Where does Gruden rank?

[Skinsinparadise]

I think people are generally watching HC at one point, then make a statement whether they are good or not solely based on that moment. That stuck to a few errors and come up to the conclusion, that he sucks and should be fired. But that's just based at one spot, not seeing the thing as a whole. Sure you can find errors throughout the career of any HC and in any game. No coach is ever perfect at clock management, because that kind of things doesn't exist. Same as playcalling. It's always a gut feeling situation, and nobody would call the same play on the same situation. That's just being human being.

 

 

Then you watch offseason two. You see the guy correcting the mistakes he made. Hiring another crop of assistants, and not the lesser ones. And then, you see the team rises.

 

 

I can't speak for everybody but I'd be surprised if people on this board are quick to judge based on seeing just a few things when it came to Jay.  I think part of the reason why we all can get into some intense arguments on multiple subjects is that we all are Redskins junkies and absorb a lot of info.   So once we form an opinion it's often hard core.   I think your point IMO would apply better to Joe Barry.   We digested a fair amount of info about Barry before the hire and people naturally had predispositions.   He wasn't a popular choice.  So when you see a few things you don't like -- you circle back to his Detroit stint, who else they could have hired, etc.  But with Jay, most people accepted the hire -- and I doubt they bailed on him just on a few errors. I know I didn't.

 

We see game after game, press conference after press conference and read and hear a gazillion stories about the team so I think most of us form a macro vision of the head coach that isn't that shoot from the hip.  For me last year, it was hard for me to find one thing that really stood out about Jay and that was my concern.  His niche -- "the offense" really wasn't better under him (compared to lets say Zimmer who turned a bad defense into a good one within a season).  I thought he handled some of the press conferences including the QB situation at best in a clunky fashion and at worse it seemed just too off the cuff where he's just winging it.  He kept his buddy Haz as defensive coordinator.  The special teams was still a wreck.  Multiple reporters said that Jay's practices weren't that intense and he easily became impatient.  Multiple reporters said that the team weren't very disciplined in the locker room and on the road, etc.    And yeah he didn't distinguish himself in game situations or clock management.    So when I am digesting all of that, it didn't paint a rosy picture to me.

 

Having said that, he also didn't come off as an incompetent boob -- he's been around football his whole life.  So yeah in interviews he comes off as a smart football dude.  But mainly because in year 1 IMO -- I didn't really see anything as a disaster but at the same time saw nothing where he distinguished himself to come to the conclusion that the dude would be better than mediocre.   But yeah looking back at it, I don't think my opinion was off then and now I see the light, etc.  I go more with Rick Snider's point of view who was a big critic of Jay who said this version of Jay is new and improved:  better assistants, sharper practices, normal press conferences, he can be hard on players when he needs to be, the passing game looks sharp, clock management has been mostly good, on and on.

 

Not that I think the dude is Belichick. But my main concern was the ceiling for him was mediocre -- Jim Fassel type.   I didn't think he was another Zorn.  Now, I think he can be better than mediocre - and this year he clearly was good IMO.   

[Jumbo]

http://www.sbnation.com/2015/12/29/10684070/washington-nfl-playoffs-nfc-east-champs-rg3-kirk-cousins   Jay Gruden has Washington thinking differently

 

Change was inescapable. Jay Gruden knew that for a Washington team that was 3-13 before he touched it and 4-12 last year after his first contact. His prime change as head coach this season -- moving from quarterback Robert Griffin III to Kirk Cousins as starter -- sent punctuating jolts throughout his locker room and the NFL.

 

But it was the local sting Gruden felt most.

 

"It's been a unique situation here," Gruden said from his office via telephone on Tuesday morning. "From the pulse of the people here in this city, I could feel the divide over the quarterback thing. But for the most part the fans have stayed passionate and loyal. We are 6-2 at home. A part of that is because they have come out in droves and given us a homefield advantage. I appreciate that."

 

Now they "Hail" Gruden.

 

He has given them only their fourth NFC East crown in the last 26 years and only their fourth playoff appearance in the last 16 years.

 

They like that.

 

Few expected it and fewer in the Washington fan base expected his leadership, his decision-making to matter. To leap from 4-12 to 8-7 with a regular-season finale at Dallas on Sunday and a home playoff game to follow has made Washington fans understand that Jay Gruden has a plan, a strong mind, a definitive will and has the guts to make daunting decisions.

