Anything MMA, except thumb wrestling

[NoCalMike]

I'm not a Brock hater. All I have ever said regarding him is that because he has so few fights we just don't know what we have on our hands. He is getting better with every fight. I have never said otherwise.

Pointing out flaws in a fighter's game is observation, not hating.

I never said Brock sucks.

And as far as the UFC Heavyweight division overall goes. There is a lot of raw talent in there, but most guys have only had a handful of fights. So you have a fighter with a handful of fights fighting another guy with a handful of fights, and calling one of them the best heavyweight fighter in the world. Just because a fighter is fighting under the UFC banner doesn't automatically change his resume or credentials. It definately does seem to change the hype though, surrounding the fighter and any of their fights.

Also, another point on the fight, Carwin looked just as uncomfortable on the ground underneath Brock, as Brock did when he tasted a punch. Carwin was straight up garbage on the ground. Once Brock got on top, Carwin basically laid there. Part of this was the fact that he was gassed, but when Brock first synced in the arm triangle, it was loose and Carwin had a good chance to put up some type of defense against it, but dude laid there. He was done. His cardio was not good. As soon as round two was about to begin, you could see it in Carwin's eyes that he was done. Brock had superior cardio, he was smiling and winking. Any neutral observer know right then, if Brock got a takedown away from the cage, it was over.

....and this is my entire point of guys being super-inflated because they fight in UFC. Dana White would have you believe this fight was between two guys who are these indestructible machines who have been fighting for years, when anyone who has a keen eye for the sport and studies it a little bit could see that both these guys came off looking like who they are, two guys who have been in MMA for a couple of years. They both have raw talent & skill, and athletic ability(moreso Brock) but they are still new to this sport. Just take the UFC hype machine blinders off.

Edited July 4, 2010 by NoCalMike

[21cents]

How is honest analysis "hating." I thought Brock looked very uncomfortable on his back. He was obviously buying his time, because even when he was given the chance he didn't stand up, but he still didn't look good.

I was extremely impressed that Lesnar was actually able to win this match, because he was obviously hurt. He realized that Carwin was way too much for him to stand up and trade blows, and he pulled it off.

Average Carwins fight last 1 min and 8 sec.

Theirs no fighter in the heavy weight that can trade punches with him. If any other fighter goes down hes not getting up brock being the exception

[#98QBKiller]

Well to be fair brock didnt fight for a year because of his illness. He still pulled out a win. The scary part if hes a work in progress. He gets better and better every fight. The guy is a true champion and i dont understand haters like you.

How did you get that he's a hater out of that post? He was analyzing why Brock was in trouble for pretty much the entire first round.

[d0ublestr0ker0ll]

Average Carwins fight last 1 min and 8 sec.

Theirs no fighter in the heavy weight that can trade punches with him. If any other fighter goes down hes not getting up brock being the exception

Just because he has bombastic power in his hands doesn't mean fighters can't trade with him. I'd give the technical and speed advantage to both Cain Velasquez and Junior Dos Santos. Both of them have plenty enough power in their hands. I think Overeem would embarrass Carwin on the feet, I think Fedor's explosive standup would be too much as well.

These huge guys that punch like freight trains, all they have to do is land a grazing blow and the fight could be on its way to a stoppage. Carwin is no exception, the gloves are so small and these guys hit so ****ing hard. If Carwin wades in there with his meathooks and catches a counterpunch by anybody in the top 5, he'll be in a world of ****. It goes both ways, of course, but certainly there are fighters that can trade punches with Carwin and potentially knock him out.

[StillUnknown]

Brock vs. Cain should be interesting. Cain is a better technical fighter than either one, but I am not sure if there is anyone in the division besides Carwin that can match Brock's strength. And I know strength isn't the most important thing ever, but when one has that big of an advantage it tends to mean more. Cain is the complete package. He can wrestle, strike, submit, GnP etc etc....dude uses leg kicks to set up his strikes. So far Brock has shown that once he gets on top of you the fight is going to be over soon, whether it is by TKO or now even by submission. That right there is a distinct advantage for Brock no matter who he fights.

As far as Carwin goes, I see him landing the winner of Nelson/Dos Santos for a #1 contenders match. After the Brock/Carwin match, I am sure fans are pining for a rematch, and I don't see anyone besides Carwin right now that is a "one-win away from" type of guy.

i think Cain's speed will be hell for lesnar when they're striking. cain's wrestling pedigree is strong, but lesnar's is better and he'll have a considerable size advantage. i'm not really seeing how cain can prevent the takedown

in regards to Carwin, i think they'll match him with Big Nog next (although as a nog fan, i cannot look forward to that). Dana has already said that the winner of Dos Santos/Big Country will get the next title shot after Cain

Edited July 4, 2010 by StillUnknown

[NoCalMike]

I don't think anyone is questioning Brock's chin. That point being made is that Carwin's "heavy hands" are being mistaken for "great technical striking" which is far from what he is.

