The Bruce Allen/GM Thread

[Wildbunny]

20 hours ago, AlvinWaltonIsMyBoy said:

Seriously though, I think Bruce deserves credit for making the most of a bad situation.  Not saying he didn't bungle the Kirk deal from jump street, but after everyone knew he wasn't gonna sign here we could've ended up in a lot worse situation.  I'm disappointed we let Fuller go (even though we had to add a piece to outbid other suitors), but sometimes you gotta break some eggs to make an omelet.  Or in Bruce's case, a couple dozen.

 

 

I won't absolve him right now. OK he's not looking that bad right now, because Alex Smith looks pretty, but there's still a few things to keep in mind:

- He was mostly responsible for that situation, so at best he got himself out of the hole he dig.

- He still depends on how Jay and Alex performs on the field next season. It doesn't matter if you get Smith. If Kirk wents on to the Superbowl with the Vikes and wins it, Fuller is looking like a Pro Bowler and you barely reach 8-8, you'll look like an ass for getting rid of those two.

 

So jury's still out.

[TK]

7 hours ago, PF Chang said:

Also we're back to Cousins being all about the money even though he didn't take the biggest contract he was offered in FA. 

Actually he did. After taxes.

[RandyHolt]

Why do I hear that we are tipping our draft day hand?

 

Oh i know, it's probably just a smoke screen to get who we really want.

[Dissident2]

On 3/19/2018 at 9:26 PM, Califan007 said:

 

Guess I'm tired of the passive-aggressive shots each side feels is needed. And how many times does "well-led" need to be said lol...

 

Dad: "Kirk was looking for a team that was well-led. We both feel that a well-led team would be a perfect fit. The Vikings are well-led, so while looking for a well-led franchise we narrowed down all the well-led teams and decided that the Vikings were indeed well-led."

 

 

It needs to be said over and over and over again. This quote pretty much lays out exactly what many have been assuming about Cousins' issues with the team, that they're predominantly related to the horrible way it's run and the general toxic environment that oozes from the top down, of which we've seen a multitude of examples over the years. 

 

That was probably Kirk's Dad's one chance to get quoted in an interview. He took it and drove his point home hard, lol. I love it and hate it at the same time. 

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

12 minutes ago, Dissident2 said:

That was probably Kirk's Dad's one chance to get quoted in an interview. He took it and drove his point home hard, lol. I love it and hate it at the same time. 

Right, I totally get why Redskins fans don't like him saying that.  But to cite my example from before, I don't like being called fat, but that doesn't mean I don't need to lose 50lbs.

[KDawg]

11 hours ago, TK said:

Actually he did. After taxes.

 

This is funny and true and the same time. Dude went for the biggest guarantee, but not the maximum money. Still, he took the most immediate money on the table and the shorter deal so he can get more max money.

 

i don’t dislike him for that, by the way. Or at all, really. I wish he’d move on and stop going RG3 on ya. But other than that, he made a sound business decision for him

and his family. Good QB that made a business decision. No issues there.

 

just some of the narratives are driving me nuts. “Bad supporting cast for three seasons and he still threw for 4K” and “he didn’t even take the most money” are the two that are scraping my shins the most

[Skinsinparadise]

Cooley-Sheehan talking the subject this morning.  Cooley maybe the only media guy who owns up to knowing and liking Bruce -- so I take him a little seriously on the subject though granted he unlikely knows it all as for what goes down with the FO.

 

Cooley more or less plays off of Hoffman's point about Bruce isn't demoting himself. Cooley goes Bruce isn't giving up that power to someone else.  He goes I wouldn't, would you?   For that to happen it would have to come from Dan.  Bruce has the power and he's not giving it up.  So either deal with it and like it or don't. 

 

So that more or less plays off of Hoffman's point the other day which is people should stop with this have a real football guy run the operations because its not on the table.   As long as Bruce is here, the idea of a real football guy will end up being just like Scot was and that is a scout with a fancy title.  Now, Hoffman explains it in a way where that's not so bad because Bruce has good scouts working under him. 

