yes I know circumstances were different).

I don't think Randy is dumb enough to test the waters with Toney standing. I seriously think he comes out with his hands up high and clinches immediately, then probably backs off and shoots on him. This fight is easy for Randy if he wants it to be. Any kind of exchange is just putting the fight into Toney's hands.

[d0ublestr0ker0ll]

If Randy Couture spends a second on his feet beyond walking to the middle of the cage when the fight starts he will lose.

Something a lot of casual fans of MMA don't seem to realize and I guess it has become a big secret in the last five years is that most MMA fighters don't have very good chins, which is why it is MMA in the first place and not K1.

Therein lies the dilema because UFC seems to make it pretty known their feelings on the sport and what direction they want it to go in order to yield the biggest profit. Most of their highlights and marketing is geared towards the flash knockouts and ground & pound finishes, which then yields arenas full of drunk fans looking for a :30 second KO, or they start booing the fight.

Also, like I have said in previous posts, "heavy hands/power" gets mistaken for "technical striking" a lot of the time. You can usually tell the difference between someone who merely has a lot of power when they connect(Carwin, Wanderlai Silva, Dan Henderson), and someone who actually knows the standup game and comes from a boxing base(throwing jabs, combinations, using head movement, circling away from opponents power hand etc etc etc), guys like BJ Penn, Anderson Silva, Rashad Evans.

A lot of MMA fighters do bring in boxing coaches, but you are expecting a boxing coach to teach them the fundamentals in six months, when these are the same fundamentals they have been repeating over and over again for World Class boxers for their entire careers.

We can say what a great Dirty boxer Randy Couture is but James Toney is the real deal when it comes to boxing. He was one of the best in the world in his day, and now you are putting the MMA gloves on a boxer. Now of course, it remains to be seen if Toney is in this for the right reasons and even cares, or if he is just trying to stay relevent when he is obviously past his prime. However Couture is no spring chicken either, I am sure his reaction time is slower with every fight.

Couture better just play it safe and go for the take down as soon as it presents itself. We don't need another Sylvia vs. Ray Mercer debacle(yes I know circumstances were different).

I disagree with both of you. It really gets on my nerves when people dismiss MMA fighters' striking abilities because it doesn't look like picture-perfect boxing technique.

THAT'S THE ENTIRE POINT. You don't WANT to have picture-perfect boxing technique, you don't even want to mess with picture-perfect kickboxing technique these days. Anderson Silva keeps a wide, squatted stance that would make people ask WTF he's doing if it were a kickboxing bout. That's because he's prepared for the takedown.

MMA totally changes the footwork, the "beautiful" defense you'll see in boxing, the sweet extended jabs you'll see. Coming in with a technique that has been refined over generations without considering anything but punching is just a huge roll of the dice in every MMA bout you go in to.

This is why you don't see very much "technical boxing" in MMA, it's not because these guys don't put their work in. These guys are bad asses!! If they wanted to become technical boxers, I'm sure most of them could! But they have to consider so many things other than just fists. It changes the stance, the defense, the footwork, everything.

And, NoCalMike, who are these guys you mentioned that have a boxing base? BJ Penn? He's got great standup, but seriously, who wants to go to the ground with that guy? He's absolutely has a jiu jitsu base and is incredibly well rounded. Rampage? He's a wrestler who got KO'd twice by a guy in Wand who "merely has punching power" when they were both hitting their primes. He's such a good boxer that he barely beat Keith Jardine. Rashad Evans? A boxer? First of all, any amount of research will reveal that he comes from a wrestling background. Second, the dude has a ridiculously low stance and he's a leaping striker that happens to be quick and black. Doesn't make him a boxer.

Dirty boxing is so dismissed in this conversation that it's baffling. Think about what that means. Imagine someone clinching up with James Toney in a boxing match and throwing a knee they've practiced 10,000 times in training camp. Toney lets go and gets nailed by an elbow, then taken down. He's not used to that at all. Because the word "boxing" is in the terminology, automatically Randy can't use his bread and butter. It isn't in boxing, it's ILLEGAL in boxing, hence the word "dirty".

