Forehead Posted January 9, 2015 Share Posted January 9, 2015 I thought it might be time to take a good long look at what we might be able to expect from our "all world talent evaluator" that has just been installed as the new GM. What is it about him that sets him apart from the incompetents that we've had in charge of our roster in the past? We know the end game of his previous two stints (competitive San Francisco and Seattle squads) but what did those teams look like when he took over, compared to our roster? Get ready for some Friday reading. *Some notes. I know there's some question about how much McCloughan was responsible for, was it him or John Schneider in Seattle, etc. We're never going to know for sure, but I'm assuming he had prominent involvement, so we're going with it. *I used a mixture of Wikipedia and Pro Football reference for my records, lineups, and research. There may be guesses in some places. Let's start by evaluating rosters, which I'm going to do on a 3-2-1 scale to determine how bad each situation was when he walked in. Yes, this is pretty arbitrary and won't show differences if one position group was truly terrible while others were close. I welcome arguments. I'm including anyone that was on IR as having played, since this is supposed to be a roster evaluation. I'm considering depth to some degree, but I didn't want this to take all day. 2004 San Francisco 49ers (2-14) vs. 2009 Seattle Seahawks (4-12) vs. 2014 Washington Redskins (3-13) Yes, the 49ers were actually worse, record wise, when McCloughan came on board, but let's look at the rosters. QB: Tim Rattay/Ken Dorsey vs. Matt Hasselbeck vs. RG3/Kirk/Colt And you thought we had it bad at this position. Can you imagine staring at a Tim Rattay/Ken Dorsey combo? The Seahawks get the edge here, Hasselbeck was a 34 year old vet with some juice, and Wallace was young and had promise (11-3 TD/INT in 2008). Hasselbeck's stats were a bit better than the combo we rolled out, and at least Seattle had some consistency. Seattle 3, Washington 2, San Francisco 1. RB: Kevan Barlow/Maurice Hicks vs. Julius Jones/Justin Forsett vs. Alfred Morris We get the edge here. After looking at the warm bodies San Francisco was rolling out, you don't feel so bad anymore, do you? Seattle gets the two because at least Julius Jones had a pulse, though no one knew Forsett would become legitimate years later with another team. Barlow scored a few TD's, but his YPC was terrible, and I still don't know who Maurice Hicks is. Washington 3, Seattle 2, San Francisco 1. WR (top three): Cedrick Wilson/Brandon Lloyd/Curtis Conway vs. T.J. Houshmandzadeh/Nate Burleson/Deion Branch vs. Desean Jackson/Pierre Garcon/Andre Roberts What a wasteland. D-Jax might have won this category by himself. San Fran's...I can't even. As for Seattle, this was not the Bengals Housh, or the Patriots Branch, but they put up passable stats. Washington clearly wins, however. Washington 3, Seattle 2, San Francisco 1. TE: Eric Johnson vs. John Carlson vs. Jordan Reed/Niles Paul The clear winner here is Seattle. John Carlson was in his second season as a high pick and putting up damn good stats. I might take him now, years later, over our current crop. Eric Johnson was a clear safety valve with San Francisco's awful QB's (he caught 82 passes), averaging just 10 Y/R and scoring just twice. At the time though, I think I would have had as much hope with him as with who we currently have, Niles Paul who our fanbase occasionally wants to get rid of, and Jordan Reed, who can't stay healthy. There's no real winner between the two. Seattle 3, Washington 1.5, San Francisco 1.5 O-Line: Kyle Kosier/Eric Heitmann/Brock Gutierrez(Jeremy Newberry)/Justin Smiley/Scott Gragg vs. Sean Locklear (Walter Jones)/Rob Sims/Chris Spencer/Max Unger/Ray Willis vs. Trent Williams/Shawn Lauvao/Kory Lichtensteiger/Chris Chester/Tom Compton I was originally going to do these positions in three groups, T/G/C but I don't want this to go on forever. Take a look at San Francisco's O-Line. I checked each of them on Wikipedia (Pro-Football Reference isn't as comprehensive going further back) and there wasn't an All-Pro or even a Pro Bowl among any of them. They did have two time pro bowler Jeremy Newberry at center, he wound up on IR all year and doesn't outrank Trent Williams. The best you could say for the rest was that they were healthy, and that Smiley was a rookie 2nd round pick so maybe there was hope for them. Seattle gets the edge over us. Why you ask? Remember, this is roster evaluation, not what actually happened. In addition to having a young star in Unger, Seattle also had Walter Jones on IR for most of the season. Walter Jones, prior to 