The Figure Four - ALL Things ECW-WWF-NJPW-TNA-ROH-AEW

[Busch1724]

1 hour ago, justice98 said:

I feel like y'all gotta re-read Evil Genius' question.  It's not who was better, who was cooler, who had more catchphrases, or even who had better matches.  It was who has done more for WWE.  Make an argument the Rock did more.

 

Easy, the exposure alone for the last 15 years from his movie career. The random pop ins during that time to promote a movie helped too. He was a money machine for the WWE. 

1 minute ago, Momma There Goes That Man said:

 

The Rock helped mainstream and legitimize WWE.

 

 

This and all the subsequent points. 

[Momma There Goes That Man]

The Rock made the WWE cool and acceptable in a way that even Austin's popularity and his redneck gimmick never could. 

 

That's not to take anything away from Austin, but it does take it away from Cena. Even at Cena's peak, a ton of people didn't like him and he turned people off the product. 

Edited April 9, 2019 by Momma There Goes That Man

[justice98]

1 hour ago, Momma There Goes That Man said:

 

The Rock helped mainstream and legitimize WWE. His crossover appeal brought more casuals and interest to the sport than ever before. He was on morning talk shows, in movies, on SNL, literally everywhere. He cast a spotlight on the promotion that Cena was never able to duplicate. Ratings consistently declined during Cena's era. Cena may have been there longer, but he oversaw a worse period of WWE. Plus, Cena doesn't exist without the presence and platform that the Rock created. 

 

A huge part of this graph is due to Austin but Rock was the face and leading star when it peaked and his absence directly ties into it's decline despite Austin returning as a regular. 

 

 

 

Yes, Rock was a part of the most prosperous time in pro wrestling history. But your argument makes it seem like he's responsible. I think you're giving Rock more individual credit than is warranted.   Austin was THE man.  They were not co-equal when WWE was at its highest.  Austin was always bigger.  And some of the biggest draws in the history of the business were all in their prime at the same time and going against each other, Austin, Rock, Undertaker, HHH, even Vince if you wanna throw that in there since he as instrumental as anybody as a character.

 

Rock was never THE guy really, at least not for very long. He never had the burden of carrying the company on his back for long stretches.

 

As far as that graph goes, the context is completely missing.  Ratings for everything started going down, it wasnt just Raw.  But I think house show attendance was pretty stable. It went down, but not as big as that.

 

But you know what that sharp decline was between 2000 and 2001 was?  If my timeline is right, that's when Austin had neck surgery and Rock was on top by himself for almost a year.  Somebody can fact check that, I could be wrong, but I think that's correct.  That was the whole Rikishi running him over angle. 

 

Another factor in the decline was Vince buying WCW.  That didnt help the situation, it hurt it. Changing to PG, cyclical nature of the business, there's a whole bunch of stuff that has nothing to do with either Rock or Cena.

 

The presence and platform Rock created was more the Rock succeeding in Hollywood, post wrestling.  I'll give him credit for opening that door for Cena.  But Rock didnt start really doing movies like that until 02.  He was basically a part timer after that until he left for good like year or so later. As far as being the being the guy in WWF/E, the torch went from Hogan, to Warrior, to Bret, back to Hogan, to Bret, to Austin, to Rock, to Cena, but Rock only held it for like 2 minutes.

 

And Rock is on the Mt Rushmore of characters.  It sounds like I'm dogging Rock, but I loved Rock, never really was a Cena fan, but I gotta be objective about it.

1 hour ago, Busch1724 said:

 

Easy, the exposure alone for the last 15 years from his movie career. The random pop ins during that time to promote a movie helped too. He was a money machine for the WWE. 

 

This and all the subsequent points. 

 

That's after his active career though and merging his impact after he became a movie star and wasnt really associated.  Rock is HUGE in Hollywood, but dont let that cloud the argument about WWE.  

 

And I get HHH is borderline based on that argument, but he's intimately involved in the company and a regular fixture still. 

