KDawg Posted September 29, 2015 Share Posted September 29, 2015 Not starting this for any particular reason, but it's something that truly sticks out to me... Tom Brady and Aaron Rodgers are two of the, if not the two best, quarterbacks in the NFL. A conversation could be made for Manning still, and it's clear that he's able to operate in variable conditions... But what do Rodgers and Brady have in common that no Redskin quarterback as of late has really had? The same system. Brady's coordinator has changed, but the system is Belichick's. Make no mistake about it. Rodgers has had Mike McCarthy almost since he was drafted (although I believe McCarthy was in SF his rookie year, but I'd have to fact check that). That's not taking anything away from those two. They are amazing quarterbacks... But it's pretty telling that these guys have been in systems they're familiar with and producing like they are. Brees probably fits in this category, too. Manning is slightly different, as the first two weeks he was in a different system and struggles a bit, but the Broncos went to more pistol and Manning's type of O and he looked great despite a dead arm. System familiarity is important. Extremely important. And until that happens our QBs will continue to struggle. Doesn't matter who, either. We need continuity. And I'm hoping that once Scot McCloughan has all of the chess pieces he wants in place here, we can see that kind of continuity in DC. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boss_Hogg Posted September 29, 2015 Share Posted September 29, 2015 But what if said system is flawed from the beginning? Not saying Gruden's system is flawed is but what if he's the wrong guy? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KDawg Posted September 29, 2015 Author Share Posted September 29, 2015 "once McCloughan has all of the chess pieces he wants in place". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheGoodBits Posted September 29, 2015 Share Posted September 29, 2015 You know what a key to stability, and having the same system for 10+ years is? Winning. Winning often and early (in the careers of these QBs). Brady took over a playoff team midseason. Rodgers took over a 13-3 team from Favre. These teams had a foundation already in place that allowed them to be successful early in their careers, and their success promoted continuity and continued success. That's a big reason drafting a top 5 QB fails so often. These kids are thrown into the fire on a crappy team and usually have multiple coaches during their rookie contracts. You need a foundation first. You need a team that is ready to win. Unfortunately, teams that are ready to win aren't usually picking top 5. That will happen with the Skins this year. 6-8 wins, will be a QB away from a halfway decent team, and will place ourselves out of the running for the top guy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grhqofb5 Posted September 29, 2015 Share Posted September 29, 2015 God that was a long post, why can't we just get to the point. Let's get some damn free agents and win this thing in 2016. Heard Manning is available for three 1st rounders this offseason, can't pass on that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TD_washingtonredskins Posted September 29, 2015 Share Posted September 29, 2015 But what if said system is flawed from the beginning? Not saying Gruden's system is flawed is but what if he's the wrong guy? Systems can't really be flawed. I mean, I suppose they could if someone like me tried to create one, but not if a viable NFL coach/coordinator is using a variation of a proven system. These offenses are set up to succeed if players can beat the guy in front of them. Systems can be schemed around, etc. but it's not like an offensive coordinator would ever design a route tree where two WRs will run right into one another. Pick the NFL's worst offense right now (I don't really know who it would be, just theoretically). If you put the AFC Pro Bowl team in that offense it would suddenly be successful. So, I tend to agree somewhat with KDawg that our personnel having the same system for 3,4,5 years would be a huge advantage (and something that hasn't happened since Snyder took over the team). If you combine that with a GM who is stocking the roster with better talent (that happens to fit the system), then you will eventually see success. You'd have to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lombardi's_kid_brother Posted September 29, 2015 Share Posted September 29, 2015 Does anyone really believe there are "systems?" Isn't it all just plays and general philosophies at this point? I mean, Tom Brady seems to have the most success in Josh McDaniels' system....and Josh McDaniels is a goddamn idiot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TD_washingtonredskins Posted September 29, 2015 Share Posted September 29, 2015 Does anyone really believe there are "systems?" Isn't it all just plays and general philosophies at this point? I mean, Tom Brady seems to have the most success in Josh McDaniels' system....and Josh McDaniels is a goddamn idiot. I think philosophies and a playbook is what constitutes a system. