NY Times - Back to the Center, Democrats

[grego]

https://mobile.nytimes.com/2017/07/06/opinion/center-democrats-identity-politics.html?referer=https://www.google.com/

 

"The path back to power for the Democratic Party today, as it was in the 1990s, is unquestionably to move to the center and reject the siren calls of the left, whose policies and ideas have weakened the party.... 

 

... But the last few years of the Obama administration and the 2016 primary season once again created a rush to the left. Identity politics, class warfare and big government all made comebacks. Candidates inspired by Senator Bernie Sanders, Senator Elizabeth Warren and a host of well-funded groups have embraced sharply leftist ideas. But the results at the voting booth have been anything but positive: Democrats lost over 1,000 legislative seats across the country and control of both houses of Congress during the Obama years. And in special elections for Congress this year, they failed to take back any seats held by Republicans.

Central to the Democrats’ diminishment has been their loss of support among working-class voters, who feel abandoned by the party’s shift away from moderate positions on trade and immigration, from backing police and tough anti-crime measures, from trying to restore manufacturing jobs. They saw the party being mired too often in political correctness, transgender bathroom issues and policies offering more help to undocumented immigrants than to the heartland."

 

 

More at link. 

 

 

[twa]

They will go left 

 

Gonna be fun with talk of single payer and such when ya can't even pass it in Cali. 

[redskinss]

Sounds about right to me.

[Kilmer17]

In before someone claims they already ARE in the center.

[LadySkinsFan]

I hated that Bernie Sanders, not a Democrat, tried to hijack the Democratic Party. Instead of running a concentrated election season, we had to deal with distractions from the far Left. Plus his campaign attacking the Clinton campaign was giving ammunition to Republicans.

 

It wasn't the time to move the country far Left.

[NoCalMike]

Honestly I think the mainstream democratic party is more centrist than the mainstream republican party, but the GOP has done a great job of making boogeymen out of a handful of Democrats and then associating every single democrat candidate in every single race with those few folks.

 

For example....how many more times am I going to hear about "Nancy Pelosi & Harry Reid values" in a random district in the south?  It's almost comical at this point.

Just now, LadySkinsFan said:

I hated that Bernie Sanders, not a Democrat, tried to hijack the Democratic Party. Instead of running a concentrated election season, we had to deal with distractions from the far Left. Plus his campaign attacking the Clinton campaign was giving ammunition to Republicans.

 

It wasn't the time to move the country far Left.

 

Same.  I wouldn't have minded him running as an (I) and saying his peace, but running as a (D) was sort of a distraction.

[TradeTheBeal!]

Party names are irrelevant at this point.  We have a large far-right fascist party, a large centrist party and a small fringe left-wing party.  If the country chooses fascism...that's what they'll get.

 

#realtalk

[twa]

Large far right? 

[NoCalMike]

I think the bigger thing is the correlation between party loyalty and actual issues and why support of specific issues doesn't translate to voting in the candidates who support those issues.

 

 

[Mooka]

The fantasy is nice, but let's not pretend its not all about $$$

 

Sanders changed the game because he was able to bring in money on Hillary Clinton's level. The Dems want that earning power and they want his voting lists. 

[No Excuses]

Mark Penn is such a crappy writer with bad ideas. 

 

This dude is whining about identity politics when in 2007 he was trying to advise Hillary into portraying Obama as "not fundamentally American" due to his "lack of American roots".

 

He can take his ideas and jump off a cliff.

[grego]

15 minutes ago, twa said:

Large far right? 

http://www.pewforum.org/2015/11/03/chapter-4-social-and-political-attitudes/

"When asked to describe their political views, more than a third of respondents say they are very conservative (8%) or conservative (28%), a third say they are moderate (33%) and about a quarter describe themselves as very liberal (7%) or liberal (17%). Since the 2007 Religious Landscape Study, there has been a slight decrease in the share of Americans identifying as moderate (from 36% in 2007 to 33% in 2014) and an increase in the share identifying as liberal or very liberal (from 20% in 2007 to 24% in 2014). The percentage identifying as conservative or very conservative has held relatively steady (37% in 2007, 36% in 2014)."

 

I think there's a perception that very conservative voters make up a large part of the electorate because many believe that if you voted for Trump, you must be on the far right. 

 

No less a liberal than John Stewart (who I will always have a certain amount of disdain for because of his treatment of the redskins name issue) pointed this out - 

 

 

“I thought Donald Trump disqualified himself at numerous points,” Mr. Stewart said. “But there is now this idea that anyone who voted for him has to be defined by the worst of his rhetoric.