Just because you can hit with a lot of power, it does not make you a technical striker. Dos Santos and Velasquez are both better technical strikers than Carwin, although their power alone is not off the charts like Carwin's, but again, to me technical striking > raw power because we saw how raw power can fail you when it is absent the technical wherewithal. When Carwin got Brock on the ground, a better technical striker would have ended that fight within the next 30 seconds. Instead Carwin was just throwing bombs that were landing anywhere they might fall, which in his case was mostly, forearms, shoulders, gloves.

[Unforgiven]

Cain my be a superior technical striker to Carwin, he doesn't have the size and power to try and impose his will on Lesnar like Carwin did. Cain may be a more well rounded fighter than either Lesnar or Carwin, but he'll give up 20+ pounds and a lot of power to Lesnar who has a better wrestling pedigree.

When you're talking MMA and especially Heavyweights, anything is possible, you're always 1 clean shot away from winning. I just don't see Cain posing the same threat to Brock as Carwin did/does. Though he's someone to take very very seriously.

Edit: Also keep in mind that Cain will be giving up a good 4 inches in reach to Lesnar.

Edited July 4, 2010 by Unforgiven

[NoCalMike]

Cain my be a superior technical striker to Carwin, he doesn't have the size and power to try and impose his will on Lesnar like Carwin did. Cain may be a more well rounded fighter than either Lesnar or Carwin, but he'll give up 20+ pounds and a lot of power to Lesnar who has a better wrestling pedigree.

When you're talking MMA and especially Heavyweights, anything is possible, you're always 1 clean shot away from winning. I just don't see Cain posing the same threat to Brock as Carwin did/does. Though he's someone to take very very seriously.

Edit: Also keep in mind that Cain will be giving up a good 4 inches in reach to Lesnar.

Not going to argue with anything you said there really. I could see Cain working on leg kicks and stuffing takedowns. He might come out in the first round and try to soften up Brock's legs which will take away the explosiveness and ability to shoot in for takedowns.

What people need to realize is that watching the Heavyweight division is one hell of a spectacle, but overall the SKILLS are lacking compared to every other weight division. The margin of error is a lot smaller because of how big these guys are. This allows someone like Brock to come in with no experience, but having a ton of athletic ability and a legit wrestling background, to come in and dominate a lot of the competition. We don't ever see this kind of thing in other weight divisions because the skill level is way high among the "elite fighters" in those weight divisions.

[Sebowski]

Chris Leben.

UFC 118 will have James "Lights Out" Toney make his MMA debut. Going to be hilarious when he knocks out his opponent in the first 30 seconds.

Wrong thread. Try here: http://www.sherdog.net/forums/

For a minute, I thought you meant in regards to this fight. Now I realize you literally meant near death. I don't think Brock is the ****y guy everyone thinks/thought he was. He was pissed at Mir and his emotions poured out. He clearly doesn't like the guy. I think that's part of what happened with his post fight tirade versus him.

I've seen him being respectful to every one of his opponents otherwise.

Agreed. Brock has always been a good dude. He just wears his emotions on his sleeve. When it was a heated rivalry were he was being disrespected over and over again by Mir he took went off on him. Mir deserved every but of it.

How great is Brock on the mic? He can play the crowd anyway he wants to. Dana should send Vince some royalty checks.

Also, look before Brock even goes down. The minute he tastes a little glove, the dude abandons any notion of a game plan and retreats and looks lost, which leads to another barrage of punches and the initial knockdown.

This is a worrisome for Brock for sure, BUT, 3 things:

1. As has already been mentioned, no one in MMA hits harder than Carwin. He took the hits and survived. I hope that gives him the confidence to not back up when one is coming next time. He doesn;t need to start blocking punches with his face ala Chris Leben, but hopefully he learns he should be scared of a punch.

2. This was his 5th fight! He needed to get hit and react before learning from it. I'm hoping he does.

------

Won money on Lesnar and Leben last night. Also got 4 of 5 right on Carwin's UG pick 'em contest. Might net me a prize!

[jnhay]

Just because he has bombastic power in his hands doesn't mean fighters can't trade with him. I'd give the technical and speed advantage to both Cain Velasquez and Junior Dos Santos. Both of them have plenty enough power in their hands. I think Overeem would embarrass Carwin on the feet, I think Fedor's explosive standup would be too much as well.