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MartinC Posted September 29, 2015 Share Posted September 29, 2015 I think philosophies and a playbook is what constitutes a system. I'd say that a 'system' now is more about the verbiage and terminology used to communicate plays overlaid with a philosophy of how you want to attack (run heavy, play action versus pass heavy spread and vertical passing game versus horizontal - though the distinctions are much more subtle than that). Just about all NFL offences run the same plays the differences are about how and with which personnel they run them and critically how personnel match ups are identified and exploited. Interesting article here from Grantland on this subject http://grantland.com/features/how-terminology-erhardt-perkins-system-helped-maintain-dominance-tom-brady-patriots/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pjfootballer Posted September 29, 2015 Share Posted September 29, 2015 All this talk in multiple threads about Rogers and Brady just make me so jealous and sad. New England goes from Bledsoe (maybe not HOF, but he could throw the ball well) to Brady. Packers go from Favre to Rogers. In a small way, Indy goes from Peyton to Luck, even though Luck is inconsistent right now. Makes me jealous and sad that these teams were able to find not one, but TWO elite QBs and we haven't found one in the entire time I've been a fan. Theismann, Williams and Rypien all filled in, but none were elite or had longevity. Sigh. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mattsb84 Posted September 29, 2015 Share Posted September 29, 2015 War Room (about belichick) and Parcells (long read) both really dig into this topic quite a bit. Fascinating stuff. As with anything in this life, it starts at the top with a leader with a clear vision and the ability to realize that vision (or get people in place to realize that vision). I think Mcloughan has a vision, but I don't think Gruden is the guy to get it done. Gruden doesn't scream leader to me. Falls into the good coordinator, bad head coach bag for me. I think the last coach we had that had the know how/ability was Gibbs II and before him, Schottenheimer. Would have liked to have seen what Marty could have done, coaching out his contract here. Even if its just making it to the playoffs year in and year out, that would have been better then the slop we get now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasRoane Posted September 29, 2015 Share Posted September 29, 2015 I agree 100% Kdawg. I don't understand this desire to continually press the reset button. It hasn't helped a bit. Let this build for a few years and then let's see where the team is at. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lombardi's_kid_brother Posted September 29, 2015 Share Posted September 29, 2015 I agree 100% Kdawg. I don't understand this desire to continually press the reset button. It hasn't helped a bit. Let this build for a few years and then let's see where the team is at. I think people get caught up in this. You know who the highest praised OC in the league is right now? Kyle Shanahan. Imagine if we had a "system" like that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasRoane Posted September 29, 2015 Share Posted September 29, 2015 I think people get caught up in this. You know who the highest praised OC in the league is right now? Kyle Shanahan. Imagine if we had a "system" like that. Yeah and we couldn't wait to run him out of town. I told my son this year to pick Matt Ryan as his QB. Everyone laughed at him. They ain't laughing now. Kyle can flat out scheme it up as good as anyone. Hell, he had Matt Schaub throwing for over 4,000 yards back to back! Set Redskins passing records with Mcflabb and they hated each other. Now it's looking like Kyle was the reason for RGIII's 2012 season. I remember how the Seahawks and 49ers began copying his stuff mid season. The fans need to trust Scot McCloughan. Just be patient and let this build. If Jay is not the guy then let Scot make that call. For now, Jay is the guy so let's just see what happens. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PortisBetts Posted September 29, 2015 Share Posted September 29, 2015 But what if said system is flawed from the beginning? Not saying Gruden's system is flawed is but what if he's the wrong guy? Honest question, do you think Gruden's system is flawed? From what I have watched, the offense that he deployed has consistently led to opportunities for the qb and receiver to take advantage and create plays, but they just havent been executed correctly. Look at this past week with the Giants. Cousins missed, easily, 6-7 throws that should have been completed and would have directly led to points and extended drives. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TD_washingtonredskins Posted September 29, 2015 Share Posted September 29, 2015 Yeah and we couldn't wait to run him out of town. I told my son this year to pick Matt Ryan as his QB. Everyone laughed at him. They ain't laughing now. Kyle can flat out scheme it up as good as anyone. Hell, he had Matt Schaub throwing for over 4,000 yards back to back! Set Redskins passing records with Mcflabb and they hated each other. Now it's looking like Kyle was the reason for RGIII's 2012 season. I remember how the Seahawks and 49ers began copying his stuff mid season. The fans need to trust Scot McCloughan. Just be patient and let this build. If Jay is not the guy then let Scot make that call. For now, Jay is the guy so let's just see what happens. What cracks me up is that 2 years prior to wanting to run him out of town, we were petrified that Kyle's dad would stay around too long and potentially block us from promoting him to head coach before another team poached him. We, as a fan