Edited April 9, 2019 by justice98

[justice98]

All this talk about Cena and Rock, the guy that never gets mentioned is Bruno.  That's the real travesty.  I'm mad at myself for recency bias and leaving him out.  Bruno would get the 3rd slot and HHH gets 4 for the reasons I mentioned.  I would not have put HHH on there if not for NXT though.

Edited April 9, 2019 by justice98

[Mooka]

https://video.vice.com/en_us/show/dark-side-of-the-ring

 

Dark Side of the Ring, Wednesdays on Vice. 

 

First episode was about Macho Man and Elizabeth's relationship. Next episode is Hitman Hart and Montreal. Good stuff. 

 

 

[Sacks 'n' Stuff]

Arn Anderson or Ted Dibiase?

[spjunkies]

So, CM Punk kinda made his wrestling return if anyone cares.

 

 

[Gallen5862]

I liked last night on Raw that the WWE has brought back a milder version of the Hardcore belt called the 24/7 Belt. Mic Foley basically said the same thing about the belt when he introduced it lasyt night as when it was the Hardcore Belt. He said this belt is 24/7 that you have to want it 24/7 and its a way of life etc. He said the belt open to anyone on any of the rosters even international ones.As long as a ref is present the belt can change hands. Foley put it down in the Ring and the First to grab it was Titus Oneil the first 24/7 Champ. He was going up the Ramp when Robert Roode blindsided him and pinned him. Roode than was hiding rest of the night when R Truth offered to hid Roode in his car trunk. He got everyone to leave then opened the trunk and offered roode a ride. As Roode opened the passenger side door he sees a ref. He goes what is going on when Rtruth pins him and becomes the new Champ. Renee Young said this is crazy. I don't think she was there for the Hardcore days. R truth will be taking the belt to Smackdown.

[Mr. Sinister]

Hmm, I thought it was Hardcore Holly who made those rule initially..

[@DCGoldPants]

Read that the crowd wasn't feeling that not-quite hardcore belt. 

[Gallen5862]

8 hours ago, Mr. Sinister said:

Hmm, I thought it was Hardcore Holly who made those rule initially..

I think it was Hardcore Holly, Nic Foley was there last night to introduce the belt. I remember a few years ago when the Hardcore belt was retired and they had the last championship scramble consisting of all the former hardcore champions i including a couple female announcers who had held the title briefly when they jumped the champion at the interview. 

Did anyone watch the Money in the Bank pay per view and the several botched calls by the Refs? 

[VeroViper]

So did anyone else check out AEW's Double or Nothing this weekend? While it wasn't perfect(they need to work on some things production wise) it was one hell of a show. Cody Rhodes vs. Dustin Rhodes was better than it had any right being(and a real blood orgy). Young Bucks vs. Lucha Bros was everything great about tag team wrestling that WWE is not. Jon Moxley(aka Dean Ambrose) showed up at the end proceeding to kick everyone's ass and brawl with Kenny Omega. Shot fired, notice has been served. If you're a wrestling fan and have grown tired of the WWE product you may want to give these guys a try. They'll have a weekly show on TNT that I believe is starting this fall. I still enjoy the WWE product myself and I hope this will push them to improve as well. This could rival or maybe trump the old Monday NIght Wars. Either way we've been long overdue for some legitimate competition for WWE. 

[spjunkies]

I really hope these guys make it, the wwe has been unwatchable for a while now for me.

 

Edit: apparently AEW is going insane with copyright claims. I get that they want to make a profit, but they are killing their own free exposure. 

 

Edited May 29, 2019 by spjunkies

[TK]

Who did this?  

 

 

 

[Dont Taze Me Bro]

I got the AEW PPV, thought it was really good.  Loved that they got Jon Moxley (aka Dean Ambrose) on board.  Good ole JR being a commentator was huge too, imo.  

 

I think it has promise and could do some damage if they can poach some top tier talent from Vince.

Edited May 29, 2019 by Dont Taze Me Bro

[spjunkies]

8 hours ago, Dont Taze Me Bro said:

I got the AEW PPV, thought it was really good.  Loved that they got Jon Moxley (aka Dean Ambrose) on board.  Good ole JR being a commentator was huge too, imo.  