Randy is so good at stifling guys against the fence. All of a sudden James Toney is an expert at working the clinch. How so? A ref separates the boxers any time that happens. Toney better hope Mills Lane is working the fight. Randy is so good at working the fence that one mistake by Toney and he'll flash down to grab a leg.

Point is, the notion that James Toney will blast Randy right away is something you'd expect to hear in moderator-less boxing forum. Certainly it's a possibility, but let's not discredit Randy's ability to strike FOR an MMA fight. He knows how to set things up with his striking, not rely on it. I would not be surprised to see him throw some strikes to get a positional advantage on Toney.

Edited July 8, 2010 by d0ublestr0ker0ll

[Destino]

d0ublestr0ker0ll makes some great points. Boxing defense, stance, and technique are suicidal in MMA. Legs close together, small steps under your shoulders, and a forward lean on punches are a fantastic way to get put on the ground. Same applies to the stand tall kick boxing stance in which the core is kept rigid in order to provide a launching platform for extended strikes.

In MMA you need to defend the take down first. Even if you have a good defense on the ground the take down scores points and will steal rounds.

Also Rashad is not a boxer or a technical striker. He's a wrestler with speed. When he fought Machida, a far more technical striker, that he tried to exchange with in stand up the world saw Rashad's stand up for what it is. He gets away with it because people are worried about the take down and he's fast. When his speed is matched we're reminded that he should stick to wrestling.

[StillUnknown]

I'm not so sure. Toney is 41 and from what I've seen not exactly in the best shape of his life.

The old James Toney:

The current James Toney:

He may not have the lungs, speed, or power to deal with Randy. You know Randy is going to push him up against the fence and test that cardio by leaning on him.

he's been going 12rds in his current more rounded physique for the past couple of years

randy's chin is pretty bad now, if Toney touches him, he's going down.

if he gets tired, it will be because he has no idea how much grappling sucks the life out of you when you're not used to it

Edited July 7, 2010 by StillUnknown

[#98QBKiller]

d0ublestr0ker0ll makes some great points. Boxing defense, stance, and technique are suicidal in MMA. Legs close together, small steps under your shoulders, and a forward lean on punches are a fantastic way to get put on the ground. Same applies to the stand tall kick boxing stance in which the core is kept rigid in order to provide a launching platform for extended strikes.

In MMA you need to defend the take down first. Even if you have a good defense on the ground the take down scores points and will steal rounds.

A proper boxing stance doesn't keep the legs close together. You keep them shoulder-width apart because you need a good base. Keeping the legs close or crossing them is a good way to get knocked off balance and to hit the floor in boxing.

Also, I disagree about defending the takedown first in MMA. It really depends on the fighter. A lot of guys aren't worried about the takedown because they can wrestle and/or they're dangerous off their backs, then there are guys like Chuck Liddell who do defend the takedown first. That's why his hands are always so low and that's why he gets KO'd now that his chin has deteriorated. There are also a ton of guys who stand in traditional Muay Thai stances. Shogun and Wanderlei both come to mind. BJ Penn damn near stands in a full boxing stance. His balance is so good that he can fight off singles and if a guy shoots for a double he knows that he can just sprawl or back up and try to time a knee.

[Chachie]

Yes, there is more to a stand-up fight than just fists in MMA. Great points, Strokes. I expect Randy to win this fight in his realm and by using the tools of his particular martial art. However, in James Toney we are talking about the ultimate dirty boxer. A man who made his career letting guys push him against the ropes and letting the opponent make the first move. Randy better make that first move a takedown.

[d0ublestr0ker0ll]

John Anik from MMA Live reported on SportsNation that Lesnar vs. Velasquez could happen as soon as September.