 

Like to play or rest starters against Dallas.

Sit them and keep them healthy or play them and ride the wave?

 

"I think we need to play," Gruden said. "The health of the football team is important. Some guys are banged up. But this is not the preseason where you have 80 players. We have 46. They are going to play. I'll make determinations throughout the game. You've got to have fuel in the tank for the playoffs. But you also have to keep the momentum going. If you are up and dressed, you are playing. And besides, it's the Dallas Cowboys. Postseason, preseason, flag football -- you want to beat them. It's not the end of the world, but we want to get to 9-7 and keep the momentum going and in the right frame of mind. There is so much importance on positive thinking."

 

He has sold that throughout the franchise.

 

He has sold that to Griffin.

 

"I talk to him," Gruden said of Griffin. "He is one of our quarterbacks. I still coach him. He works with the scout team stuff. He has limited reps and that would be the case for any backups especially this time of year. But we still coach him. He's one of us."

 

It is a stunning feat. This team was considered a preseason dud and Griffin an injury-prone malcontent disconnected with Gruden. Its backup quarterback, Cousins, surely an inadequate option. It all looked and sounded dreadful and hopeless to the Washington fan base and beyond. But Gruden and his staff have coached them all, watched them all grow and compete and watched Cousins rise. Cousins has made winning, difference-making plays at quarterback. He has commanded the offense from the pocket and on the run.

 

Coaching is about growth. As Gruden often says, it is not first about the plays, it is about the players first. A successful coach helps them get their minds right, coaches them hard and watches them grow. This has happened for Washington across this team, from Cousins to extraordinary tight end Jordan Reed to a defense that is tied with Carolina and Arizona for the most fumbles recovered (14 apiece).

 

"Kirk has a willingness to get better," Gruden said. "Every day is a new challenge for him. He knows he is not a finished product. He has put some great stuff on tape, some great games. But it has not changed his approach. He is a perfectionist. He talks about the six or seven plays he wishes he would have made, not the touchdowns.

 

"The defense has been steady. They play hard and grind and compete. The fumbles they have earned are man-made. They are flying around. It's growth. We've all grown together. We've improved offensively on third down and red zone. We've drilled the crap out of that. And the defense has improved most in the red zone.

 

"For our offense, Sean (McVay) is a young coordinator who concentrates on the Xs and Os and we work together to put it together. Matt (Cavanaugh) as quarterbacks coach is the calming voice behind the quarterback. He's helped Kirk with base, balance, footwork, emphasizing those things on a daily basis. I view the whole production. I do step in and make calls. I jump in there when I want to pull us back a little bit and be a little more conservative or vice-versa. Most of the time, we are on the same page, in the same language."

 

Gruden has never coached an NFL game like this one on Sunday in Dallas. Division won. Playoff seeding set. Home playoff game assured. Handshakes and hugs. In this his 32d game as NFL head coach, Gruden gets to breathe, survey, continue the growth, maybe even enjoy it all a little more.

 

He talked about the plane ride home from Philadelphia on Saturday night, how his players were in the back celebrating and how his coaches were up front "having a good time, reflecting, a lot of stress relieved." Fans greeted them when they landed at 2:30 a.m., he said. He arrived home and celebrated with his family "until about 4:30 a.m. -- we shot the breeze and had a few ****tails."

 

What Gruden asks of his team he demands of himself.

 

There is a clear reflection.

 

"This sport does not allow a lot of time for celebration," Gruden said. "I still have to make sure our people are doing what they are supposed to do."

 

 

A lot of good stuff in this piece.

 

 

I don't care that I'm no longer  "almost the only voice in the wilderness" (as of these last few weeks) when it comes to noting the positives (inc. the pro credentials) regarding Jay, but I will always remember how ferociously biased and "hater" so much of the noise here was by all the perpetually scapegoat-seeking rg3 emo fanboys (none of it rg3's fault of course) for so long (just as they were with Mike & Kyle, only "doubling down").

 

We don't know where it's going, yet. Few orgs do from one year to the next. But based on objective analysis and evidence now in sufficient supply, an intelligent take would be "looks pretty damn good, all factors considered, with an increasingly bright upside."

 

Now imma warn ya that anyone who follows my comments up with some vapid point-missing "explanation" of defense along the lines of "but there were/are real things to question about Jay"---DON'T.