Were you surprised at how dominant he was in the first round?

[#98QBKiller]

in regards to Carwin, i think they'll match him with Big Nog next (although as a nog fan, i cannot look forward to that). Dana has already said that the winner of Dos Santos/Big Country will get the next title shot after Cain

I'm so not looking forward to Nog/Carwin. I don't even think Nog in his prime could take a power shot from Carwin, and he definitely won't be able to take one now.

I'm hoping Dos Santos wins because I don't see Big Country beating Cain or Lesnar. Dos Santos at least has a good chance standing.

[#98QBKiller]

Also, another point on the fight, Carwin looked just as uncomfortable on the ground underneath Brock, as Brock did when he tasted a punch. Carwin was straight up garbage on the ground. Once Brock got on top, Carwin basically laid there. Part of this was the fact that he was gassed, but when Brock first synced in the arm triangle, it was loose and Carwin had a good chance to put up some type of defense against it, but dude laid there. He was done. His cardio was not good. As soon as round two was about to begin, you could see it in Carwin's eyes that he was done. Brock had superior cardio, he was smiling and winking. Any neutral observer know right then, if Brock got a takedown away from the cage, it was over.

....and this is my entire point of guys being super-inflated because they fight in UFC. Dana White would have you believe this fight was between two guys who are these indestructible machines who have been fighting for years, when anyone who has a keen eye for the sport and studies it a little bit could see that both these guys came off looking like who they are, two guys who have been in MMA for a couple of years. They both have raw talent & skill, and athletic ability(moreso Brock) but they are still new to this sport. Just take the UFC hype machine blinders off.

Great post.

Carwin needs to learn some basic defense from his back or at least learn to not land in a dangerous position when taken down. As soon as Brock was past his guard I knew it was over. Especially with the time left on the clock. Brock's just too big and strong to try and fight off from side control for five minutes, even for someone as big as Carwin.

Totally agree about Dana too. But it's a business and that's how he operates. He said Wanderlei Silva was overrated in 2006 but as soon as he was brought over from Pride, Dana marketed him as one of the best LHW's to ever fight.

You can even see it now when they show Best of Pride on Spike. Zuffa owns the rights to Pride now and they conveniently leave out any of Fedor or Hendo's fights, but they'll show Gomi when he was still good or Liddell KOing Overeem because it makes the UFC look better to casual fans.

It just gets annoying when people buy into the UFC marketing hype sometimes because they often conveniently leave out pieces to the story at hand.

[Destino]

Well I would say once Brock was dropped, Carwin got sloppy and was just throwing bombs that were hitting Brock's arms, shoulders and gloves. With the exception of the elbow he dropped.

This is a great example of hindsight being 20/20. You say Carwin was sloppy. Kindly point out one time his approach last night hasn't worked? What's that? Never?! NOT ONCE?! Oh well then clearly I can see why he should have known that THIS time, the 13th time, someone would be able to take four times more punishment than he's ever dished out and survive.

I mean... what WAS he thinking.

Also, look before Brock even goes down. The minute he tastes a little glove, the dude abandons any notion of a game plan and retreats and looks lost, which leads to another barrage of punches and the initial knockdown. There are plenty of fighters that get tagged with a good shot and don't immediately go into retreat mode.

How many of them took a shot from Carwin and won the fight? Let's remember something here... the guy was 12-0 and no fighter out of those dozen ever lasted 4 minutes let alone a full round. It's one thing to get tagged with a good shot and another entirely to get tagged by a guy swinging sledge hammers.

[#98QBKiller]

Great story on the Leben fight too:

http://mmajunkie.com/news/19815/for-an-overwhelmed-chris-leben-ufc-116-win-was-a-classic-two-round-affair.mma

For an "overwhelmed" Chris Leben, UFC 116 win was a classic two-round affair

by John Morgan on Jul 04, 2010 at 3:05 pm ET

LAS VEGAS – For UFC middleweight slugger Chris Leben (21-6 MMA, 11-5 UFC), the past two weeks have certainly been a strange and wonderful journey.

Two weeks, two fights, two wins, two "Fight Night" bonus checks, and after his stunning UFC 116 submission of Yoshihiro Akiyama (13-2 MMA, 1-1 UFC), two second-round finishes.

At least as far as "The Crippler" remembers it.

"Afterward I was talking to my coaches, and I was like, 'So what was that, like the end of the second round?'" Leben told MMAjunkie.com (www.mmajunkie.com). "He must have caught me in there because normally I remember fights like in slow-motion. I don't even remember the whole thing. I'm going to have to watch the tape."