 

To sum it up Florio after Scot was canned thought Bruce wouldn't put himself in the line of fire and instead keep things cushy for himself by hiring someone else and putting their neck on the line versus his own.  Florio was wrong.  Bruce wants to be the captain of the ship and is willing to sink or swim as the guy in charge.

 

None of it surprises me.  Makes sense.  Sheehan-Cooley speculated this is the ultimate sink or swim season for Bruce.

[TD_washingtonredskins]

34 minutes ago, KDawg said:

 

This is funny and true and the same time. Dude went for the biggest guarantee, but not the maximum money. Still, he took the most immediate money on the table and the shorter deal so he can get more max money.

 

i don’t dislike him for that, by the way. Or at all, really. I wish he’d move on and stop going RG3 on ya. But other than that, he made a sound business decision for him

and his family. Good QB that made a business decision. No issues there.

 

just some of the narratives are driving me nuts. “Bad supporting cast for three seasons and he still threw for 4K” and “he didn’t even take the most money” are the two that are scraping my shins the most

I'd respect how well Cousins played the game to get to this point (and did for a time) if he didn't try to have his cake and eat it too. If he hadn't acted like the wide-eyed Michigan boy who simply wanted to play some ball and honor God, his money move wouldn't rub me the wrong way. He ended up signing a deal that may have changed contracts in the NFL (at least for some players)...that's pretty cool, but I'd rather he have been more forthcoming with wanting to make that mark. 

[SkinFanInMinn]

32 minutes ago, TD_washingtonredskins said:

I'd respect how well Cousins played the game to get to this point (and did for a time) if he didn't try to have his cake and eat it too. If he hadn't acted like the wide-eyed Michigan boy who simply wanted to play some ball and honor God, his money move wouldn't rub me the wrong way. He ended up signing a deal that may have changed contracts in the NFL (at least for some players)...that's pretty cool, but I'd rather he have been more forthcoming with wanting to make that mark. 

It seems to me that it might be more the agent's idea than Kirk's.  Doesn't mean he wasn't complicit but from the quotes I've seen, it was the agent really pushing for him to set the new mark.  He probably has more interest in fully guaranteed contracts than does Kirk given that he'll probably still be in the agent game after Kirk retires.

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

1 hour ago, TD_washingtonredskins said:

but I'd rather he have been more forthcoming with wanting to make that mark. 

People say that now, but I'm not sure that would go over too well.  I have no doubts that those conversations took place between McCartney/Kirk and Bruce already.  It's rather well documented that there was a large space between what McCartney and Kirk believed his value was versus what Bruce and the FO did.  None of this really became clear to the public until July of last year, before the start of camp.  I'm not sure that's the best time to let the world know that this is probably going to be his last year as a Skin.  If you recall Bruce's infamous press release, he indicated that signing Cousins long term was still the ultimate goal.  Just like Kirk left the door wide open for a return.  Both parties really had no choice but to at least play along given the timing.  While some like to point to McCartney's statement about a 2.5 year plan to reach free agency, it misses what started that 'plan' and the milestones in between.  By the sounds of it, it sounds like the start of that plan begun when the Redskins failed to respond to McCartney's offer after they placed the franchise tag in the winter of 2016.  I highly doubt that wasn't communicated to Bruce/Scot, hence why Scot was apparently ready to trade Kirk last offseason. 

[TD_washingtonredskins]

6 minutes ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

People say that now, but I'm not sure that would go over too well.  I have no doubts that those conversations took place between McCartney/Kirk and Bruce already.  It's rather well documented that there was a large space between what McCartney and Kirk believed his value was versus what Bruce and the FO did.  None of this really became clear to the public until July of last year, before the start of camp.  I'm not sure that's the best time to let the world know that this is probably going to be his last year as a Skin.  If you recall Bruce's infamous press release, he indicated that signing Cousins long term was still the ultimate goal.  Just like Kirk left the door wide open for a return.  Both parties really had no choice but to at least play along given the timing.  While some like to point to McCartney's statement about a 2.5 year plan to reach free agency, it misses what started that 'plan' and the milestones in between.  By the sounds of it, it sounds like the start of that plan begun when the Redskins failed to respond to McCartney's offer after they placed the franchise tag in the winter of 2016.  I highly doubt that wasn't communicated to Bruce/Scot, hence why Scot was apparently ready to trade Kirk last offseason. 