 

No one (I may have missed one) I've read here is suggesting Jay doesn't have enough shortcomings (though I'd debate certain things people assigned to him as such) to work on, or  is a top NFL coach right now, or is even arguing/suggesting he's that close, just yet. 

 

Do feel free, of course, to yield to your "need" (if you have it) to respond with a negative. Just don't defend/deny/deflect all the "fanboy" level crap (as it devolved into).

 

That **** was quite REAL and beyond "excessive" even for the board, but it is the PAST. It is OVER. Zero tolerance. 

[Voice_of_Reason]

I always said that Jay got a little bit of a bad rap for his handling of the QBs last year.  The complaints that he just cycled through all of them willy-nilly were a bit over-stated, since at least 2, if not 3 (I can't remember exactly) of the switches were necessitated by injury.  I did some breakdown of all of the QB switches last year in several posts.  It wasn't handled well, but it wasn't quite as much of the keystone cops as some folks (Jason Reid, I'm looking at YOU) wanted folks to believe.
 
But he, like just about every coach in the NFL not named Joe Gibbs, had a learning period, where he had to figure things out.  He made some completely bone-headed mistakes last year, and even early this year.  There were times the team just didn't look prepared, and there were a few instances where it's clear they were out coached.
 
You know what?  That happens. There is exactly one point in this season where I went a little off-my-rocker with Jay, and felt that he needed to be removed.  I can't remember the game, it was early in the season, when they ran on 18 of 22 first downs for a combined 40 yards.  And this was just a pattern, with the same results.  At that point, I really thought he was in over his head, because he couldn't figure out, week after week, that the plan wasn't working. 
 
But then the strangest thing happened: He figured it out.  It took a miserable loss to the Cowboys on MNF to do it.  But he got it. Sometimes it takes a swift kick in the balls to get you to change what you're comfortable with.
 
All kudos to him.  He figured out what they were doing wasn't working, and he changed it. They haven't lost since.  You know who else did the same thing? Joe Gibbs.  After going 0-5 in his rookie year as coach, but with a pretty dynamic offense, he changed things up.   They finished 8-8, and won the SB the next year.  But even the great Gibbs, and he is GREAT, needed a little adjustment period, and needed to figure out how to adjust.  

The person that I was most hard on last year was Bruce Allen.  Who, I swear to this day, put Jay in a position to fail.  The fact that he allowed Jay to keep Haslett, that he didn't essentially force him to get an outside OC/QB coach, and that he constructed a mis-matched roster of spare parts, AND throw in the whole Griffin thing, Vince Lombardi would have failed.  
 

No one (I may have missed one) I've read here is suggesting Jay doesn't have enough shortcomings (though I'd debate certain things people assigned to him as such) to work on, or  is a top NFL coach right now, or is even arguing/suggesting he's that close, just yet.

Is Gruden the best coach in the league? Absolutely not.

 

But, and I posted this a few times, I think he IS the best coach in the NFC East, at least right now.  Kelly is an egomaniac who has blown up his team for no reason, Garrett is a puppet, and Coughlin just looks like the game has passed him by a bit.  

 

He's got his team into the playoffs, mentored a young QB, handled a really tough situation with Griffin really well (this year), and has the confidence of his team.

 

A fair look at a position by position ranking of the 'Skins vs. the other 11 teams in the playoffs will probably reveal that they are not as talented at most of the other teams.  

 

But, here they are.  In the playoffs.  On a bit of a hot streak, and completely capable of beating the Vikings, Seahawks or Packers.  

 

And Gruden gets a ton of credit for learning from his mistakes, adapting, and getting his team pointed in the right direction.  

[MattFancy]

I'd want to change my from lower 1/2, to top 1/2. I had said before he was somewhere in the 14-20 range. Still think that's true, but he's on the higher end of that range now. There's no denying the job he did this season with this team.

 

I agree that he still has plenty of shortcomings and the play calling leaves something to be desired from time to time, but he's done a good job this year.

[Jumbo]

'nother little blurb  from Dhall's comments (see TKs thread):

 

 

“I mean, it’s Scot, it’s Jay [Gruden], it’s Bruce [Allen], it’s everybody in that front office, man – especially Jay – that has helped cultivate this talent. Scot’s brought some guys in. I can’t sit and point a finger and say, ‘Hey, Mason [Foster] is here because of Scot.’ I just think it’s all of our guys in the front office that have been working well together that have just brought in guys that fit what we try to do. 