Of course, it wasn't the end of the second round. Instead, there were just 20 seconds remaining in the third and final frame of the tightly contested, back-and-forth, "Fight of the Night" bout. It was anybody's fight at that point, as the previous 14 minutes and 40 seconds had been a roller-coaster affair.

Moments prior to the triangle-choke finish, Leben was laying on his back firing up punches with both hands simultaneously. At that moment, he said, he and Akiyama bonded as warriors.

"When I started to do the double-punch, I looked up at Akiyama, and he was smiling at me," Leben said. "I know he knew it, too. It was like, 'Yeah, we're in a fight. This is good.'"

Good doesn't begin to describe it. Great is more like it, and after trading toe-to-toe and chest-to-chest with the Japanese superstar, it's easy to understand why Leben's memory is a bit hazy.

"Chris Leben was literally knocked out standing straight up," UFC president Dana White said after the fight. "I've only seen that a couple of times. Usually when that happens, the guy has to go down. He was knocked out standing up, and in typical Chris Leben fashion, all of a sudden you just saw him snap out of it and start hammering away.

"He is so fun to watch fight."

Just like his "Knockout of the Night" fight with Aaron Simpson at The Ultimate Fighter 11 Finale just two weeks earlier, Leben found himself in trouble in the opening minutes of the contest. While Leben says he prides himself on ample takedown defense, Akiyama's judo prowess left him scrambling.

"It's just completely different," Leben said. "His throws really threw me for a loop. It wasn't a wrestling-type double- or single-leg. He really tied me up and he tripped me well.

"I rarely get taken down in the gym. I'm used to having world-class wrestlers shoot on me, and I can stuff them. His judo was more than I expected. I'm like, 'No judo guy can throw me. I'm not wearing a gi, and I'll punch him in his face.' Obviously, that wasn't the case."

But a funny thing happened while Leben was fighting from his back. While the 29-year-old has always known as a potent striker, he proved that he's also developed into a cerebral grappler.

Leben missed a handful of armbar attempts throughout the fight, but the failed maneuvers worked to ultimately set up the successful triangle choke.

"I do think a lot when I'm fighting, believe it or not," Leben said. "When I went for the armbar, after that I was like, 'He's letting me walk my legs up and leave them up there. This guy's going to let me triangle him.' That's when I decided I was going to go for the submission as opposed to just working to stand up.

"I heard my corner – sorry guys, I love you – they were yelling, 'Stand up, stand up, stand up,' but I knew that submission was there because he was letting me set it up."

It was an emotional victory for Leben, and perhaps one that could signal a renaissance for the cast member of the original season of "The Ultimate Fighter."

The significance of the 14-day span of his career was not lost on Leben – even if he may have forgotten a round or two along the way.

"It's so overwhelming," Leben said. "We train our whole lives. I laid in bed [Friday] night and cried because I want to win so bad. I don't want to let my coaches and my corner down so much. Everyone has put so much into me.

"The emotion afterward is mind-boggling. I can't explain it. There's nothing like winning a fight in the UFC. There's nothing like it in the world, period. ... It's been a long road, a somewhat bumpy one for me. This is huge. My career and my life are in better places right now than they've ever been."

[Destino]

If someone says Fedor is still #1 I'll just have to ignore them.

Fedor is nothing but a question mark CURRENTLY. He lost and no one knows if that was a result of age/mileage catching up to him or if it's just a fluke. If he comes back and takes out some serious fighters he's #1 and there is little argument otherwise because of his insane record. If he loses again he's not even top 10 because we've all seen the downward spiral that ends fighters careers.

What Fedor is, is arguably the best fighter ever. Certainly the best MMA heavy weight. What he is today however is in question.

[d0ublestr0ker0ll]

Were you surprised at how dominant he was in the first round?

Not at all, I picked Shane to win by KO in the first. The second paragraph you erased explains the reason why. These guys touch each other with their fists and someone is going down. I thought Carwin had the better chance against Brock in that regard.

[#98QBKiller]

Fedor is nothing but a question mark CURRENTLY. He lost and no one knows if that was a result of age/mileage catching up to him or if it's just a fluke. If he comes back and takes out some serious fighters he's #1 and there is little argument otherwise because of his insane record. If he loses again he's not even top 10 because we've all seen the downward spiral that ends fighters careers.

What Fedor is, is arguably the best fighter ever. Certainly the best MMA heavy weight. What he is today however is in question.

Age/mileage had little to do with his loss. It wasn't a speed/cardio/chin issue like we see with declining fighters, it was just a dumb mistake.

I agree that there's no question that he's the best HW fighter of all time but the title for current best HW is debatable.

