The Figure Four - ALL Things ECW-WWF-NJPW-TNA-ROH-AEW

[Lombardi's_kid_brother]

That is my favorite match of all time. That whole feud was epic.

 

That's barely a wrestling match. It's just two bloody dudes trying to stab each other's eyes out.

 

But it is awesome.

 

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x32jse_magnum-ta-vs-tully-blanchard-steel_sport

 

(This is dailymotion not youtube. Act accordingly).

 

You know what I miss from wrestling crowds? The high pitch squeals of the teenage girls at the very top of the register. Magnum is trying to legit murder a dude in the ring and it sounds like a Beatles concert. And Magnum wasn't anywhere in the vicinity of the Rock and Roll Express or Von Erichs.

 

I'm trying to find a good clip of Kerry Von Erich making out with teenage fans on the way to the ring in Dallas. What went on there was insane.

In summary, things I miss.

 

Devil worshippers

3 minute promos that got to the heart of the matter.

Dudes stabbing each other in the eye.

Bounties.

Calling someone a queer.

Calling someone a pedophile.

Getting smacked by a woman and liking it.

Passion.

Guys rhyming in their promos.

Guys who looked like Terry Gordy.

Crazy ass clothes.

Anger.

Intricate beatdowns where the fans want to riot.

Teenage girls in the stands going through puberty while an assault takes place in front of them.

Heels who liked being hated.

Talking about the title.

[Lombardi's_kid_brother]

This is actually a recent discovery for me, because I never saw the AWA until it was a shell of itself. And I was way outside Memphis.

 

But it is an incredible match, promo, and stipulation for the return match. Prime Bockwinkel might have been as good as Flair.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WL3LJMQmKpA

 

This is stuff you simply can't do anymore, because WWE doesn't even mention the word wrestling - aside from Wrestlemania weekend. The idea of a wrestler talking about his wrestling skill is unheard of today.

[LeesburgSkinFan]

I could watch Ernie Ladd promos all afternoon:

 

 

 

 

 

Edited May 15, 2015 by LeesburgSkinFan

[Lombardi's_kid_brother]

Ernie Ladd was ridiculously cool.

[BRAVEONTHEWARPATH93]

http://youtu.be/Ijq-DsAUEas

Good to know that Flair is/was a racist asshole. The rest I could see but Flair? That sucks

It does explain the build up to WM 19 tho...

[Sacks 'n' Stuff]

Anything good happen last night?

[Mr. Sinister]

Good to know that Flair is/was a racist asshole. The rest I could see but Flair? That sucks

It does explain the build up to WM 19 tho...

Hmm. Can't view the vid, but I remember another "incident" between him and Jerry Lawler on Raw a long time ago. He was with that Rodney Mack dude, and sat on set with Lawler and Jim Ross, and Lawler and him were going back and forth, then Long brought up something I cant remember, and Lawlers tone changed, and the convo gave off a shoot feel. Had something to do with Memphis politics.

At the very least, that was a worked shoot. It was very confusing

[BRAVEONTHEWARPATH93]

In the vid, Long recanted a story where Flair said to him, "N*****, you like working here?"

Basically flair was a Dick to him a lot. I googled Flair and racism and there are a lot of stories. That's really awkward

Long also told stories of being called that by Ole Anderson (surprise !!) and Bill Dundee

[Lombardi's_kid_brother]

Hmm. Can't view the vid, but I remember another "incident" between him and Jerry Lawler on Raw a long time ago. He was with that Rodney Mack dude, and sat on set with Lawler and Jim Ross, and Lawler and him were going back and forth, then Long brought up something I cant remember, and Lawlers tone changed, and the convo gave off a shoot feel. Had something to do with Memphis politics.

At the very least, that was a worked shoot. It was very confusing

 

I'm not defending Flair, because I 100 percent believe any story that involved bad behavior from Flair.

 

However, I've listened to a few interviews with Long, and he seems to think that race played a role in the fact that he didn't have any kind of noteworthy career until the Smackdown GM stuff he did. On the one hand, he is absolutely right that every territory basically had room for one black guy until the late 80s....and that kind of quota system carried into the 90s. On the other hand, he's Teddy Long. I'm not exactly sure what wrestling owed him.

 

To me, the one guy in wrestling who every wrestler, promoter, and fan from 1977 to today should have a benefit for and write a letter of apology to is Tony Atlas.

 

That dude couldn't talk a lick but was probably the most over wrestler in the world in the early 80s. He was on the bill of the first live wrestling event I ever went to in 80 or 81 and it was like a god from Mt Olympus had arrived. He had Hogan's natural charisma...without Hogan's ability to talk at all.