“Like, there are guys in my neighborhood that I love, that I respect, that I think have incredible qualities who are not afraid of Mexicans, and not afraid of Muslims, and not afraid of blacks. They’re afraid of their insurance premiums,” he continued. “In the liberal community, you hate this idea of creating people as a monolith. Don’t look as Muslims as a monolith. They are the individuals and it would be ignorance. But everybody who voted for Trump is a monolith, is a racist. That hypocrisy is also real in our country.”

 

[NoCalMike]

There is a myth that Democrats in large aren't already pretty centrist is more about how right-ward economic policy shifted over the last 30 years and any snail-pace inch away from it is labeled as "class warfare" despite the trickle down being a monumental failure. 

 

On social issues I'd say the Dems are more in line for the most part with where America is currently and headed in the future.  It's just that people resisting are a shrinking number so they have to yell louder about their objections. 

 

I want some examples of "loony left" policies being proposed by actual legislators.  Not some anecdote on a college campus, or anarchist group dressed in black, but real policy that you would consider the "leftist version" of some of the crazy right-wing stuff being proposed by actual legislators.

3 minutes ago, grego said:

“I thought Donald Trump disqualified himself at numerous points,” Mr. Stewart said. “But there is now this idea that anyone who voted for him has to be defined by the worst of his rhetoric.

“Like, there are guys in my neighborhood that I love, that I respect, that I think have incredible qualities who are not afraid of Mexicans, and not afraid of Muslims, and not afraid of blacks. They’re afraid of their insurance premiums,” he continued. “In the liberal community, you hate this idea of creating people as a monolith. Don’t look as Muslims as a monolith. They are the individuals and it would be ignorance. But everybody who voted for Trump is a monolith, is a racist. That hypocrisy is also real in our country.”

 

 

I think that is probably the missed point. The right relies on the on the crazies to win elections because they have less of the "centrist" base than in previous years.  So what ends up happening is the GOP party loyalists will get lumped in with the smaller % of crazies because they all voted for the same candidate.  There are a lot of people embarrassed they voted for Trump but it was likely more about GOP loyalty on base issues and/or not liking Hillary as a candidate.  However because the crazies also turned out for Trump and are featured prominently in a comment thread near you on social media, THAT is what is thought of to be the typical Trump voter.

[Springfield]

I don't think national health care is really a far left concept.

[Weganator]

2 minutes ago, NoCalMike said:

There is a myth that Democrats in large aren't already pretty centrist is more about how right-ward economic policy shifted over the last 30 years and any snail-pace inch away from it is labeled as "class warfare" despite the trickle down being a monumental failure.

 

I get where people are coming from in a sense on this. I can genuinely understand why a labor activist would be concerned about Reagan breaking up unions, 'trickle down', and things of that nature.

 

But the thing to remember is that 35-40 years ago we were dealing with Ford & Carter and absolutely insane inflation rates. It was destroying the savings of people. Retirees were dumpster diving to try and make ends meet. Massive economic reform was needed.

 

We didn't just wake up one day and decide to do it.

[NoCalMike]

Just now, Weganator said:

 

I get where people are coming from in a sense on this. I can genuinely understand why a labor activist would be concerned about Reagan breaking up unions, 'trickle down', and things of that nature

 

We didn't just wake up one day and decide to do it.

 

I get that, and I can even say that at the time perhaps a lot of the GOP thought it would honestly work.  It was an economic theory.  However what I am saying that now looking back we can plainly see where it went wrong and why it didn't work, yet any time there is the smallest of efforts to move away from that takes place, the person is labeled a socialist/communist/whatever.   You always hear politicians say "once people get an entitlement, they will never want to give it up" but you can say the same about the wealthy and corporations when it comes to the tax cuts and other incentives.

[nonniey]

47 minutes ago, LadySkinsFan said:

I hated that Bernie Sanders, not a Democrat, tried to hijack the Democratic Party. Instead of running a concentrated election season, we had to deal with distractions from the far Left. Plus his campaign attacking the Clinton campaign was giving ammunition to Republicans.

 

It wasn't the time to move the country far Left.

There is never a time to move the country to the far left it is at least as bad as the far right.

[mcsluggo]

1 minute ago, Weganator said:

 

I get where people are coming from in a sense on this. I can genuinely understand why a labor activist would be concerned about Reagan breaking up unions, 'trickle down', and things of that nature.

 

But the thing to remember is that 35-40 years ago we were dealing with Ford & Carter and absolutely insane inflation rates. It was destroying the savings of people. Retirees were dumpster diving to try and make ends meet. Massive economic reform was needed.