 

[Wildbunny]

Not gonna quote SIP and VOR whole posts, but both are coming to my point. I might not have been precise enough in my wording though.

 

Basically, SIP, you're proving my point. You're making up a statement over Jay with him being put in a tough situation, on a team being a nightmare, a QB controversy, no GM (Bruce isn't one, and I stand to my opinion that Bruce was GM because he didn't find the one he really wanted ie: Scott), and wrecks all over the place. That wasn't what I would call a friendly environment for a first year HC.

Still, I agree, he did tons of things wrong. Do I blame him for keeping Haslett? Not really. Maybe he wasn't given the opportunity, or maybe he wanted to give a friend an opportunity to redeem himself. Maybe both. Who knows? Anyway, I don't feel like blaming someone for giving a friend a hand. No QB Coach? That was a mistake as well. Was tough to understand at first, but now I tend to think he didn't went with one, because he wasn't able to find the right one.

 

The critics of RG3? He took so much bashing for this that was indecent. When that happened, that sounded refreshing. At least you had an honest coach not afraid of speaking the truth. What a change. The only problem I had here? Is if he didn't tell RG3 what he thought of his playing before the presser. If he did, then I'm fine, he can go and say whatever he wants.

 

Coaching carousel? VOR stated it again, I did it also last year and early in the preseason. He went through it mainly because of injuries (twice - RG3 and Colt). Crappy QB play (twice - Cousins and RG3 again). And switched back to the starter when he was cleared to play (Colt to RG3). Considering all the hate Cousins took for throwing ints last year (which was really 2 games) and the ask for benching, it's not really fair to bash him for doing the move everyone's waiting for.

 

Now, that was just year 1. It was definately not perfect, but we were coming from so far underneath that I still can't find a way for him to succeed in the situation he was in last year. Did he signed for it? Hell yes. He knew it. But sometimes, you think you can handle it, but it's still too much of an overwhelming situation that it takes time to adjust.

 

Year 2, he improved a lot. Not everything is perfect, I'll repeat, but he's on the good path, and the team's right there with him.

 

Now SIP, I was just speaking about human nature in general, nobody in particular, but at the end of last season many around here wanted him to get fire quickly so Scott can hire his "godlike" guy, and that coach would have been praised than Cult of Colt. Scott this, Scott that... He's getting all the love here, almost. But damn, Jay and his staff deserves a ton as well, if not more. Finding guys off the street is one thing. Getting them ready to play on the next sunday is another one. And not the easiest of them.

[TSO]

I had one big issue going into this year when it came to Jay, and that was how the team would react to success under him. 

 

All the other criticisms I've heard, and sometimes continue to hear, were not very credible in my mind. You could see from day one he had most of the good qualities found in the very best. But this organization was in such an incredibly bad shape none of it was allowed to really shine through.

 

Now we're seeing how it always starts at the top. I'm glad the example has been made once and for all. It's not so much that "Jay improved on every issue he had", which is true on the surface... it's that he could  because he wasn't stuck operating under a terrible structure with a poor understanding of where the team was and a general philosophy that was all over the place.

 

As far as my one thing... Jay has answered that in a totally satisfactory way for me. He's kept the team focused and playing with intensity for the most part. I would've even forgiven him if we let off a lot going into this Cowboys game, but here he is basically saying he wants to keep at it and not back off an inch.

 

I think that's really the only thing he had to truly "learn" going into this season as compared to last, and he has. That's awesome.

 

I know some will disagree with that, vehemently, and that's fine. I never really minded what happened with Robert last year or how he handled his pressers, though it was a mistake to really get into Robert's faults like he did so publicly. Just never considered it even remotely as big of an error as it was made to be. I blame the local media and fan base more for the over-reactions to his bluntness than his personality itself. For God's sake, the reactions to that filtered into every single observation on him and, even until now, are still there.

 

To his credit, he recognized the ridiculousness of it all and changed his approach considerably. And he managed to do it without totally changing his personality at the mic. He's still fairly open and fun. Impressive.   

 

As far as the play-calling and X's and O's.... you could see from day one his concepts work. Now we've got a QB implementing them consistently. And I get where VOR is coming from regarding his criticism about the "running on first down", but I think it's hilarious when contrasting it with all the criticism (not VOR's, just generally) he was receiving in the past about "abandoning the run" and how he wouldn't "...mesh with Scot's philosophy of establishing the run/physicality at all costs".