 

And if you go through youtube.....every Atlas feud started the exact same way. Tony gives a mush-mouth interview and in the middle, a heel shows up and calls Tony "boy." There are youtube clips of Hogan, Flair, Race, and every other top star of the 80s calling Tony Atlas "boy." It's good times.

 

That's it. Every time. That's all they had for him.

 

I can post youtube clips at work, but if you ever want to feel uncomfortable, pull up one of David Schultz's "I'm going to send you back to the cotton field" promos that he always cut on black wrestlers.

[BRAVEONTHEWARPATH93]

Anything good happen last night?

Main event was great but the finish was odd. Too much interference and Rollins pinned Orton after a pedigree which was really random

Cena vs Rusev was good but again, finish was stupid. Rusev yelled something in Russian while Cena had him in the STF so Lana screamed to the ref that he quits. Apparently he yelled I quit in Russian...or she just misunderstood him cuz he was pissed at her afterwards. It was really stupid since he's clearly can speak English and now, Cena has basically buried him

The rest of the show was pretty decent.

I'm not defending Flair, because I 100 percent believe any story that involved bad behavior from Flair.

However, I've listened to a few interviews with Long, and he seems to think that race played a role in the fact that he didn't have any kind of noteworthy career until the Smackdown GM stuff he did. On the one hand, he is absolutely right that every territory basically had room for one black guy until the late 80s....and that kind of quota system carried into the 90s. On the other hand, he's Teddy Long. I'm not exactly sure what wrestling owed him.

To me, the one guy in wrestling who every wrestler, promoter, and fan from 1977 to today should have a benefit for and write a letter of apology to is Tony Atlas.

That dude couldn't talk a lick but was probably the most over wrestler in the world in the early 80s. He was on the bill of the first live wrestling event I ever went to in 80 or 81 and it was like a god from Mt Olympus had arrived. He had Hogan's natural charisma...without Hogan's ability to talk at all.

And if you go through youtube.....every Atlas feud started the exact same way. Tony gives a mush-mouth interview and in the middle, a heel shows up and calls Tony "boy." There are youtube clips of Hogan, Flair, Race, and every other top star of the 80s calling Tony Atlas "boy." It's good times.

That's it. Every time. That's all they had for him.

I can post youtube clips at work, but if you ever want to feel uncomfortable, pull up one of David Schultz's "I'm going to send you back to the cotton field" promos that he always cut on black wrestlers.

Different times....yeesh

But the build up to WM19 for Trips vs Booker still pisses me off to this day. Why bring race into it when you have no plans on Booker winning?

Edited May 18, 2015 by BRAVEONTHEWARPATH93

[LeesburgSkinFan]

Here's an angle that effectively handled race and it's from 25 years ago:

 

 

<iframe width="420" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/Ypy9vNLALjE"frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

 

 

this is probably the best, most well-executed "shoot angle" in wrestling history. Even the CM Punk pipe bomb from the summer of '11 looked planned and organized compared to this:

 

 

- Dave Brown's understated, "We're doing an interview here" to start with. No McMahon-esque "WAIT A MINUTE, WHAT'S THIS?!"

 

 

- There are a bunch of unusual, little-used camera angles that really add to the feeling of chaos surrounding this. Cameras in the ring showing the interview set, some jump-cuts as Snowman is doubling back around the ring, etc.

 

 

- Eddie Marlin is FANTASTIC here. Everyone plays their roles great but I actually thought Marlin was the star of this segment.

 

 

- True "shades of gray," in a good way and not a Russo way. It's three guys all with a specific point of view trying to get it across and all of whom actually have valid points. Snowman is correct that racism is a problem for black wrestlers, and Marlin has a point that Memphis has pushed black wrestlers who've earned it, which Snowman hasn't done.

 

 

- Snowman looks like a guy who's both legitimately unhinged and would destroy Lawler, Brown, Marlin, and security singlehandedly. If there's one weakness to this segment it's the idea of him being successfully escorted out by anyone.

 

 

- The thing that makes great shoot angles like the Punk promo and this work: kayfabe is never broken once. It's all about title shots and winning championships, something that race can and does play a role in even in a legitimate sport. Not a single "insider" term is ever used by anyone.

 

 

- To the best of my knowledge, the story that Lawler tells of Snowman going to the local black paper the Tri-State Defender and black radio stations REALLY WAS a shoot, and Lawler & co. decided to bring in Snowman for the angle so as not to alienate their black fanbase (which was sizable as any look at the studio crowd will tell you). That type of authenticity can't be matched or scripted.

 

 

Absolutely out-of-the-box booking that had never been attempted anywhere and may not have really been attempted since.