 

We didn't just wake up one day and decide to do it.

 

but that is NOT reality.   The reality is that Carter was the inflation hawk that hired Paul Volker as chair of the fed (specifically to strangle the money supply and kill the endemic inflation built up by LBJ, Nixon and Ford  (with Nixon and his price controls the worst individual offender).  And Carter was the fiscal conservative, that strove to balance the budget (Fiscal contractionary policy) DURING the monetary contracionary policy that he had engineered by hiring Volker, with a huge price shock (OPEC oil embargo) thrown in at the same time.

 

Reagan, on the other hand,  was the populist free spending  budget dove that cashed in on the guaranteed boom that occurred when the monetary tightening was able to be loosened (once the Volker enacted recession had succeeded in killing entrenched inflation) and responded to that gift wrapped monetary boom by slashing taxes and jacking up spending like he was Hugo Chavez.

 

 

I have no idea how perceptions of these two president's policies have become so skewed and so COMPLETELY backwards in the "collective consciousness.... 

[TimmySmith]

13 minutes ago, Springfield said:

I don't think national health care is really a far left concept.

No, but the implementation and intent of the nearly defunct ACA was. 

 

Defining the center these days is difficult, especially when you take into account that the left is the party of social issues, which, by their nature, are not centrist.

[Weganator]

13 minutes ago, mcsluggo said:

I have no idea how perceptions of these two president's policies have become so skewed and so COMPLETELY backwards in the "collective consciousness.... 

 

The decade of wealth and excess that was the 80's has a big impact on that.

 

I was 3-4 when Bill Clinton got elected, so I only go off of what I can remember (from school) and a semi recent viewing of those 60s, 70s, and 80s CNN documentary series on Netflix. This gives me some stuff to read up on, so thanks for the heads up.

[NoCalMike]

8 minutes ago, TimmySmith said:

No, but the implementation and intent of the nearly defunct ACA was. 

 

Defining the center these days is difficult, especially when you take into account that the left is the party of social issues, which, by their nature, are not centrist.

 

 Wait a second...the ACA in principle was a "leftist" idea? Maybe I am misunderstanding you.

[visionary]

 

[Weganator]

7 minutes ago, NoCalMike said:

 

 Wait a second...the ACA in principle was a "leftist" idea? Maybe I am misunderstanding you.

 

I know where this is going.

 

http://www.politifact.com/punditfact/statements/2013/nov/15/ellen-qualls/aca-gop-health-care-plan-1993/

 

http://www.heritage.org/health-care-reform/commentary/dont-blame-heritage-obamacare-mandate

[NoCalMike]

2 minutes ago, Weganator said:

 

I know where this is going.

 

http://www.politifact.com/punditfact/statements/2013/nov/15/ellen-qualls/aca-gop-health-care-plan-1993/

 

http://www.heritage.org/health-care-reform/commentary/dont-blame-heritage-obamacare-mandate

 

On principle I am not even clicking on the heritage foundations link.

 

I did read the article at the other link and what it amounts to is "It was similar to the ACA, some differences, but because the President (and Hillary's) effort on their own healthcare reform failed, they never actually had to vote on their version,  so it doesn't count."

 

On principle it was a very similar concept.  I don't think anyone has claimed it was the same exact or identical piece of legislation though.

[Gamebreaker]

1 hour ago, grego said:

https://mobile.nytimes.com/2017/07/06/opinion/center-democrats-identity-politics.html?referer=https://www.google.com/

 

"The path back to power for the Democratic Party today, as it was in the 1990s, is unquestionably to move to the center and reject the siren calls of the left, whose policies and ideas have weakened the party.... 

 

... But the last few years of the Obama administration and the 2016 primary season once again created a rush to the left. Identity politics, class warfare and big government all made comebacks. Candidates inspired by Senator Bernie Sanders, Senator Elizabeth Warren and a host of well-funded groups have embraced sharply leftist ideas. But the results at the voting booth have been anything but positive: Democrats lost over 1,000 legislative seats across the country and control of both houses of Congress during the Obama years. And in special elections for Congress this year, they failed to take back any seats held by Republicans.

Central to the Democrats’ diminishment has been their loss of support among working-class voters, who feel abandoned by the party’s shift away from moderate positions on trade and immigration, from backing police and tough anti-crime measures, from trying to restore manufacturing jobs. They saw the party being mired too often in political correctness, transgender bathroom issues and policies offering more help to undocumented immigrants than to the heartland."

 

 

More at link. 

 

 

 

Blood pressure begins to rise......