[herrmag]

Age/mileage had little to do with his loss. It wasn't a speed/cardio/chin issue like we see with declining fighters, it was just a dumb mistake.

I agree that there's no question that he's the best HW fighter of all time but the title for current best HW is debatable.

I don't really see how anyone can debate that he's not the best MMA fighter of all time. His record alone is unmatched.

However, despite being caught in the triangle by making a poor decision, that doesn't mean that age didn't play a factor. He's notorious for being able to pull his way out of situations like that. Granted, he's probably never fought someone with Werdum's BJJ prowess. But, who knows if the Fedor of 3 years ago could've muscled his way out.

[#98QBKiller]

I don't really see how anyone can debate that he's not the best MMA fighter of all time. His record alone is unmatched.

However, despite being caught in the triangle by making a poor decision, that doesn't mean that age didn't play a factor. He's notorious for being able to pull his way out of situations like that. Granted, he's probably never fought someone with Werdum's BJJ prowess. But, who knows if the Fedor of 3 years ago could've muscled his way out.

I don't know, once a triangle is locked properly there's no muscling your way out. The room starts getting smaller and you either tap or wake up with people standing around you. Plus Fedor fought off an armbar first, then Werdum transitioned to the triangle and just got it locked tight. Fedor basically had to pick his poison, he was either getting armbarred or triangled once he was down there. He should've known better than to jump onto a guy with the ground resume of Werdum, just a huge mistake IMO. Which is definitely rare for Fedor.

[StillUnknown]

I don't know, once a triangle is locked properly there's no muscling your way out. The room starts getting smaller and you either tap or wake up with people standing around you. Plus Fedor fought off an armbar first, then Werdum transitioned to the triangle and just got it locked tight. Fedor basically had to pick his poison, he was either getting armbarred or triangled once he was down there. He should've known better than to jump onto a guy with the ground resume of Werdum, just a huge mistake IMO. Which is definitely rare for Fedor.

add to the fact that it was early in the 1st round so he probably wasn't sweating enough to slip out of it.

[Sebowski]

I don't know, once a triangle is locked properly there's no muscling your way out. The room starts getting smaller and you either tap or wake up with people standing around you. Plus Fedor fought off an armbar first, then Werdum transitioned to the triangle and just got it locked tight. Fedor basically had to pick his poison, he was either getting armbarred or triangled once he was down there. He should've known better than to jump onto a guy with the ground resume of Werdum, just a huge mistake IMO. Which is definitely rare for Fedor.

Double's sig can think of one way to get out of a triangle.

[#98QBKiller]

Double's sig can think of one way to get out of a triangle.

That triangle isn't locked in.

[Chachie]

add to the fact that it was early in the 1st round so he probably wasn't sweating enough to slip out of it.

This.

Credit Werdum with applying two holds at once because that's ultimately what did Fedor in. He was forced to decide and ultimately defend two maneuvers at the same time, this caused indecision and sealed his fate while Fab tightened whichever one was more feasible in that split second... but the Fedor we know would not have put himself in that position so early in the first round when there's no sweat to help him slip out. He got overzealous and made a rookie mistake. He gave Werdum the fight on Fab's terms. Game over.

I don't know if Fedor has the sheer size and power to hang with Lesnar at this stage of his life, but there's no question whatsoever that Brock will have to win a ton of fights before I can rank him up there with Fedor's career. The greatest MMA career of all time, bar none.

[Sebowski]

...Also got 4 of 5 right on Carwin's UG pick 'em contest. Might net me a prize!

I won the 2nd prize in Shane's contest! Here's my winnings:

to Sebowski 12:14 PM (1 hour ago)

You won the pick 4/5 correct portion of the contest

You won a cool prize package:

Get 4 out 5 right (only one possible winner): 1- case of Good4udrinks, 1- Dethrone Walkout Tee, 1- signed 8x10, 1- call from me to you (15 minutes), 1- Free consultation at Max Muscle, 1- signed Warrior Wear hat, 1- $30 dollar gift card to Performancemma.com, 1- free HeadBlade gift pack, 1- Sample Pack from Magnum Detox, 1-Tapout Home Mat by Dollamur Sports Surfaces and $50.00 MTX Audio Store Credit.

:dj:

What do you guys want me to ask my buddy Shane next time he hits me up on my cell?

Edited July 5, 2010 by Sebowski

[Destino]

Ask him if his boss (day job) treats him like everyone else in the office or if Shane can just give him a look and get him to back off. lol

Imagine having that brute lumber into your office 5 minutes late and looking like he had a bad morning. Would you ***** at him? hahaha