I tell ya what, I'm a fan of Brock Lesnar now. I admittedly used to root against him. But I tell ya what, he is perhaps the greatest ambassador for American MMA ever. In fact, it's clear cut. The dude has given the best interviews leading up to, as well as after his fight with Shane Carwin. He's been well-spoken, very descriptive, honest, it's been great to listen to him lately. I hope he wins for MMA's sake.

Anybody these days will look like they have stellar striking against Big Nog. How soon we forget Cain got popped a bunch of times against Cheick "I got blasted by Mir" Kongo. Nog was a punching bag for Cain. To me, Cain still has some work to do...and Brock could expose that with a well-timed takedown while following up with destruction.

That said, Cain has had a looonnnnggg camp to sharpen up. It will be interesting to see how he comes out after such a long time to get ready for this fight.

Edited July 8, 2010 by d0ublestr0ker0ll

[herrmag]

I tell ya what, I'm a fan of Brock Lesnar now. I admittedly used to root against him. But I tell ya what, he is perhaps the greatest ambassador for American MMA ever. In fact, it's clear cut. The dude has given the best interviews leading up to, as well as after his fight with Shane Carwin. He's been well-spoken, very descriptive, honest, it's been great to listen to him lately.

I agree. I've been a harsh critic of his. I actually think Carwin would've been the best ambassador (is there a fighter in MMA that tries to communicate with his fans more?). That being said, something happened in Lesnar's battle out of the cage that has definitely adjusted his attitude and helped him shed his WWE'esque tactics. Can't say I'll root for him against Cain, but won't be disappointed if he does win.

Edited July 8, 2010 by herrmag

[Destino]

A proper boxing stance doesn't keep the legs close together. You keep them shoulder-width apart because you need a good base. Keeping the legs close or crossing them is a good way to get knocked off balance and to hit the floor in boxing.

But you stand tall and lean forward much of the time with your hands high and depending on your defense potentially a high shoulder. An easy take down target either way.

Also, I disagree about defending the takedown first in MMA. It really depends on the fighter. A lot of guys aren't worried about the takedown because they can wrestle and/or they're dangerous off their backs, then there are guys like Chuck Liddell who do defend the takedown first. That's why his hands are always so low and that's why he gets KO'd now that his chin has deteriorated. There are also a ton of guys who stand in traditional Muay Thai stances. Shogun and Wanderlei both come to mind. BJ Penn damn near stands in a full boxing stance. His balance is so good that he can fight off singles and if a guy shoots for a double he knows that he can just sprawl or back up and try to time a knee.

All depends on who they are fighting. Evans is a fantastic wrestler and had the lowest stances I've seen in a while against Rampage. Did he get knocked out? Of course not. Keeping your hands low isn't the right way to defend takedowns. A wider and lower stance is the correct position to be in, it's all about denying the double leg.

Clearly being dangerous and confident on your back against an opponent you can beat makes you more confident. I have to say though that against GSP, BJ Penn should have spent a lot more time defend takedowns and fighting out of dirty boxing positions (another thing a boxing stance makes easy to impost) than standing in a great striking position.

Also I'll be interested to see if Shogun isn't defending the take down against Rashad. I don't think Rashad isn't going to have too different a game plan than the one he brought against Rampage. A lot of movement and go for the take down. Griffin tired out Shogun and showed that his ground game isn't that dangerous.

[NoCalMike]

Ok, I know boxing stances don't translate 100% smoothly to MMA.

My overall point though is that a lot of MMA fighters come from a wrestling and/or BJJ base. That is the meat & potatoes of their skill set, but you find them increasingly abandoning that and just deciding to get into the cage and throwdown, and when that happens, with guys who don't have the technique or chin it makes them a very ordinary fighter. It seems like the UFC is pushing the sport of MMA more towards a K1 style of fighting.