 

I also find it difficult to accept that he didn't notice it until the Dallas game, as VOR suggests. I think they knew all along that it was a tendency... but it was one they were willing to accept. There are going to be tendencies when you're trying to establish a strict philosophy. I think the "run on first down most of the time" was his way of doing so. I also think there's some legitimacy to the idea that, even if it's ineffective, it sets the tone and can eventually wear defense's down. We've seen how that happened for us numerous times, where our guys are suddenly running well on the last drive of the game to close it out. Forcing the run on close to every first down has something to do with that. Furthermore, the reason PA was so successful whenever we'd do it on first down was because it was so unexpected. And you don't get as many 2nd and 3rd down opportunities to run the ball as you're getting closer to do or die situations there.

 

I think they opened up the playbook just in time. I love how they handled things, overall. An argument can be made that we lost a game or two because of this tendency, but I'd argue the overall benefit of it outweighs that. Remember, they were going to do the same with Robert. No matter who was behind center this year, they wanted to run the ball no matter what and not put too much on their shoulders until they really gained all the confidence that they could. Once it was absolutely obvious that Kirk could shoulder the load, they started to go that direction.

 

We literally witnessed an organization setting a goal, with an understood philosophy, and sticking to it throughout all the obstacles. They essentially told us they were going to do this all offseason. This is so massive for the organization... I'm not sure people recognize it as much as they should.    

[bonesbr549]

Way too soon to say.   He's building for sure and done more in his 2nd year than I ever thought, but he's pulled some boner game plans as well.  I think he's learning and the guys like to play for him.  So time will tell.  Come back and a couple years and lets talk.  

[PeterMP]

I don't think Gruden did something special to develop Cousins besides allowing him to be the starter. 

 

There's this narrative that Cousins was this horrific interception machine who needed a major makeover to ever have a hope of being an NFL starter. 

 

No, he was just a QB who was still starting his first season's worth of games (spread out over four years), behind a bad offensive line, for one of the most dysfunctional organizations in the NFL, and without the benefit of ever being the starter in training camp.  Of course he threw a lot of interceptions; almost any QB would.  Tons of rookie QBs have, and usually those guys are put in much better situations than Cousins has been in.  And then they improve in their second and third seasons.

 

I think Jumbo touched on this nicely and that's one reason I started this thread because of what appeared to me the dichotomy of people's apparent (IMO) opinions of Cousins and Gruden.

 

There are a lot of young QBs that come into the league, show some talent, and never seem to figure it out at the level that at least Cousins seems to currently be doing.

We saw one of those types of people here, in Grossman, later in his career (after he had some injuries and didn't show nearly the talent that he had when he was younger).  It is easy to say that Cousins just needed time, but Grossman never seemed to figure it out.

 

If Lovie Smith is Cousins' coach, does Cousin reach a level where people are very comfortable with him going into next year as the for sure starting QB?

 

I'm not sure.

 

There was even a thing I saw the other day from the ex-Denver GM (I think I originally saw it here in the ATN) about how they had worked with Cutler to over come some issues he had in college, and how he's actually gone back to them while in Chicago.  Essentially, he was claiming that playing time (coupled with not good coaching) has actually made Cutler a worse player than he was when he was in Denver.

 

I don't think there is any doubt that Cousins had some bad habits coming into the league that was contributing to those interceptions.  It is easy to say that he would have figured it out and corrected it, but a lot of time and a lot of cases what actually happens is that bad habits just get re-enforced.

 

Now, I'm not sure how much credit Gruden should get (would Cousins have figured it out with Lovie Smith has his HC?) and Gruden isn't just the QB or OC, but in a league that is dominated by passing the ability to identify and develop (or find people that can depending on how much credit you want to give to McVay) a young quality QB has to be a big asset as a head coach.

 

I'm not willing to go all in with Gruden, but if you are willing to go in with Cousins as your starting QB, I think you have to also be willing to give credit up the line to Gruden as your HC.

[Skinsinparadise]

 

Still, I agree, he did tons of things wrong. Do I blame him for keeping Haslett? Not really. Maybe he wasn't given the opportunity, or maybe he wanted to give a friend an opportunity to redeem himself. Maybe both. Who knows? Anyway, I don't feel like blaming someone for giving a friend a hand. No QB Coach? That was a mistake as well. Was tough to understand at first, but now I tend to think he didn't went with one, because he wasn't able to find the right one.