2009, had been in the Pro Bowl the past 8 years, a four time All-Pro, and a possible inductee into the Hall of Fame. Plus Unger, and they line was younger across the board. We have Trent Williams and four pieces of interchangeable garbage, and know nothing about the backups. Seattle 3, Washington 2, San Francisco 1 D-Line: John Engleberger/Anthony Adams/Bryant Young/Andre Carter vs. Patrick Kerney/Brandon Mebane/Colin Cole/Lawrence Jackson vs. Jarvis Jenkins/Chris Baker/Jason Hatcher Hey, San Francisco is finally out of the basement on something! Bryant Young was on the wrong side of 30 but a solid player with a few pro bowls under his belt. Andre Carter was, at the time, a young stud with 25 sacks in his first three seasons, though 2004 would prove disappointing. Engleberger is a fond memory for Va. Tech fans, but at this point, he was in the middle of a journeyman career. Anthony Adams was a young draftee out of Penn State who made little impact, but at least he was young. This was a group you could work with. In Seattle, Patrick Kerney had a damn good career but he was 33 at this point, his impact was lessened, and 2009 would be his last season. Brandon Mebane was a solid 3rd round choice who was contributing, and Lawrence Jackson was a recent 1st rounder with promise, though he would up getting traded after 2009. Colin Cole was a nobody. As for us, what can you say? Jason Hatcher was a high priced free agent who underperformed, Jarvis Jenkins has never lived up to his second round billing, and Chris Baker is a big body whose distinguishing moment of the season was leveling Nick Foles and getting into a fistfight with Jason Peters. Ugh. San Francisco 3, Seattle 2, Washington 1 LB: Jeff Ulbrich/Derek Smith/Jamie Winborn(Julian Peterson) vs. Leroy Hill/David Hawthorne (Lofa Tatupu)/Aaron Curry vs. Ryan Kerrigan/Keenan Robinson/Perry Riley/Trent Murphy (Brian Orakpo) Pro Football reference doesn't have IR data for 2004, at least not on the 49ers page, but I assume there had to have been someone hurt. I don't even know who Jeff Ulbrich is, and a stats check shows I don't need to. Derek Smith is the same Derek Smith that used to wear our uniform, do you miss him? Jamie Winborn was a journeyman who never started more than 11 games in a season. It turns out the 49ers had Julian Peterson on IR, and he was very good, though he would get better later in his career with Seattle. The Seahawks had mid-rounder Leroy Hill showing promise, and they has Lofa Tatupu, who had recently been a three time Pro Bowler and a 1 time all pro, manning the middle. At this point, no one knew he would completely fall off a cliff. Hawthorne was an admirable fill in. They has also just drafted Aaron Curry. he wound up being a bust, but remember, he was supposed to be all-world can't miss at the time. Washington has Ryan Kerrigan, who has turned out to be a great player. Maybe not quite at the elite levels, but a great use of a 1st round pick. Keenan Robinson looked very good this year but after missing two seasons with injuries, the jury it out. Perry Riley most seem to want gone, and we're fed up with Orakpo and unsure of whether Trent Murphy was worthy of his second round choice. I think at the time, we would have been much happier in Seattle's situation, having a solid vet, a young multiple pro bowler, and rookie who was supposed to be the next big thing. Seattle 3, Washington 2, San Francisco 1 CB: Ahmed Plummer/Shawntae Spencer/Dwaine Carpenter/Jimmie Williams vs. Marcus Trufant/Josh Wilson/Kelly Jennings/Ken Lucas vs. DeAngelo Hall/David Amerson/Baushad Breeland Ahmed Plummer had 12 INT's in the three seasons previous to 2004 and at least seemed like a piece before injuries derailed him. Shawntae Spencer was a second round rookie so you figure hopes were high. I can't even figure out who the nickel/injury fill in was for SF. Carpenter at least had an interception, Jimmie Williams was a nobody. Seattle had higher hopes. Marcus Trufant was a 1st rounder in his 3rd season who had made some plays. Josh Wilson was a recent 2nd round pick with 4 INT's the previous year. Not sure who #3 was between Jennings and Lucas, but at least Lucas had a pick. There was hope here. For us, D-Hall has been a source or argument amongst our fanbase, and now he's hurt. Amerson has showed flashes but ultimately had not lived up to his second round billing. Breeland has been a revelation for a rookie 4th rounder but has a penchant for flags. Seattle is the clear winner, and I think our situation has an edge over what San Francisco was looking at. Seattle 3, Washington 2, San Francisco 1 Safety: Tony Parrish/Ronnie Heard vs. Deon Grant/Jordan Babineaux vs. Ryan Grant/Brandon