Things like, chin down, hands up, circling, head movement. Those are techniques anyone should know if they are going go into the Octagon looking to standup and bang, yet you constantly see fighters making tactical errors which you'd think they would have picked up a long time before ever sniffing the UFC.

Now, yes in MMA there is more to it, because you also need to know transitional bases. Basically how to maintain striking technique as someone is diving at your legs for a takedown. This is something obvious that seperates an MMA fighter from a boxer, but there are also coaches who specialize in transitioning.

[NoCalMike]

Also I'll be interested to see if Shogun isn't defending the take down against Rashad. I don't think Rashad isn't going to have too different a game plan than the one he brought against Rampage. A lot of movement and go for the take down. Griffin tired out Shogun and showed that his ground game isn't that dangerous.

Well Shogun also blew out his knee in that fight, which some thought was the end of his career, or if he came back he would never be the same.

Also, Rampage had way too long of a layoff and his motivation in taking the fight was heavily questioned.

I think 'Shad forgot for awhile about his wrestling skills ever since giving Forrest a beat down, but against Rampage he realized that is his best bet moving forward, use the skills that got him here in the first place.

[StillUnknown]

Well Shogun also blew out his knee in that fight, which some thought was the end of his career, or if he came back he would never be the same.

Also, Rampage had way too long of a layoff and his motivation in taking the fight was heavily questioned.

I think 'Shad forgot for awhile about his wrestling skills ever since giving Forrest a beat down, but against Rampage he realized that is his best bet moving forward, use the skills that got him here in the first place.

apparently shogun's knee needs another operation so shogun/rashad wont happen until march of next year :mad:

Rashad lost his wrestling after he murdered Liddell. i think the machida loss knocked some sense into him and got him back to his roots

Edited July 8, 2010 by StillUnknown

[#98QBKiller]

Well Shogun also blew out his knee in that fight, which some thought was the end of his career, or if he came back he would never be the same.

Also, Rampage had way too long of a layoff and his motivation in taking the fight was heavily questioned.

I think 'Shad forgot for awhile about his wrestling skills ever since giving Forrest a beat down, but against Rampage he realized that is his best bet moving forward, use the skills that got him here in the first place.

And Rampage was still able to put Rashad in big trouble in the 3rd round of that fight. If Rampage's cardio were any better he would've been able to finish.

Also, wasn't Shogun already coming off of a knee surgery before the Forrest fight, then re-injured it during the fight?

Between that fight and his Coleman fight you could tell his conditioning wasn't where it should be. I have no doubt that the Shogun that beat Liddell and Machida (twice ) would destroy Forrest Griffin.

I'm just hoping Shogun gets his cardio right before he returns from knee surgery this time. When his conditioning is even close to 100 percent, he's hard to touch at 205.

[#98QBKiller]

And on another note, does anyone really think that Chael Sonnen will do anything other than get knocked out or submitted next month? I've read posts on sherdog saying that this is the guy to beat Anderson. I'm just not seeing it. He's going to have to lay on top of Anderson for 5 rounds to win this fight.

The last time a Team Quest wrestler took on Anderson he got RNC'd in the 2nd round and IMO, Dan Henderson is still a more dangerous fighter than Sonnen. Not to mention Sonnen's shown a particular weakness against good BJJ in the past.

I think overall 117 will be a good card but I'm not sold on the main event.

[Chachie]

And on another note, does anyone really think that Chael Sonnen will do anything other than get knocked out or submitted next month? I've read posts on sherdog saying that this is the guy to beat Anderson. I'm just not seeing it. He's going to have to lay on top of Anderson for 5 rounds to win this fight.

Although I think Sonnen will get torched at 117, doesn't it always seem like the least likely candidates shock the world in fights like this? He could be another Buster Douglas... or Fabricio Werdum.

[StillUnknown]

And on another note, does anyone really think that Chael Sonnen will do anything other than get knocked out or submitted next month? I've read posts on sherdog saying that this is the guy to beat Anderson. I'm just not seeing it. He's going to have to lay on top of Anderson for 5 rounds to win this fight.