 

The critics of RG3? He took so much bashing for this that was indecent. When that happened, that sounded refreshing. At least you had an honest coach not afraid of speaking the truth. What a change. The only problem I had here? Is if he didn't tell RG3 what he thought of his playing before the presser. If he did, then I'm fine, he can go and say whatever he wants.

 

Now, that was just year 1. It was definately not perfect, but we were coming from so far underneath that I still can't find a way for him to succeed in the situation he was in last year. Did he signed for it? Hell yes. He knew it. But sometimes, you think you can handle it, but it's still too much of an overwhelming situation that it takes time to adjust.

 

Year 2, he improved a lot. Not everything is perfect, I'll repeat, but he's on the good path, and the team's right there with him.

 

Now SIP, I was just speaking about human nature in general, nobody in particular, but at the end of last season many around here wanted him to get fire quickly so Scott can hire his "godlike" guy,

 

I hear you.  I have articulated my issues with Jay in year 1 in plenty of posts -- not too much in the mood to recap, its irrelevant IMO, I just care about now.    But to play a little.  To your point, I guess then I am an odd duck compared to the Jay's critics you refer to.  I didn't advocate him being fired, actually said back then he shouldn't be fired.  I also said coaches can grow from one year to the next.  My gut was he wouldn't be one of those coaches who would ultimately make that shift and on that point my gut was wrong.  And, I am happy to be wrong on it.    

 

But yeah my feeling that year was he wasn't a disaster but nothing special really on any count -- looking back on that season, I don't really feel differently about it in that context.   Whether I gave him an excuse for this or that or shift the blame to Bruce or RG3 or whomever for whatever went down his rookie coaching year, it doesn't change my opinion that he came off to me as a mediocre coach.  I've written paragraphs about it back then with examples explaining why I thought he was a B level, Fassel type.  

 

But I feel MUCH better about him today.  I think he's done a good job.  And in my book, he has improved across the board.  And I am not just saying that because they won the division.  He just comes off much more competent on multiple fronts.   But if your point is people should give the dude a break in year 1 and keep him at least for year #2.  I was with you on that specific point.  I did think he deserved another season and see if he could improve -- I did it though with a heavy disclaimer that I was pessimistic that we'd end up with a gem in Jay and explained why.    

 

But yeah my pessimism ended up being unfounded -- and that doesn't bother me one whit, I am more than thrilled. My drill is not to get predictions right.  I am not angling for a FO job.     My drill is a winning team -- I enjoy bantering with people on the board but I am never married to a prediction or theory over a Redskins win -- its not even close.  

 

My #1 scapegoat for 2014 by a mile was Bruce not Jay.  Once we hired Scot, I became much more relaxed really about everything including Jay -- I figured if Scot liked him and kept him, I'd trust it and if not, cool too.  I still feel that way. 

[Cliffmark1]

i was wrong about grudes. hes not bad. he may even be good if we come out aggressive in the paloffs

i was wrong about grudes. hes not bad. he may even be good if we come out aggressive in the paloffs

[Qdeathstar]

I thought he was a dufus first part of this year, but I mean he is improving, I listed to a few of his post games and was impressed, so, I guess he is OK for next year, Where he ranks, idk, results determine rank and rank is determined by the players, mostly, imo.

I think he was trying to build kirks confidence early in the season, so maybe that can take a way form the terrible, ****ty, ****tard game planning in the early part of the year.

Imo, Kirk made the playoffs and Gruden was hanging on for the ride. I needs more data.

He as made a few great decisions but many many many questionable ones when it comes to game planning, imo.

[joeknows]

i have to say bottom half. too many mistakes and bad play calling early in the year. but he gets credit for his conviction on cousins and apparently being right. things have improved but there are just to many factors to support better AND lower rankings.

right now he gets benefit of the doubt that he isnt in the bottom 8. next year he proves where he belongs. and not just based on wins alone either

[johnboy99]

I gave him top half - that gives him plenty of room to grow

 

To go with Kirk instead of RGIII was such a gutsy decision of elephant cojones magnitude it really can't be underestimated

 

Going with Kirk and it backfiring would have cost him his job by midway through the season, this team would have imploded - instead we are in the paloffs and seem set at QB for 10+ years 

[Jumbo]

I put him somewhere between the top half and the bottom half, but not quite in the middle. 

 

Now--see if you can find him!

