The Figure Four - ALL Things ECW-WWF-NJPW-TNA-ROH-AEW

[Lombardi's_kid_brother]

Old-school wrestlers would never have been in that situation, because they would have just bladed themselves.

I'm agnostic on blading. Personally, I like blood in wrestling, but in a world with Hep-C, I can see why you would want to severely limit it. And I don't think it's good for the product to have guys going on morning talk shows in HD with foreheads that look like Carlos Colon's.

At the same time, if you want blood, just freaking blade. How is that any more barbaric than having some monster elbow you in the head a dozen times?

I think you can find a reasonable middle ground here. Assuming that they can be fair, give every wrestler on the roster a choice: Are you willing to blade or not. Again, it's the WWE so their credibility is weak, but this has to be a policy where there is no punishment if you say no.

If you say yes, you are forbidden from doing it more than twice a year and it has to be at least three months apart. I don't want this at house shows. And I would say that only one match per card can have juice.

Also, if you are a yes, you have to be tested quarterly for a variety of things. Bob Orton bled all over the Undertaker a few years ago after a Hep-C diagnosis, I believe. That's unacceptable.

I think ECW has aged horribly, and only freaks who like parking lot wrestling want blood up and down the card. And even "respectable" promotions crossed the line all the time. Watch Starrcade '85 sometime. There is double juice in pretty much every match. It gets to be too much. (Also, if you watch the Tully-Magnum I quit match in isolation, it's amazing. In the middle of that slasher film of a card, it loses a lot of its impact).

But it's an incredibly effective storytelling technique, and I think it can still be used judiciously. Frankly, I would not let Cena do it. I think he is more valuable to the WWE doing Amy Schumer movies, and he's not going to get those if he is disfigured. But Kevin Owens? All fat guys in wrestling should bleed occasionally.

Question: Does the image of Stone Cold passing out in the stunner work as well if he is not bleeding?

Second question: If you booked an AJ-Brock match where it was basically 15 minutes of Brock destroying AJ with the occasional hope spot thrown in and ended it with a bloody, beaten, and exhausted AJ pulling out some sort of miracle win.....how big a star could you make him? Isn't that the easiest booking in the world?

 

[TK]

3 hours ago, justice98 said:

It'll be interesting to see what the endgame of all that was. Coming off a Lesnar thrashing,

Shane O Mac vs Brockkkkkkkk Lesnarrrrrrrrrr at WM. 

[TK]

2 hours ago, pjfootballer said:

Wouldn't hurt my feelings if Lesnar was dropped all together.  He's boring when he talks.  He's boring when he doesn't talk.  Coming in every three months brings nothing to the table.  Drop him (F5) for all I care.

"You want to talk about your kids? Come on in here & lets talk about your kids. I don't give a **** about your kids."

I didn't find that boring at all. Especially since Brock rarely speaks, its why he has Heyman with him.

[Mr. Sinister]

Speaking of blading, anyone remember Survivor Series '03? I thought Vince was going to bleed out there was so much red

[Lombardi's_kid_brother]

I think I've shared this before, but it was Georgia Championship Wrestling on "Channel 17" that got me into the sport. And one of my early memories is Mr. Westling II bleeding through his mask thanks to (I think) Assassin I, though it may have been Masked Superstar. I do think that all those old southern territories had way too much blood in general. Tommy Rich was going to age badly regardless of any outside forces, but having him slice his forehead open once a week did him no favors.

Jerry Lawler is absolutely fascinating to look at these days. 30 years of blading + 4 facelifts = remarkable forehead.

[Mr. Sinister]

I remember watching a vid about that Magnum TA and Tully Blanchard no holds barred match. Looked like a snuff film.

 

First Blood matches were rare from what I can remember from my days of watching, but one i do remember involved Stone Cold and the Undertaker (a lot of these crazy matches always seem to involve the Undertaker) in a First Blood Match, ending with (and I dunno if it was staged or not) Austin blasting Taker over the head with the biggest camera I've ever seen in my life. I remember the sound it made. I had the vhs from that opv and after the match they shiw him walking backstage and blood is just pouring from the top of his head.

[Lombardi's_kid_brother]

The Magnum-Tully I Quit match is maybe my favorite match ever. It helps that I watched the build-up to that feud every week for months though. I mean, by that point, it really felt like those two legitimately wanted to kill each other and the fact that babyface Magnum was basically about to jam a piece of wood in Tully's eye made all kinds of sense.