 

I think it has promise and could do some damage if they can poach some top tier talent from Vince.

 

They need to be very careful about who they get from wwe, don't want to become tna 2.0 with a bunch of WWE castoffs. 

[justice98]

On 5/27/2019 at 7:52 AM, VeroViper said:

So did anyone else check out AEW's Double or Nothing this weekend? While it wasn't perfect(they need to work on some things production wise) it was one hell of a show. Cody Rhodes vs. Dustin Rhodes was better than it had any right being(and a real blood orgy). Young Bucks vs. Lucha Bros was everything great about tag team wrestling that WWE is not. Jon Moxley(aka Dean Ambrose) showed up at the end proceeding to kick everyone's ass and brawl with Kenny Omega. Shot fired, notice has been served. If you're a wrestling fan and have grown tired of the WWE product you may want to give these guys a try. They'll have a weekly show on TNT that I believe is starting this fall. I still enjoy the WWE product myself and I hope this will push them to improve as well. This could rival or maybe trump the old Monday NIght Wars. Either way we've been long overdue for some legitimate competition for WWE. 

 

I thought it was a very entertaining show. How they do with a weekly show remains to be seen.  That's still gonna be a big question mark. But they're certainly off on the right foot.  

 

Coming off the buzz that AEW is generating, WWE came back with another lame episode of Raw, IMO.  SD was a little better, at least.  

[Forehead]

I'm not as up to date on wrestling anymore, but shouldn't the thread title be updated?  Aren't at least two of those promotions out of business?

[spjunkies]

35 minutes ago, Forehead said:

I'm not as up to date on wrestling anymore, but shouldn't the thread title be updated?  Aren't at least two of those promotions out of business?

 

Nope, all are still around but TNA is always on the brink of going under lol.

[Forehead]

6 minutes ago, spjunkies said:

 

Nope, all are still around but TNA is always on the brink of going under lol.

 

Oh weird, I thought WWE absorbed ECW years ago, and that TNA was gone.  I'm clearly out of touch.

[spjunkies]

1 minute ago, Forehead said:

 

Oh weird, I thought WWE absorbed ECW years ago, and that TNA was gone.  I'm clearly out of touch.

 

That's on me, I forgot that ECW was even in the subject yeah, that can go 🤣

[Sacks 'n' Stuff]

[VeroViper]

24 minutes ago, Forehead said:

 

Oh weird, I thought WWE absorbed ECW years ago, and that TNA was gone.  I'm clearly out of touch.

 

TNA goes by Impact now. They dropped the TNA over a year ago if I'm not mistaken. Not long after the Hardys left and Dixie Carter went away. So I could see why you would think they were gone. That company is the ****roach of the pro wrestling industry. They've seemingly been on the brink of folding so many times, problems paying the talent etc. But they always manage to survive.

[Dont Taze Me Bro]

3 hours ago, spjunkies said:

 

They need to be very careful about who they get from wwe, don't want to become tna 2.0 with a bunch of WWE castoffs. 

 

Yep, that's why I said Top Tier talent, otherwise, it will tank.  Joe Moxley was a great pickup.  And I read that he blasted Vince for the story lines and what he was having him do, etc. basically making him hate his job/character. 

 

Not sure how much those guys could make at AEW, but they do have billionaire backing which should help significantly if they can snag some top talent from the WWE when their contracts expire.  I think they are going to have to make some crazy offers to get a lot of them to jump ship though.  Kinda like when WCW was able to snag Hogan and Savage and then eventually Hall and Nash.

 

They will have to play it smart though, that type of plan also helped to destroy WCW, because they were paying out ridiculous salaries back then for both top talent and mid-card talent and it hurt them financially.  

 

I know he probably will never wrestle again, but I'd be pushing hard to get CM Punk there, in some capacity if they could.  That would be huge, given the hatred he has for WWE and Vince.  

[Mr. Sinister]

Having Turner at their back again is pretty big time. This isnt going away. I would def be trying to tap into that Japanese/Mexican pipeline too, if it still exists.