 

Good post...I don't agree that it wouldn't have been received well. I do, however, think I'm being slightly unfair if this was truly his goal. His honesty would have prevented it from happening as he would have been traded away if the Redskins truly knew his intentions. 

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

3 minutes ago, TD_washingtonredskins said:

His honesty would have prevented it from happening as he would have been traded away if the Redskins truly knew his intentions. 

I guess I just find it very hard to believe that Bruce got duped by Cousins and McCartney.  What we know vs. what they talk about amongst themselves are two different things.  I'm still very skeptical of the Kirk/Dan conversation from last offseason where Kirk indicated he was "just seeing where they were at".  Seeing where they were at could mean a lot of things.  The timing of it was right when things were heating up about Kyle coming for him, as well as the Browns.  Then we were met with reports that the team wouldn't even entertain trade offers for Kirk.  A few months later is when they actually made the offer that folks are up in arms about Kirk not countering.  By that time, Kirk probably did have his heels dug in about testing FA but also wanted to keep the door open because maybe things would get better.  It became rather obvious though after Thompson went down, things weren't going to get any better.  The team kind of doubled down on that with the infamous Sunday morning leak to Rappaport of 'not so fast, Skins still need to see more from Kirk'.  I look at Kirk's town hall thingy like a farewell to the fans.  I know a lot of folks were wringing out the last bit of hope that he could stay, but it was clear as day to me that it wasn't happening.

[OVCChairman]

14 minutes ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

People say that now, but I'm not sure that would go over too well.  I have no doubts that those conversations took place between McCartney/Kirk and Bruce already.  It's rather well documented that there was a large space between what McCartney and Kirk believed his value was versus what Bruce and the FO did.  None of this really became clear to the public until July of last year, before the start of camp.  I'm not sure that's the best time to let the world know that this is probably going to be his last year as a Skin.  If you recall Bruce's infamous press release, he indicated that signing Cousins long term was still the ultimate goal.  Just like Kirk left the door wide open for a return.  Both parties really had no choice but to at least play along given the timing.  While some like to point to McCartney's statement about a 2.5 year plan to reach free agency, it misses what started that 'plan' and the milestones in between.  By the sounds of it, it sounds like the start of that plan begun when the Redskins failed to respond to McCartney's offer after they placed the franchise tag in the winter of 2016.  I highly doubt that wasn't communicated to Bruce/Scot, hence why Scot was apparently ready to trade Kirk last offseason. 

It is 100% a lose-lose situation.  Fan's are going to be upset any time a player of his caliber determines he does not want to play for the franchise... regardless of the 'blame' for the breakup.   He can't come out and say "Chances are I'm not coming back" because then the door is shut.  The jersey sales go down, the booing starts at camp and at the stadium, the locker room becomes divided, and he's forever remembered as any number of derogatory nicknames.  The struggle is the excessive comments regarding his career here, how much he wants to be here because he met his wife here, his trainers are here, his kid was born here... all the minutia added to the conversation instead of the transparency.  It would have been very simple to say "It's a very limited number of opportunities to be and NFL QB and I respect that.  To play for the Redskins or any team is a privilege and I of course would love to remain here."   Simple, clean, and easy.  He made it personal when he started talking about how being here is personal.  Wanting to feel wanted... Everyone wants to feel wanted.   Guess what... we as fans want our team to be wanted.  We want our QB to WANT to be here and nowhere else, just as much as he wants a team to WANT him and nobody else.... 