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

One thing I see Jay being credited with often is that he has major cajones for starting Kirk over Griffin. 

 

Kirk being a better fit for this offense is obvious to us so I can only imagine how obvious it was to everyone at Redskins Park.  Everyone minus Dan, and I guess that takes balls to sit in front of him and explain why Kirk is the guy. I'm sure he had plenty of ammuniton in form of game tape, players and coaches thoughts and all importantly - the GM right by his side. 

 

What I can give Jay credit for is the progress he's made from year 1 to year 2. 

 

Year 1 - he was brought here primarily to develop Robert and well, you see how that went.  He didn't hire a QB coach.  He kept Haslett.  Terrible challenges and poor clock management.  Even with a lack of talent, often this team looked ill-prepared and lackadaisical.  Destroyed Robert to the press.  The list goes on.

 

Since then he hired Callahan and a QB coach.  Has gotten much better at in-game decisions, challenging and clock management.  Appeared to have a wake-up call after the Giants game where the team appeared ill-prepared.  Since then, this team really hasn't had a game even in bad losses, where they just flat looked awful.  He's also adjusted and just said F-it we are gonna throw the ball because we have no other choice and its worked out.

 

From his first camp through the first few weeks of this season, I was convinced this guy was simply not a leader of men or equipped to be a head coach.  He's definitely trending upwards, where he fits against his peers really is yet to be seen.

[Bang]

At this point you have to put him in the top half, simply because he's made the playoffs, he's quieted all of the storms, he's gained the trust of his players, his coaching hires are working out, and his offense is scoring boatloads of points.

 

There is NO drama coming out of Redskins Park for the first time in I don't know how long. Even 2012.. with all it's magic and awesomeness.. the cloud of RG and Shanny's relationship existed.

All of it is gone. 

All of it.

 

What comes out of Redskins Park now is confidence and competence borne of positive results.

 

I like him.

 

~Bang

[DogofWar1]

ESPN has his security as rated high, among the most secure, for what that's worth.

 

http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/page/32for32x151230/every-head-coach-job-security-nfl

[Jumbo]

Battered, without any implication  that Jay is ready for Dancing With the Star Coaches, there are very effective and valid counters for most of the claims, or your  (and you're far from alone on them of course) "takes", on various matters. I have done so as have others but will not do the '"stuck on infinite repeat all the time" game. And I'm past arguing most of "those claims." You follow one well-known norm here and state your claims/beliefs/spins/takes as though they are established facts, and ones that cover each specific matter "completely" in the manner as you lay them out.

 

Each one you cite (and numerous others of course) have been argued ad infinitum with valid and reasonable counters. There is a process in sorting out real, objective critical analysis from bias/ego-driven or "personality" driven (negative/positive/gripe/enjoy etc etc etc) or even media-driven stuff.

 

You've long read mainly just as your name would suggest as a clearly-stated attitude. No sweat.  We all understand the pain of being a Redskins fan w/l-wise the last 15-20 years. You're not special in that sense---your name describes all of us.

 

It is common for folks in strongly contested matters to simply keep regurgitating their positions as factually real when they're not established as such, and remain in their loop (comfort zone for the ego). You don't seem to be one of those folks who are "totally ruled" by such, which IMO, is very cool. In fact, you show willingness to make serious changes in various views. Kudos, amigo. 

 

 

I go nuts, celebrate, and usually writhe in agony during a game. I have little connection to the Pollyanna or kool-aid drinker mindset, other that I'd accord them with an "at least it's a 'positive' type of slant." I hold even less with the "dark cloud" as a chosen approach because of the self-inflicted "extra" negativity when I find "life" (things beyond my control) offers enough without me volunteering to manufacture my own to add simply because it's "familiar" to me and has become a habit.

 

When  it comes to analysis, I prefer detached, informed, and objective. I find plenty of what to me are "real", objective, issues with Jay, Kirk, and all over the org still (duh).  In a manner exceeding my pragmatic expectations, the bulk of  those have been systemically addressed, and yielded to impressive improvement in some cases already---especially with all things considered in context.

 

Now the next big test is "will it last and keep moving forward" afaic.

 

As to how Jay (or Kirk) do end up, we have yet to see, of course. But what's happening could be used as a wake up call to many here about how their thinking (cognitive-behavioral patterns/"habits") "work" more than simply being so deeply invested in what they think.