 

[Lombardi's_kid_brother]

In the vid, Long recanted a story where Flair said to him, "N*****, you like working here?"

Basically flair was a Dick to him a lot. I googled Flair and racism and there are a lot of stories. That's really awkward

Long also told stories of being called that by Ole Anderson (surprise !!) and Bill Dundee

 

Bill Dundee I buy 1000 percent. Ole Anderson seems off, except for the simple fact that Ole seems to only speak in profanities and insults. I could see Ole using it inter-changebly with "dumb****" and every other word in his arsenal. Ole just seems to hate everyone equally.

 

Like all of those 70s and 80s promoters, Ole did have room for one black dude and his dude was most often Thunderbolt Patterson. Thy worked together a ton. I always found Patterson boring. Atlas did a fair amount of work in Georgia though. I think Ernie Ladd spent some time there in the 70s. JYD came in and basically re-did his whole Mid South program to lesser effect. I think JYD and Atlast overlapped at times, which was downright progressive....(and this was a tv show taped out of Atlanta).

 

The simple fact is, if you are going to go down the path of "race and pro wrestling," you are going to end up feeling really badly about humanity.

But the build up to WM19 for Trips vs Booker still pisses me off to this day. Why bring race into it when you have no plans on Booker winning?

 

Honestly, I'm convinced that every negative thing that people think about HHH comes from that program. It was one of the most tone-deaf angles ever.

[BRAVEONTHEWARPATH93]

Yeah. I only listened to that video cuz I was bored at work.

Also, remember Cryme Tyme? That was a legit thing not too long ago smh lol

Back on a neutral topic, LKB...I've been watching old nwa over the weekend and I have one question: was Luger ever over?

He seems like Randy Orton lite. Elite physically but the most boring human to ever grace a ring

[Lombardi's_kid_brother]

Yeah. I only listened to that video cuz I was bored at work.

Also, remember Cryme Tyme? That was a legit thing not too long ago smh lol

Back on a neutral topic, LKB...I've been watching old nwa over the weekend and I have one question: was Luger ever over?

He seems like Randy Orton lite. Elite physically but the most boring human to ever grace a ring

 

It depends on what you mean by over. Luger was seen by fans as a legit top guy in every promotion he's ever been in since he debuted in Florida. When he came to Crockett, he immediately became the US champion and a Horseman and everyone saw him as the future. I think the issue with him is that I just don't think fans ever bought him as the #1 guy...and if you look like him you kind of have to be the #1 guy.

 

Luger's entire career was basically the next world champion except no one ever wanted to see him be champion. And then after a while, you started asking "Why has this guy never been champion?"

 

Four times Luger was over:

 

1. When he left the Horsemen. But he was only two or three years into his career and there is no way they were giving him the belt at that point. So, at the end of that feud, he was basically the same guy. Luger's whole career was basically running in place.

 

2. At some point in the middle of the goofy Lex Express nonsense in WWF, I think he actually started to get over. I think the fans actually started to buy him as the next Hogan. And then Vince had one of his whimsical changes of heart and that was that. This really cemented Luger as the guy who could never win the title. Not that anyone wanted him to win the title.

 

3. The Sting/Luger tag title run in pre-NWO WCW. Luger was a big enough star that coming back on the first live Nitro was huge. But he was still Luger and kind of got shoved into the Dungeon of Doom for no apparent reason. The angle they came up with where he was a heel...yet still Sting's best friend was fantastic. Sting was the one guy in wrestling history who you could buy not noticing that his partner is hitting people with brass knuckles and rolls of quarters and such. That dynamic was fun and was going to lead to a great blow-off at some point when the NWO showed up and turned Luger de facto face, killing his momentum again.

 

4. The leadup to the title win over Hogan. I don't exactly know how it happened, but Luger was the most over he ever was in his life in '97. That pop he got for beating Hogan was at Steve Austin levels. But once again, it was timing. The money match was Hogan-Sting and they had to get the title off him. I'm not sure he could have carried the title that long anyway.

Here's a long article on that Lawler-Snowman feud.

 

http://placetobenation.com/the-story-of-jerry-lawler-and-the-snowman/

 

In some ways, this is why Lawler might be the greatest wrestler ever. No one has ever had to do what he did - sell out the same large building every week for 20 years. He got what? Six main events out of the freaking Snowman?

Edited May 18, 2015 by Lombardi's_kid_brother

[BRAVEONTHEWARPATH93]

Ok

I always go back and look him and think "Ok he has muscles but that's it"

I watched WCW when I was 6-7 (98-99) and I felt the same then

But anyways I'm going through 1990 which is around the time Vader debuted. He's probably my favorite big guy from before my time

[Mr. Sinister]

Honestly, I'm convinced that every negative thing that people think about HHH comes from that program. It was one of the most tone-deaf angles ever.