base, went from skeptical (2010 with McNabb), to excited (2010-11 with Grossman), to euphoric (2012 with Griffin), to anger (2013) in four years. Kyle went from the HC-in-waiting to someone who was only in the league because of his dad in that amount of time. Our fan base is nuts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bowhunter Posted September 29, 2015 Share Posted September 29, 2015 Which came first, the chicken or the egg? Like many pointed out above, a losing coach is on a 3 year egg timer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lombardi's_kid_brother Posted September 29, 2015 Share Posted September 29, 2015 Kyle went from the HC-in-waiting to someone who was only in the league because of his dad in that amount of time. Our fan base is nuts. When he was the HC in waiting, I thought he was in the league because of his dad. I've always thought he was an entitled mouth breather. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkinsFTW Posted September 29, 2015 Share Posted September 29, 2015 The best example of consistency right now is Marvin Lewis coaching a team that used to be a bigger joke than the Redskins are now. He's not even one of the best coaches but he's been there for a decade + and now gets that cluster**** of a franchise to the playoffs every single year even after his coordinators are poached by laughingstock franchises like us. Some think Gruden will get fired, I doubt he will, and if he's still around in 5 years we would be much more likely to be successful than if we cycle through another 2-3 coaches looking for another Gibbs (that doesn't exist). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peregrine Posted September 29, 2015 Share Posted September 29, 2015 I had a conversation with a Ravens fan this past week, where he talked about how Flacco this offseason spent it working on handling the third down blitz. Man, it must be nice to have so much continuity that you dont have to relearn everything every offseason, but instead can work on the nuances of your game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ghost of Posted September 29, 2015 Share Posted September 29, 2015 You know what a key to stability, and having the same system for 10+ years is? Winning. Winning often and early (in the careers of these QBs). Brady took over a playoff team midseason. No he did not. The 2000 Patriots were 5-11 and started off losing in 2001.Brady experienced winning early on because, even with less than superlative stats, he was the primary reason they won games. As for systems and winning games, Campbell got to sit and witness two playoff seasons but never amounted to too much here or anywhere. In fact, it was his 2007 injury that propelled the Skins to the postseason. In spite of clueless coaching and organizational leadership at times, Philip Rivers has led a team to fairly decent outcomes and they've beaten Manning in his prime and at least been a threat and they've changed systems, offensively and defensively multiple times from what I recall. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rufus T Firefly Posted September 29, 2015 Share Posted September 29, 2015 I think people get caught up in this. You know who the highest praised OC in the league is right now? Kyle Shanahan. Imagine if we had a "system" like that. Of course, he was here 4 years and the team was utterly disintegrating by the time he left. How much patience are you asking for now? I think he could have been good if freed from his father, but that wasn't gonna happen here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redskinpigskin Posted September 29, 2015 Share Posted September 29, 2015 I guess we will see if Snyder gives McCloughan enough time to put a system in place, whether that is with Gruden or not. I think part of the problem is that Snyder is a "fan". It appears he gets emotional and makes decisions which aren't always sound. I, too, would have liked to have seen what Marty could have done here for 5 years or more. When Gibbs II left, it appeared we had a smooth transition in place to have Gregg Williams be the next head coach, but we ended up with Maroon and Black. Mike and Kyle had to go to because of the decisions Snyder made with Griffin. If the stories are true that Griffin met with Snyder and came up with "acceptable plays", that eliminated Kyle from having a future here. The owner, or whoever is in charge of football decisions, has to be smart enough to make a decision as to when enough is enough and its time to fire everyone and start over or smart enough to say we need to be patient and stick with who we have. I don't think Snyder is capable of making that type of decision correctly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rodriggo Posted September 29, 2015 Share Posted September 29, 2015 Gruden as an assitant was never as good as Marvin Lewis who, correct me if I'm wrong here, coached the next best defense to the 85 Bears. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KokoMike Posted September 29, 2015 Share Posted September 29, 2015 The Mike Shanahan system put us back another few years, at least. Remember, he was President, worst President in Redskins history. It has been 24 years since we had a system that worked. This is the McCloughan system now. Patient? No. Do I think he can break through? Will major changes be necessary sooner than later? Yes. Yes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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