[PF Chang]

13 hours ago, TK said:

Actually he did. After taxes.

 

Touche. I'm still not buying the Cousins greed narrative that's used as an excuse for the team's mistakes, but that is fair.

 

Part of the reasoning for the 3 year deal is the CBA expires after the 2020 season. I saw you called the fully guaranteed contract a while ago. Post 2020 negotiations should be interesting. 

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

11 minutes ago, OVCChairman said:

The struggle is the excessive comments regarding his career here, how much he wants to be here because he met his wife here, his trainers are here, his kid was born here... all the minutia added to the conversation instead of the transparency.  It would have been very simple to say "It's a very limited number of opportunities to be and NFL QB and I respect that.  To play for the Redskins or any team is a privilege and I of course would love to remain here."   Simple, clean, and easy.  He made it personal when he started talking about how being here is personal. 

I don't believe all that stuff isn't true though.  It's pretty clear the guy does his homework and that's unfortunate for us.  We had to draft the one guy who looks up to Fortune 500 execs and is marveled by success and how folks become successful.  Sure, many players do that about great players, but Cousins does that about great people in general.  It's not hard to see how he would identify the vast difference between what goes on in Ashburn vs. places that are actually successful.  All of that though doesn't mean that he didn't see the value in playing in one place his entire career, how the DC area can be better from a marketing standpoint, and that he values the relationships he built here over six years.  I'm sure the position he was in is one that is like a see saw.  At the end of the day it was really up to Bruce to manage this relationship and sell him on the positives I just listed not with words but by actions.  I think it's pretty clear that didn't happen and here we are today.

 

I don't say all that to say the guy is a saint by any stretch.  I don't know him.  But I just find it crazy that the pastors son, aw shucks kid from Michigan with no track record of being a greedy dick is the bad guy vs. that of Bruce Allen who was nicknamed the Prince of Darkness in his last stint.  One guy brushes his teeth with Coors light to wake up and the other is reading books about Steve Jobs over a meal of egg whites and electrolytes after he wakes up out of his sleep chamber to preserve his body.  I don't expect everyone to care about all that, in fact - I don't really.  But it's still perplexing to me that Kirk is made out to be this greedy, con-man bad guy that duped over poor Bruce Allen and the fans.

[OVCChairman]

1 minute ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

 

I don't say all that to say the guy is a saint by any stretch.  I don't know him.  But I just find it crazy that the pastors son, aw shucks kid from Michigan with no track record of being a greedy dick is the bad guy vs. that of Bruce Allen who was nicknamed the Prince of Darkness in his last stint.  One guy brushes his teeth with Coors light to wake up and the other is reading books about Steve Jobs over a meal of egg whites and electrolytes after he wakes up out of his sleep chamber to preserve his body.  I don't expect everyone to care about all that, in fact - I don't really.  But it's still perplexing to me that Kirk is made out to be this greedy, con-man bad guy that duped over poor Bruce Allen and the fans.

 

 

I'm with you, and let me make it clear that I don't begrudge or blame Kirk one bit for the decisions he made.  

 

That said, we were sold that RG3 was a military child who had great moral values and was a very respectful and upstanding citizen.  Since then he's had his pregnant wife (at the time) find out via social media that he was dating another woman, gotten a divorce, gotten another woman pregnant out of wedlock, and now gotten married to that woman.  His personal life is truly none of my business, so what he does as a person shouldn't effect his contract (unless it's unlawful) but that goes both ways.  Public image only buys so much benefit of the doubt.  Like you said, you don't know him, nor do I... and I'm not saying Kirk is the same as RG3, because I honestly don't know, but we've seen very recently a player come through the locker room where a guys 'character' would never fall into question... until it did.  