Meriweather San Francisco's two guys are non-descript, though it is worth mentioning that in the 2003 season, Tony Parrish had a whopping 9 interceptions, and 7 the year before, so at least one position was solid for the 49ers. Ronnie Heard had no career to speak of. The Seahawks rolled out Deon Grant, who appears to have had 2-3 interceptions every season for his entire career, and Jordan Babineaux, similarly non-descript. Basically two average starters who played the whole season. Then you have our guys, and the mess behind them. The easy answer is, we get the least points here. I think if I had to pick, I'd take San Fran's situation, at least one of their guys seemed to be dynamic. San Francisco 3, Seattle 2, Washington 1 Special Teams: Kickers can be interchangeable depending on situation, and no one's really stood out as good or bad. San Fran had young Andy Lee punting for them, before he started winning all the awards. Seattle had an in his prime Jon Ryan who was good, not great. We have Tress Way, who has been very good through we over-rate him because we look at how far he kicks and ignore the fact that he outkicks his coverage too much. While I'm tempted to lean Lee, I have to remind myself that this was his rookie season, and Way's was better. Nothing stands out about anyone's return game, though San Francisco's was clearly the worst, with a return average about 1.5 yards lower than the other two. So I think we win by default. Washington 3, Seattle 2, San Francisco 1 Total Score: Seattle - 25, Washington - 20.5, San Francisco - 14.5 I think my arbitrary scores pretty much sync with the records. Seattle had a better roster to start with, even absorbing injuries to Jones and Tatupu, and still wound up a game better. On the other hand, San Francisco's roster was a true dumpster fire, even by our standards. Point being, our situation is not the worst thing McCloughan has walked into. The Rebuilds: So the question is, how did these messes get fixed, that McCloughan was involved in repairing? What can we hope or expect to happen if form holds? Well, let's take a look. San Francisco: After the 2-14 disaster of 2004, McCloughan was added to the personnel staff of the 49ers. Their subsequent records up until he left before the 2010 season: 2005: 4-12 2006: 7-9 2007: 5-11 2008: 7-9 2009: 8-8 Doesn't look great, though this would have been when he was drafting and building a foundation. San Francisco would have a regular season record of 42-21-1 in the four seasons following his departure, when you would expect his picks to be getting into their primes. So the draft, contributors only, whether in SF or with another team. 1st: Alex Smith (2005), Vernon Davis (2006), Patrick Willis (2007), Joe Staley (2007), Michael Crabtree (2009) 2nd: David Bass (2005), Manny Lawson (2006) 3rd: Frank Gore (2005), Ray McDonald (2007) 4th: Michael Robinson (2006), Dashon Goldson (2007) 5th: Parys Haralson (2006), Tarell Brown (2007) 6th: Delanie Walker (2006), Josh Morgan (2008) 7th: None I tried to base this off of value by round. As an example, Josh Morgan didn't have a great career, but for a 6th rounder? Same with Michael Robinson, not a great career, but a great teammate who switched to fullback to open holes for Frank Gore and later Marshawn Lynch. For a 4th rounder, not bad at all. There are some definite misses, 2008 was particularly bad with Kentwan Balmer and Chilo Rachel being the 1st and 2nd rounders, and Alex Smith over Aaron Rodgers looks awful in hindsight, though no one had an issue with it at the time that I can recall. He doesn't seem to have much luck with 2nd rounders at all. Also of note, he clearly likes to trade around. Free Agency: Just looking for big deal signings here 2005: Jonas Jennings for seven years 2006: Nothing big unless you count Walt Harris and receiver Antonio Bryant 2007: Aubrayo Franklin, Nate Clements, Tully Banta-Cain, Trade for Darrell Jackson 2008: Justin Smith, Ahmad Brooks, Shaun Hill, Isaac Sopoaga, Isaac Bruce, Takeo Spikes 2009: Marvel Smith, Dre Bly, Demetric Evans I wouldn't call this great either. Justin Smith was a standout signing, but Nate Clements I recall was a disaster, both in contract and in performance. I think Takeo Spikes gave them a year or two. So there you have it. There are some good moves here, a little bit of a foundation, but San Francisco ultimately was never better than 8-8 during this time. It should be noted that in the two drafts after he left, the 49ers drafted Anthony Davis, Mike Iupati, NaVorro Bowman, Aldon Smith, and Colin Kaepernick. Overall, this doesn't scream "must hire" to me. Seattle: Now we have his second stint, with the Seahawks from 2010 to 2014. He technically