Come to think of it, my second favorite match is the Funk-Lawler empty arena match which ended with Funk screaming "My eye! My eye!"

Basically, I want matches to end with someone ramming a piece of wood into someone's eye. Yet, I don't like the bloodiest parts of ECW. Go figure.

(Actually, it's pretty easy to explain. In both those matches, the babyface was drawn to this awful place by the heel. At the end of both those matches, Lawler and Magnum look almost ashamed at what they did. The typical ECW match involved a babyface happily disfiguring himself, his opponent, and the occasional fan for ****s and giggles).

Tully: "Say it!"

Magnum: "No"

<Whack>

Tully: "Say it!"

Magnum: "No!"

<Whack>

 

[Mr. Sinister]

I was gonna say, what seprates ECW from probably every other big time promotion ever, is that at least 70% of those guys were legit psychopaths. Still dont know how Heyman managed to control them, then screw them all over and remain alive to this day

Edited August 26, 2016 by Mr. Sinister

[Lombardi's_kid_brother]

Heyman would be a good cult leader.

[DM72]

The Blanchard/Magnum I quit match is my all time favorite too.

[Lombardi's_kid_brother]

What are "things" that all wrestling fans should see before they die? (Note up front: I never got into Japanese wrestling so I am hopeless there).

1. The Flair/DiBiase/Murdoch episode of Mid South. Just the best booked hour of wrestling you will ever see with three of the all-time greats all doing their roles perfectly.

2. The Ole Anderson Big Turn promo. Again, just incredible booking all around and maybe the best heel promo ever. It's an incredibly long promo, but wrestlers never talked this long then so it was special. It's also pretty well edited for a tv show in 1980, cutting back and forth from the Omni riot to a Dusty promo from two years earlier. "It will never be ovah!"

3. Magnum-Tully I Quit

4. Lawler-Funk Empty Arena

5. The whole Lawler-Bockwinkle "no closed fist" saga.

6. Not just the Piper-Snuka Piper's Pit, but the blowoff match at MSG where Piper breaks Snuka's neck. Piper looked like an absolute animal in that match.

7. Piper-Valentine dog collar match.

8. Freebirds-Dibiase 5 piledrivers

9. The entire Hogan-Andre saga including all the Piper Pits leading up to it. (Piper, Ventura, and Heenan were so good in their roles at that point).

10. I'm not sure there is a definitive Freebirds-Von Erichs moment. Maybe the "Decency vs. Filth" promo.

11. Michael Hayes' Freebird introductory promo on Channel 17.

12. Wrestlerock Rumble video - palette cleanser

13. Bret-Austin

14. Flair-Steamboat leading into Terry Funk's attack on Flair.

15. 92 Royal Rumble

16. Hogan-Warrior

17. Steamboat-Savage

18. Piper-Bob Armstrong

19. Midnight Express-Fantastics Clash match

20. Flair-Sting Clash match

 

[pjfootballer]

1 hour ago, TK said:

"You want to talk about your kids? Come on in here & lets talk about your kids. I don't give a **** about your kids."

I didn't find that boring at all. Especially since Brock rarely speaks, its why he has Heyman with him.

Eh, cauliflower head doesn't move the needle for me.  I'd love to see Paul Heyman with someone that at least had a little more personality.

[Mr. Sinister]

 Bret/Austin is the only one of those that I can say I watched as it was happéning. Man Austin was such a pos :ols:, and people cheered him. Thats when you knew wrestling would never be the same again. And that submission match us in my top 10 all time.

 

Kinda crazy that that "do whatever you want  and we'll love you for it" love was so strong that he had to beat a woman senseless with a steel chair years later for people to finally boo him.

 

Not even aligning with his arch rival and the biggest wrestling heel in the biz could do it.

Edited August 26, 2016 by Mr. Sinister

[TK]

29 minutes ago, Lombardi's_kid_brother said:

(Note up front: I never got into Japanese wrestling so I am hopeless there).

Go try NJPW's Wrestle Kingdom 9. That's the one that got me hooked. It's basically their WM without all the celebrity crap & JR is on the English commentary.

To your list, off the top of my head, I'd add Benoit vs Booker T's best of 7 from 98 for the WCW TV Title 

[Lombardi's_kid_brother]

I've wanted to watch that Wrestle Kingdom show, but I also feel like a 42 year old with kids probably doesn't need to get hooked on Japanese wrestling. And I likely would be.