[TD_washingtonredskins]

1 hour ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

I guess I just find it very hard to believe that Bruce got duped by Cousins and McCartney.  What we know vs. what they talk about amongst themselves are two different things.  I'm still very skeptical of the Kirk/Dan conversation from last offseason where Kirk indicated he was "just seeing where they were at".  Seeing where they were at could mean a lot of things.  The timing of it was right when things were heating up about Kyle coming for him, as well as the Browns.  Then we were met with reports that the team wouldn't even entertain trade offers for Kirk.  A few months later is when they actually made the offer that folks are up in arms about Kirk not countering.  By that time, Kirk probably did have his heels dug in about testing FA but also wanted to keep the door open because maybe things would get better.  It became rather obvious though after Thompson went down, things weren't going to get any better.  The team kind of doubled down on that with the infamous Sunday morning leak to Rappaport of 'not so fast, Skins still need to see more from Kirk'.  I look at Kirk's town hall thingy like a farewell to the fans.  I know a lot of folks were wringing out the last bit of hope that he could stay, but it was clear as day to me that it wasn't happening.

 

Do you mean that our management has known KC's intentions for the past couple years? If so, then they grossly mishandled things. The only shred of hope I had that they were partially competent was that they were holding onto him because they were taking him at his word. If they knew he was walking after 2017, then they should have traded him in 2016. Ugh. 

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

1 minute ago, TD_washingtonredskins said:

 

Do you mean that our management has known KC's intentions for the past couple years?

Ultimately, yes.  I just find it very hard to believe that given all we know about what's transpired over the years, that Kirk and his agent disguised themselves all this time to the powers that be.  It's been pretty well documented by those close to Redskins Park that the relationship between Bruce and McCartney is not a good one.  I'd venture a guess that the team not responding to their offer in the winter of 2016 set all that into motion.  Like I also said, I don't believe that they were 100% certain to hit free agency, that they were also willing to see how things played out down the road.  Never say never, so to speak.  But obviously things didn't get any better on the field or off of it.

 

5 minutes ago, TD_washingtonredskins said:

If so, then they grossly mishandled things. The only shred of hope I had that they were partially competent was that they were holding onto him because they were taking him at his word. If they knew he was walking after 2017, then they should have traded him in 2016. Ugh. 

One tidbit that's never left my mind was shortly after Scot got canned, Chick Hernandez's tweet "Kirk Cousins camp indicates that he will never negotiate a long term deal in Washington if Bruce Allen is still team president."  He deleted that tweet shortly thereafter.  But I never thought it came from nowhere and always thought it meant something.  Chick even doubled down on it's legitimacy the night of the Alex Smith trade.  If Kirk's camp was willing to relay that to Chick, I find it very hard to believe that the Redskins themselves were caught off guard by it.

[SkinFanInMinn]

And on the lighter side...

 

do we know the new marriage is in trouble when Bruce starts referring to our new QB as Aleck Smith?

[Spearfeather]

5 hours ago, Dissident2 said:

 

It needs to be said over and over and over again.

 

Why ?

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

1 hour ago, SkinFanInMinn said:

And on the lighter side...

 

do we know the new marriage is in trouble when Bruce starts referring to our new QB as Aleck Smith?

I'd say he's not going to do that given how much money he just paid the guy.  But he did that to Kirk after paying him over 50M, so who knows?

[Spearfeather]

Jordy Nelson's going to love having Derek Cah throwing to him this year.

 

Or, so says the good people of Boston.

[Wildbunny]

7 hours ago, KDawg said:

 

This is funny and true and the same time. Dude went for the biggest guarantee, but not the maximum money. Still, he took the most immediate money on the table and the shorter deal so he can get more max money.

 

i don’t dislike him for that, by the way. Or at all, really. I wish he’d move on and stop going RG3 on ya. But other than that, he made a sound business decision for him

and his family. Good QB that made a business decision. No issues there.

 

just some of the narratives are driving me nuts. “Bad supporting cast for three seasons and he still threw for 4K” and “he didn’t even take the most money” are the two that are scraping my shins the most

I find the whole story interesting, because Kirk is finally showing guys how to beat the system, and will force owner work on this.