 

Juts one recommended option: take those moments from living in the darkness (in general or re: a more specific matter) when they are available and enjoy the light. Things grow in the light. I tend to endorse this approach after growing up in Alaska where it's dark a lot. 

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

I agree that my points in relation to him being brought in here to groom Robert and the team being ill prepared in 2014 is not something I can back up as fact.  But I'm sure there are quotes out there from Bruce and even Jay himself that indicate he was indeed brought in here to be the guiding light for Griffin's transition to a pocket QB.  Whether Jay didn't try hard enough or Robert is merely hopeless in that regard is really water under the bridge at this point and don't think we'll ever be able to get facts on that.  As for the team being ill prepared, again thats merely based on the eye-test and cannot be quantified as fact. Its just after many years of watching professional football, you get a feel for when coaches could have better set their team up for success. 

 

The other items I listed I do think can be backed up with facts such as not hiring a QB coach and trying to be a jack of all trades as head coach, keeping Jim Haslett around, bad gameday decisions in relation to challenging and the clock.  In fact, I think the changes we've seen through the second half of this season are an indicator that he saw those same things as areas he needed to improve upon as well.  His arrow is going up and that's good enough for me.

[Wildbunny]

Knowing what to improve is one thing. Improving them is another one.

 

Still, "bad gameday decisions" are purely subjectives and judged on hindsight.

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

Knowing what to improve is one thing. Improving them is another one.

 

Still, "bad gameday decisions" are purely subjectives and judged on hindsight.

 

You're right, it's completely subjective for me to be critical of having Bruce Allen in the booth assisting with challenges.  I cannot gather facts to support it.  Other than the completely lopsided success in that area last season.

 

I'm pretty sure they don't do that anymore and there is a reason for it, subjective/objective/blah blah.

[DJD2]

After seeing the debacle taking place up I-95, I don't think you can underestimate the importance of a coach that can relate to his players, and the resulting buy-in to what he is trying to accomplish.

 

I was extremely skeptical of Gruden the hire, and there was nothing really that I saw last year that made me change my mind much.

 

But this year is just a complete 180 in my viewpoint, and when I see some of the comments from the players, you can tell they want to play, and WIN, for him.

 

I believe the arrow is pointing up for Gruden and he could well end up being very good, and in Washington for a long time (in coach years - kinda like dog years but less).

[Jumbo]

No, they're not facts the way you write them, Battered. They're contentions (that's one word that works). Some not entirely factual may be partially factual. There's more to the "haslett deal" and "hiring a qb coach" deal (Robert did have his personally hand-picked coach and wanted to keep him btw).  I'm one who posted on those items a few times in the past (it was way worse back then with many uber-rg3 guys going full-tilt nuts) but as with much else, I feel no need to rehash it beyind the few times I did way back then.

 

But put it on Jay alone just as written and it doesn't change much of anything meaningful IMV, football wise for us. Not a really big deal---not given the context I can see re: jay and the team, then, the recent past prior to that, and the present. But I'm addressing the way arguments are presented.

 

 

E.G.--there are few (if any) nfl coaches/experts who likely doesn't have a couple or more "horrendous" picks in their pantheons of "i like this guy" or laughable conclusions they reached on other football matters at times.

 

Many people will tell a guy's entire story from a biased/prejudicial view way too quick, and based on way too little valid information, or take some matters and exaggerate their significance to suit a prejudice.

 

Per my take on Has, to repeat it, he was always a 50-50 guy at best to me, ability wise. Middle of the pack, very dependent on his roster quality (needs to be very good to do very well). But Haslett (and I wanted him gone, big time) was able to be employed a long time in this league and it wasn't via "cronyism" alone. It hurts, though, to say anything about him that isn't nasty.  

 

Bottom line---it's all staples on a sports message board---claims and spinning the media blurbs, perceptions and interpretations and speculations---all frequently not stated (properly written) as opinions, but instead stated as established and accepted facts in posts, and then read and "heard" as such by many, and then regurgitated fo-evah (or almost).

 

That's the turf where biases and "personality" (or just base ego) rule, filtering perception and motivating to spin, seek, and craft to support what one had already wanted/chose to believe--often a belief formed quickly and set in, deeply.

 

 

For those comfy being that way, by all means, continue, or, as they say, "blah bah blah." 

[Commander PK]

The best leaders put their people in the best position to be successful and productive. Gruden is doing that well. The players are responding to him.

I say he is in the upper half with the potential to move up.