The fun thing with lists like this is realizing what you left off.

 

The Dangerous Alliance War Games match is so good. How often do you have a blood feud involving something like 12 people and everyone can work? (Except Nikita). And then Paul E is there to doing the talking. And Madusa is there to look hot. (And, frankly, at that point she could have out-worked half of Vince's roster). That feud is just everything I want in wrestling - violence, promos, good wrestling that doesn't look like ballet, and Bobby Eaton.

[The Evil Genius]

No Hardy Boys v Edge/Christian ladder match, LKB?

 

edit..and speaking of ladders, the HBK v Razor Ramon match in Wrestlemania 10 (?)...that was epic too. 

Edited August 26, 2016 by The Evil Genius

[Redskins Reparations]

I would have to include the following in a must see list.

One Night Stand:

Rob Van Dam vs. John Cena 

Wrestle Kingdom 9:

Nakamura vs. Ibushi

Living Dangerously:

Rob Van Dam vs. Jerry Lynn

Wrestle Mania 12:

Piper vs. Goldust (Hollywood Backlot Brawl)

 

[Mr. Sinister]

On 8/26/2016 at 5:09 PM, The Evil Genius said:

 

 

You know, for as good as the triangle ladder match and two tlc matches were, I remember there being a 4  team TLC match on Raw in Vegas when Bischoff took over (still one of the craziest moments for me). Awesome match. Guys were flying and falling everywhere

 

I also think one of the greatest Raw matches that I can remember was Taker vs Jeff Hardy (dont remember the year, but Take was still in his American Badass/"Big Evil" deal). It was so awesome seeing Taker go out of his element and bang with Jeff Hardy, but he sold it, and even though he kept the belt, Jeff Hardy in that moment was as over as I'd ever seen him in singles compétition, until he won the title several years later (which I did not witness because i was finished)

 

The Gdust Piper backlot brawl definitely is up there with one of the biggest wtf matches. Al Snow and Bossman in that weird cage surrounded by vicious dogs comes close, then the classic empty arena "Halftime Heat" match between Rock and Mankind (god I remember laughing so hard lol)

Edited August 28, 2016 by Mr. Sinister

[Sacks 'n' Stuff]

Foley going off the cell.

I was there for that one.

[justice98]

I remember hearing Dustin talk about how the Backlot brawl went down.  Apparently, they taped it weeks prior and a bunch of the spots didn't quite go as planned.  

[justice98]

On 8/26/2016 at 4:26 PM, Lombardi's_kid_brother said:

 

The Dangerous Alliance War Games match is so good. How often do you have a blood feud involving something like 12 people and everyone can work? (Except Nikita). And then Paul E is there to doing the talking. And Madusa is there to look hot. (And, frankly, at that point she could have out-worked half of Vince's roster). That feud is just everything I want in wrestling - violence, promos, good wrestling that doesn't look like ballet, and Bobby Eaton.

 

Speaking if War Games, Cody said recently that Dusty almost got War Games brought back, but somebody in WWE convinced people it wasn't a good idea because of the expensive seats you lose with the extra ring. When he had more stroke in WCW, he got them to go along with losing those same seats.

War Games is my favorite match concept of all time.  

The Horsemen were something like 1-14 all-time in War Games matches.  Most were house shows, and the one win was that one when Pillman got hurt.  But that Horsemen lineup was dubious, with Sid and Zbyszko.

[TK]

5 minutes ago, justice98 said:

 

Speaking if War Games, Cody said recently that Dusty almost got War Games brought back, but somebody in WWE convinced people it wasn't a good idea because of the expensive seats you lose with the extra ring. When he had more stroke in WCW, he got them to go along with losing those same seats.

Dusty told them to simply raise the ticket price to offset the extra ring space. War Games was so awesome that I'm afraid if Vince were to bring it back he'd **** it up the way he always does anything he personally didn't create. 

WCW did a throwaway match on the back of a tractor trailer. I don't even remember who was in it, it was so bad.

[Sacks 'n' Stuff]

Bring back war games. I've had 10 seconds to think about this and I've got three potential solutions to the problem of losing those seats. I can't imagine it'd be that hard to make up the difference.

[DM72]

On August 26, 2016 at 4:26 PM, Lombardi's_kid_brother said:

everyone can work? (Except Nikita). 

 

Watch it.

[TK]

2 hours ago, DM72 said:

 

Watch it.

What's "it"?