resigned a few weeks before the 2014 draft, but I'm assuming he put a lot of work and evaluation into this so I'm going to look at those players that were drafted as well. 2010: 7-9 (Division Champs) 2011: 7-9 2012: 11-5 (Wild Card) 2013: 13-3 (Division Champs, Super Bowl Win) 2014: 12-4 (Division Champs) 1st: Russell Okung (2010), Earl Thomas (2010), Bruce Irvin (2012) 2nd: Golden Tate (2010), Bobby Wagner (2012), Justin Britt (2014) 3rd: Russell Wilson (2012) 4th: Walter Thurmond (2010), KJ Wright (2011) 5th: Kam Chancellor (2010), Richard Sherman (2011) 6th: Byron Maxwell (2011) 7th: Malcolm Smith (2011) This looks a bit better. Hits in every round over four years, and this is with almost no contribution from 2013 or 2014 as of yet. Basically half of Seattle defense was built in two years alone, including an entire secondary and a 7th round pick that was a Super Bowl MVP. That's a record that is hard to argue. Free Agency: As before, just looking for big deal signings here. Not counting re-signings or extensions or existing players 2010: Chester Pitts, Traded for Marshawn Lynch 2011: Leon Washington, Sidney Rice, Tarvaris Jackson, Zach Miller, Brandon Browner 2012: Matt Flynn, Red Bryant, Kellen Winslow, Chris Clemons, Braylon Edwards, Terrell Owens 2013: Michael Bennett, Cliff Avril, Antoine Winfield, Traded for Percy Harvin 2014: Nothing before McCloughan resigned in April A few gems here. Certainly striking while the iron was hot on Marshawn Lynch was a bold move that paid off, and Zach Miller has worked out. Even Percy Harvin was good enough for them to make use of and then send on his way. Good DE/LB pickups as well in Clemons and Bennett. The proverbial dartboard of QB's, and he seemed to be attracted to WR's (at both places) that were older and a bit past their prime. What I'm noticing is that there aren't a ton of those terrible Haynesworth type deals, though Nate Clements I think came close in SF. And the Matt Flynn overpay, but nothing too bad. It does look like we should be able to enjoy a better overall vision for where the team is heading, maybe not so many outlandish mistakes. I'm still not convinced this guy is the draft whisperer that some claim he is, but we should have enough hits to keep us engaged. Too Long, Didn't Read version: We're not the worst situation he's encountered, and he should make us better, though he may not be quite as good as we hope he is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MattFancy Posted January 9, 2015 Share Posted January 9, 2015 Great work Pho! Though, you do remember what RB was drafted during McCloughan's time there, right? Your boy Glenn Coffee!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
S.T.real,lights,out Posted January 9, 2015 Share Posted January 9, 2015 Great post Pho. The one thing that really stands out to me when reading this is again the importance of the QB position. He never won much in SF b/c Smith was so bad. He leaves Jim H comes in and gets Smith right a long with Kap and the 9ers are rolling. Seattle, 7-9, 7-9 and then takes off when they get Wilson. Scot definitely knows the process of building a good foundation for a great team however our eggs are still in the basket of Jay to get one of these QBs or to bring in a QB to start producing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boss_Hogg Posted January 9, 2015 Share Posted January 9, 2015 But as Scot ever stepped into a situation with a rabid fan type owner like Dan? Dan bleeds burgundy and gold. I have no doubt Scot can succeed. But Dan the Fan needs to just sit back with all of us and enjoy the rebuild. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Forehead Posted January 9, 2015 Author Share Posted January 9, 2015 Great work Pho! Though, you do remember what RB was drafted during McCloughan's time there, right? Your boy Glenn Coffee!!! That trade is still the masterpiece of my otherwise undistinguished career. *For those wondering, I'm in a dynasty league with several other ES members. Glen Coffee, former 49ers RB, was a rookie draft pick of mine that someone else really wanted. I wound up flipping him for a player and a pick. Two months later, Coffee announced he had lost his passion for the game and retired, and the other guy in the league was left holding a bag of ****. I still haven't let him forget about it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Forehead Posted January 9, 2015 Author Share Posted January 9, 2015 But as Scot ever stepped into a situation with a rabid fan type owner like Dan? Dan bleeds burgundy and gold. I have no doubt Scot can succeed. But Dan the Fan needs to just sit back with all of us and enjoy the rebuild. I don't know how rabid fan they are, but the York family in SF is a known **** show, aren't they? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boss_Hogg Posted January 9, 2015 Share Posted January 9, 2015 I don't know how rabid fan they are, but the York family in SF is a known **** show, aren't they? Not sure about the Yorks, but Eddie DeBartalo was Dan Snyder before Dan Snyder. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkinsHokieFan Posted January 9, 2015 Share Posted January 9, 2015 He is killing it on 980 right now Talking about drafts and really talking about quality, good, players who are above average, over achieve and believe in each other Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
London Kev Posted January 9, 2015 Share Posted January 9, 2015 Awesome stuff, thanks for doing the research. Going by your scoring system you get a 2, would of been a 3 but you lost a point cos of that disturbing sig. I think it goes to show that the man aint perfect, but evaluation is an imperfect science so I s'pose that's to be expected. If he can improve our team as he has for Seattle and San Fran then I would be more than happy. I believe that this is a major turning point for us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stoox Posted January 9, 2015 Share Posted January 9, 2015 There are some good moves here, a little bit of a foundation, but San Francisco ultimately was never better than 8-8 during this time. It should be noted that in the two drafts after he left, the 49ers drafted Anthony Davis, Mike Iupati, NaVorro Bowman, Aldon Smith, and Colin Kaepernick. Overall, this doesn't scream "must hire" to me. I would give McCloughan the majority of the credit for SF's 2010 draft (Davis, Iupati, Bowman). He left the org just before it happened, and would have led the evaluations and the big board. I really don't think Baalke (a week or two into his job) would have strayed too far from the list/priorities that McCloughan finalized. So I think he needs to get better marks for San Fran... Drafting is like investing. It doesn't look like you have much for years, and then all of a sudden you wake up one day, and you're sitting on a pile of assets... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Forehead Posted January 9, 2015 Author Share Posted January 9, 2015 I would give McCloughan the majority of the credit for SF's 2010 draft (Davis, Iupati, Bowman). He left the org just before it happened, and would have led the evaluations and the big board. I really don't think Baalke (a week or two into his job) would have strayed too far from the list/priorities that McCloughan finalized. I would agree, but the problem I ran into was that he was almost immediately hired by Seattle, and was in their front office for the 2010 draft. I didn't feel like I could give him credit for both, and Seattle crushed the 2010 draft even more than San Francisco, so it works out for him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ExoDus84 Posted January 9, 2015 Share Posted January 9, 2015 One thing to note: Per John Keim, McClou might not have total personnel authority until 2008. This was on Keim's post about Mike Nolan: It’s not as if McCloughan had final say over the roster or even over personnel moves; that power the first three years belonged to Nolan (he was stripped of the GM duties after the 2007 season http://espn.go.com/blog/washington-redskins/post/_/id/14576/mike-nolan-raves-about-scot-mccloughan?utm_medium=twitter&utm_source=twitterfeed If this is the case, then 2008+ is when our GM had total control, which happened to be right at the time SF started getting really good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
757niner Posted January 9, 2015 Share Posted January 9, 2015 I'm not here to instigate, I'm here to educate so bare with me... The OP, like many before him, has given Scotty Mac WAAAAAY too much credit for the success of the Niners in his time there. I can't speak on his time in Seattle but as a die-hard Niner fan, its been common place for ppl to associate him with some of the players drafted while he was with the Niners. The fact is Mike Nolan handled the GM duties until he was stripped of those powers before the 2008 season. HE had final say over personnel and the drafts in 2005, 2006, and 2007. He drafted Frank Gore, Vernon Davis, Joe Staley, Patrick Willis, etc. Scotty Mac was named the GM after Nolan was stripped of those duties and he had sole personnel control over the drafts in 2008 and 2009. He was relieved of his duties due to 'personal issues'(he had/has a drinking problem) and Baalke was named interim GM for the 2010 season and he handle the drafts and personnel for that year and ever since. Here's a link of me breaking down McCloughan's drafts on the Hawks board. Its the next to last post on the last page(3) http://www.seahawks.net/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=66547&start=100 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bishop Hammer Posted January 12, 2015 Share Posted January 12, 2015 Whooo; bro I can tell you put a lot of work and research into this. Thanks for the info. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pjfootballer Posted January 12, 2015 Share Posted January 12, 2015 One thing that worries me with our fanbase is the expectation that this guy has to be perfect with all his picks. He's going to hit on some and miss on some. As long as he hits on more than he misses, brings in the quality type players he says he wants and builds a foundation, that is what we've wanted and needed. The most important thing he can bring to the team is competency in the FO and the way we do business. I'm not looking for perfection from this guy, I'm looking for a complete change if direction in our business model and philosophy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
veteranskinsfan Posted January 12, 2015 Share Posted January 12, 2015 My hope is that he gets better each year with his picks and with finding guys from other teams that get released. Fans need to be patient because he cannot rebuild our team in his first year. I like the fact he will evaluate the current scouts by working with them on this draft so he can decide who he wants to keep and which scouts he wants to let go and bring in guys he has worked with from the 49ers or Seahawks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HTTRDynasty Posted January 12, 2015 Share Posted January 12, 2015 I'm not here to instigate, I'm here to educate so bare with me... The OP, like many before him, has given Scotty Mac WAAAAAY too much credit for the success of the Niners in his time there. I can't speak on his time in Seattle but as a die-hard Niner fan, its been common place for ppl to associate him with some of the players drafted while he was with the Niners. The fact is Mike Nolan handled the GM duties until he was stripped of those powers before the 2008 season. HE had final say over personnel and the drafts in 2005, 2006, and 2007. He drafted Frank Gore, Vernon Davis, Joe Staley, Patrick Willis, etc. Scotty Mac was named the GM after Nolan was stripped of those duties and he had sole personnel control over the drafts in 2008 and 2009. He was relieved of his duties due to 'personal issues'(he had/has a drinking problem) and Baalke was named interim GM for the 2010 season and he handle the drafts and personnel for that year and ever since. Here's a link of me breaking down McCloughan's drafts on the Hawks board. Its the next to last post on the last page(3) http://www.seahawks.net/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=66547&start=100 No one is saying that SM had full control from 05-07. However, he still had significant input on who would be drafted: “Frank Gore was somebody he wanted really bad,” said Mike Nolan, who was then San Francisco’s head coach and McCloughan’s boss at the time. “He’s the one that did all the legwork on players and brought it to me and if there was anyone he was sold on, it was Frank. When I saw him I loved him too, but he knew him inside and out. Everything about Frank, he was convinced he was a good fit. http://espn.go.com/blog/washington-redskins/post/_/id/14576/mike-nolan-raves-about-scot-mccloughan The part that I put in bold is the important part here. Even without final say, it can be argued that someone like McCloughan, who did "all the legwork", had an equal or greater impact than Nolan did on who the 49ers targeted in the draft. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheLongshot Posted January 12, 2015 Share Posted January 12, 2015 No one is saying that SM had full control from 05-07. However, he still had significant input on who would be drafted: http://espn.go.com/blog/washington-redskins/post/_/id/14576/mike-nolan-raves-about-scot-mccloughan The part that I put in bold is the important part here. Even without final say, it can be argued that someone like McCloughan, who did "all the legwork", had an equal or greater impact than Nolan did on who the 49ers targeted in the draft. Hard to say that, particularly when Nolan picked Smith over Rodgers because of a perceived attitude problem. Course, given how Nolan treated Smith, I don't know if Rodgers would have done much better. Bad teams are usually bad for a reason. http://www.bayareasportsguy.com/despite-mike-nolans-best-efforts-alex-smith-is-still-a-starting-nfl-qb/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Koolblue13 Posted January 12, 2015 Share Posted January 12, 2015 Damn Pho, haven't seen you post that much since the karate kid remake came out. Ols Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