Some of the first boards I ever visited were pro wrestling boards, and it was around that time that HHH started that ridiculously long title run in '02. And the Katie Vick stuff with Kane started to grease the wheels. People were talking **** then, and thought he was an ass. It all came to a head and was cemented once all that crap with Booker T happened at WrestleMania though. That was the point of no return.

All wrestling fans took one the chin that night. And the buildup was some of the most disgraceful **** I'd ever seen

[TK]

Anything good happen last night?

Tyson Kidd & Cesaro vs New Day Sucks. Kidd & Cesaro put in a clinic in that 2 out of 3 falls match. Saw the Freebird Rules substitute the guy not in the first match into the second match coming a mile away. What I didn't expect was for the ref to actually not allow it.

Also, Cena had to have been pissed. Russev put him through at least two tables. Neither table broke. Saw the Lana quiting for him coming a mile away as well though I expected her to have done it right after the pyro spot.

Laughed my ass off when Axel came out with n the red & yellow with the Hogan mustache, blond wig & feather boas. Laughed harder as JBL buried Axel & Sandiw on commentary.

[Gallen5862]

Rusev if he was smart would come out during the John Cena US Open challenge for the United States title. He could claim that he never said the words "I Quit"  if Cena tries to say that he had given him his last chance last night.

[Lombardi's_kid_brother]

Ok

I always go back and look him and think "Ok he has muscles but that's it"

I watched WCW when I was 6-7 (98-99) and I felt the same then

But anyways I'm going through 1990 which is around the time Vader debuted. He's probably my favorite big guy from before my time

 

He was never great, but he was never so bad that you would get rid of him (he was than capable of being carried to great matches and looked like that).

 

Like I said, he spent fifteen years basically in the same exact spot. Secondary title holder/#2 heel/believe world champion at some point.

[The Evil Genius]

Not sure if it was keyfabe, but I always heard that Luger too often injured people with the torture rack. 

 

Plus the dude just looked weird. 

[Lombardi's_kid_brother]

Not sure if it was keyfabe, but I always heard that Luger too often injured people with the torture rack. 

 

Plus the dude just looked weird. 

 

You may be confusing him with Ahmed Johnson. Ahmed hurt everyone he worked with.

 

Mabel was really dangerous too.

 

Goldberg wasn't exactly safe in the ring as Bret Hart can attest.

[Mr. Sinister]

Poor Bret. Last time i saw him he looked like he was about 75. I guess all that tough Canadian upbringing, plus dealing with all the grief and death in his family/circle of friends, plus Goldbergs Johnny Cage shadow kick, can really do a number on your appearance.

[TK]

Flexy Lexy was so "ehh" that it took Sting having to convince Bischoff to hire him after he left Vince.

[DM72]

I'm not defending Flair, because I 100 percent believe any story that involved bad behavior from Flair.

 

However, I've listened to a few interviews with Long, and he seems to think that race played a role in the fact that he didn't have any kind of noteworthy career until the Smackdown GM stuff he did. On the one hand, he is absolutely right that every territory basically had room for one black guy until the late 80s....and that kind of quota system carried into the 90s. On the other hand, he's Teddy Long. I'm not exactly sure what wrestling owed him.

 

To me, the one guy in wrestling who every wrestler, promoter, and fan from 1977 to today should have a benefit for and write a letter of apology to is Tony Atlas.

 

That dude couldn't talk a lick but was probably the most over wrestler in the world in the early 80s. He was on the bill of the first live wrestling event I ever went to in 80 or 81 and it was like a god from Mt Olympus had arrived. He had Hogan's natural charisma...without Hogan's ability to talk at all.

 

And if you go through youtube.....every Atlas feud started the exact same way. Tony gives a mush-mouth interview and in the middle, a heel shows up and calls Tony "boy." There are youtube clips of Hogan, Flair, Race, and every other top star of the 80s calling Tony Atlas "boy." It's good times.

 

That's it. Every time. That's all they had for him.

 

I can post youtube clips at work, but if you ever want to feel uncomfortable, pull up one of David Schultz's "I'm going to send you back to the cotton field" promos that he always cut on black wrestlers.

Because he had that $Million physique.

[BRAVEONTHEWARPATH93]

Poor Bret. Last time i saw him he looked like he was about 75. I guess all that tough Canadian upbringing, plus dealing with all the grief and death in his family/circle of friends, plus Goldbergs Johnny Cage shadow kick, can really do a number on your appearance.

 

I always got the vibe that living under Stu Hart was hell