The last time a Team Quest wrestler took on Anderson he got RNC'd in the 2nd round and IMO, Dan Henderson is still a more dangerous fighter than Sonnen. Not to mention Sonnen's shown a particular weakness against good BJJ in the past.

I think overall 117 will be a good card but I'm not sold on the main event.

the only question in my mind is whether Anderson decides to toy with him or not

[KDawg]

I agree. I've been a harsh critic of his. I actually think Carwin would've been the best ambassador (is there a fighter in MMA that tries to communicate with his fans more?). That being said, something happened in Lesnar's battle out of the cage that has definitely adjusted his attitude and helped him shed his WWE'esque tactics. Can't say I'll root for him against Cain, but won't be disappointed if he does win.

This is non sense. He did the "WWE'esque" stuff one time against Mir. Who he couldn't stand... And I don't blame him. Mir ran his mouth the entire time and Brock beat him down for it.

When you finally do what you set out to do after such blatant disrespect emotions flow, right or wrong. His display was ridiculous, but it was out of sheer emotion. He hasn't done anything like that at any point in his MMA career before that.

He says what he thinks and doesn't sugar coat things, but that doesn't make what he does "WWE'esque"

[herrmag]

This is non sense. He did the "WWE'esque" stuff one time against Mir. Who he couldn't stand... And I don't blame him. Mir ran his mouth the entire time and Brock beat him down for it.

When you finally do what you set out to do after such blatant disrespect emotions flow, right or wrong. His display was ridiculous, but it was out of sheer emotion. He hasn't done anything like that at any point in his MMA career before that.

He says what he thinks and doesn't sugar coat things, but that doesn't make what he does "WWE'esque"

Really? how about the interview when he knocked the door off the hinges after re-watching his loss to Mir? How about his little gay-ass lasso thing he did right after he beat Herring? So no, it's not nonsense just because you claim it is.

[Dr. Do Itch Big]

silva gonna murder sonnen, hopefully

[KDawg]

Really? how about the interview when he knocked the door off the hinges after re-watching his loss to Mir? How about his little gay-ass lasso thing he did right after he beat Herring? So no, it's not nonsense just because you claim it is.

Knocking the door off the hinges... Ever stop and think that maybe he was pissed about the whole thing? Like how the ref didn't get Mir off of him after he had tapped a bunch of times? That ref left Lesnar out to dry. He could have been seriously injured because of that. And not to mention he lost to Frank Mir, who has no idea how to stop running his mouth. A man that he despises. That ties in with the whole show he put on after the Mir fight.

The Herring lasso thing is overblown as well, but that one I'll give you was a little on the ridiculous side.

And by the way, when I say something is non sense, it's my opinion. It's not the end all be all.

[herrmag]

Knocking the door off the hinges... Ever stop and think that maybe he was pissed about the whole thing? Like how the ref didn't get Mir off of him after he had tapped a bunch of times? That ref left Lesnar out to dry. He could have been seriously injured because of that. And not to mention he lost to Frank Mir, who has no idea how to stop running his mouth. A man that he despises. That ties in with the whole show he put on after the Mir fight.

The Herring lasso thing is overblown as well, but that one I'll give you was a little on the ridiculous side.

And by the way, when I say something is non sense, it's my opinion. It's not the end all be all.

Let's be honest with the door-knocking thing. It was staged. The whole interview thing looked just like a WWE scene. Wouldn't shock me if Dana encouraged it. Also, there was that "turning heel" (yes, I was a wrastlin' fan back in my early 20's ) on the sponsor after one of his fights. Was it Bud Light? Regardless, Dana put him in check for that one.

Just nice to see him let his fighting do the talking and not the antics pre/post fight.

[d0ublestr0ker0ll]

Does everybody else notice that Brock Lesnar is the most polarizing figure in the sport? Everybody gets along until he's the focus of the conversation.