justice98 Posted January 12, 2015 Share Posted January 12, 2015 I'm just hoping he's not overdue for a slip up. He hit home runs in the first two spots, is this the place where he gets humbled? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Taft Posted January 12, 2015 Share Posted January 12, 2015 Good read. It would be interesting to dig further and compare the relative strengths of the rosters to the rest of the NFL at the time and more importantly the relative strength of the rosters to the NFC West/NFC East respectively. Afterall, it doesn't matter how the '04 49ers/'09 Seahawks/'14 Redskins compare to each other, but how they compared to their peers. '04-'10 were some very lean years in the NFC West, so while McCloughan may have walked into some perceived tough spots based on roster talent, he faced a horrible division. The NFC East hasn't been great, but Dallas appears to be peaking, and the Eagles at 10-6 were far better than any second place team in the NFC West during that time period. In other words, getting the 'Skins out of the basement is probably a bigger challenge. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FrFan Posted January 12, 2015 Share Posted January 12, 2015 McCloughan doesn’t anticipate immediate changes to scouting departmentI'm wondering what is going to happen to Instictive scouting ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TSO Posted January 13, 2015 Share Posted January 13, 2015 I mentioned this in another thread, but I'm dying to know what his resumé looks like with undrafted rookie FAs or guys he plucked off other team's practice squads. I might just go through it myself when I have the time to do so. I know that it's tough to attribute every player to him, but I think it'll be real interesting to see how the general work he was involved with there compares to our recent past. We haven't really found many undrafted gems for some time now. I think Darryl Young is clearly the only one on the team now. Brandon Banks had a decent stretch as a returner. Not very good either way, though I'd expect that to be the case for most teams. My hope is that we find he hit on a few more than us more consistently. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Riggo'sRangers Posted January 13, 2015 Share Posted January 13, 2015 I'm not here to instigate, I'm here to educate so bare with me... The OP, like many before him, has given Scotty Mac WAAAAAY too much credit for the success of the Niners in his time there. I can't speak on his time in Seattle but as a die-hard Niner fan, its been common place for ppl to associate him with some of the players drafted while he was with the Niners. The fact is Mike Nolan handled the GM duties until he was stripped of those powers before the 2008 season. HE had final say over personnel and the drafts in 2005, 2006, and 2007. He drafted Frank Gore, Vernon Davis, Joe Staley, Patrick Willis, etc. Scotty Mac was named the GM after Nolan was stripped of those duties and he had sole personnel control over the drafts in 2008 and 2009. He was relieved of his duties due to 'personal issues'(he had/has a drinking problem) and Baalke was named interim GM for the 2010 season and he handle the drafts and personnel for that year and ever since. Here's a link of me breaking down McCloughan's drafts on the Hawks board. Its the next to last post on the last page(3) http://www.seahawks.net/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=66547&start=100 Wow. McClueless, McDouble, McChicken, McMuffin, and McCafe....so how do you REALLY feel about McCloughan? You can express an opinion without being totally disrespectful. I really couldn't take the post seriously because of the obvious lack of objectivity and venom. He will not be perfect, and will probably miss more than he hits, but I'll still take it. HTTR Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cooleyfan1993 Posted January 13, 2015 Share Posted January 13, 2015 Wow. McClueless, McDouble, McChicken, McMuffin, and McCafe....so how do you REALLY feel about McCloughan? You can express an opinion without being totally disrespectful. I really couldn't take the post seriously because of the obvious lack of objectivity and venom. He will not be perfect, and will probably miss more than he hits, but I'll still take it. HTTR he called him mcclueless? and mcmuffin? and mccafe? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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