 

Now, I don't care much about what he's saying. If he was coming from the Browns, everyone would laugh at them. And almost every critics he's doing, we're doing the same around here.

 

So that's mostly nothing new, nothing to drive me nuts. I know all of that. Guy moved on from us, I've moved on from him.

 

6 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

Cooley-Sheehan talking the subject this morning.  Cooley maybe the only media guy who owns up to knowing and liking Bruce -- so I take him a little seriously on the subject though granted he unlikely knows it all as for what goes down with the FO.

 

Cooley more or less plays off of Hoffman's point about Bruce isn't demoting himself. Cooley goes Bruce isn't giving up that power to someone else.  He goes I wouldn't, would you?   For that to happen it would have to come from Dan.  Bruce has the power and he's not giving it up.  So either deal with it and like it or don't. 

 

So that more or less plays off of Hoffman's point the other day which is people should stop with this have a real football guy run the operations because its not on the table.   As long as Bruce is here, the idea of a real football guy will end up being just like Scot was and that is a scout with a fancy title.  Now, Hoffman explains it in a way where that's not so bad because Bruce has good scouts working under him. 

 

To sum it up Florio after Scot was canned thought Bruce wouldn't put himself in the line of fire and instead keep things cushy for himself by hiring someone else and putting their neck on the line versus his own.  Florio was wrong.  Bruce wants to be the captain of the ship and is willing to sink or swim as the guy in charge.

 

None of it surprises me.  Makes sense.  Sheehan-Cooley speculated this is the ultimate sink or swim season for Bruce.

 

Well for as much as I'love Bruce to get the axe, I feel like Jay will saves his boss' ass one year or two.

Disliking Jay would put me in a better situation as I could hope for both of them to fail, so I could get rid of both of them.

 

Still, I believe Jay's a good coach and could do wonders with better support. He'll work his ass off to finish around the 8-8 mark, and Bruce will stay around...

 

Dan will get rid of both at the same time. I just don't see him canning Bruce and keeping Jay around. Not his style.

[Skinsinparadise]

1 minute ago, Wildbunny said:

 

Well for as much as I'love Bruce to get the axe, I feel like Jay will saves his boss' ass one year or two.

Disliking Jay would put me in a better situation as I could hope for both of them to fail, so I could get rid of both of them.

 

Still, I believe Jay's a good coach and could do wonders with better support. He'll work his ass off to finish around the 8-8 mark, and Bruce will stay around...

 

Dan will get rid of both at the same time. I just don't see him canning Bruce and keeping Jay around. Not his style.

 

I am with you.  

 

On reflex I can never root for the team to fail even like in this case it likely costs Bruce's job.  Lose the battle to win the war, etc.  I just don't have that in me.  So I am always rooting for success.  And in this case, I agree if Bruce gets canned Jay is likely collateral damage.  And I don't like that.

 

 

[Lombardi's_kid_brother]

7 hours ago, TD_washingtonredskins said:

I'd respect how well Cousins played the game to get to this point (and did for a time) if he didn't try to have his cake and eat it too. If he hadn't acted like the wide-eyed Michigan boy who simply wanted to play some ball and honor God, his money move wouldn't rub me the wrong way. He ended up signing a deal that may have changed contracts in the NFL (at least for some players)...that's pretty cool, but I'd rather he have been more forthcoming with wanting to make that mark. 

 

I don't think it was ever denied that Kirk wanted to make all the money. And once he played under the second tag, it was pretty obvious what he had played himself into.

 

No one is going to say, "I'm going to change how the NFL does contracts," because that would be suicide in a negotiation. But I've been explaining exactly how this was all going to play out as soon as I realized that Kirk was thrilled to play one year under the tag.

 

Last year, before he signed the second tender, I said that the Skins starting point had to be $75 million guaranteed. A year later, Kirk signed for $82 guaranteed.

 

WHEN WILL YOU PEOPLE ACCEPT THE FACT THAT I KNOW EVERYTHING?!?!?!?!