Sacks 'n' Stuff Posted October 13, 2014 Share Posted October 13, 2014 He came into the league with no football experience whatsoever. Never played, coached, certainly never worked in college or the NFL. After only ten years, he realized that he shouldn't be the GM. Put him in the ring of honor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DC9 Posted October 13, 2014 Share Posted October 13, 2014 It is incredible how the guy before found every big name before they became a big name Sparky Anderson. Jerry West. Bobby Beathard. Joe Gibbs How many owners in sports history had that kind of success across different sports? We never had a ton of "Super Players" (according to the HOF anyway ) under Beathard and Gibbs I, it was more of a "Super Team". Add in the lack of a salary cap in those days and **** got CRAZY for the rich. But I regress... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Robert Griffin Experience Posted October 13, 2014 Share Posted October 13, 2014 I think Dan Snyder, as much as he tries to be a good owner, is flat out in over his head. Even more in over his head as Jim Zorn was. The fundamental difference between Danny and other owners is that other NFL owners are successful businessmen and business women They've built or helped built organizations. Robert Kraft. Art Rooney. The Maras (fun fact: The Rooneys and Maras are essentially the same family). Look at literally every other team owner. As the OP stated, Dan Snyder was more or less a business failure. Then he won the lottery. Most lottery winners lose it all within a decade. Dan Snyder, however, bought the Washington Redskins, which for the most part is failure proof. Now, Snyder means well, and he cares. But he sucks at building an organization. So we need him to luck out again and find a guy who can do it for him. Bruce Allen has the skill and expertise (ignore the fact that he sucks at scouting, you can hire guys for that) to build the organization but he also has a BIG BIG BIG BIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIG nepotism problem. That's why Scott Campbell and Morocco Brown stay. That's why Jim Haslett stays. That's why we spend multiple picks on OL (which unless you're drafting clear athletic studs in the 1st, is actually a hard position to project) and get nothing out of them unless we draft them in the 1st round, and you shouldn't need to do that. The fact that Dallas needed 3 first rounders to build a stud OL is a burning indictment of their scouting quality, even if Stephen Jones does have his head in the right place in regards to priorities. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elkabong82 Posted October 13, 2014 Share Posted October 13, 2014 Ask the 4-1 Cards how are they handling the missing/injured players this year with Arians being an interim coach last year. Daryl Washington, Jonathan Dwyer, Carson Palmer, Calais Campbell, Darnell Dockett, Matt Shaughnessy, Dave Zastudil, John Abraham, Troy Niklas, Glenn Carson. Right, because clearly if 1 team can be successful despite injuries then it means injuries don't have an impact. Arians was interim coach on the Colts, he was hired by the Cards because of his success as interim coach on the Colts (because HC had cancer), and he took over a Ken Whisenhunt-led and built team that was held back mostly by the QB position. He's not in year 1, inheriting a 3-13 team crippled by a BS cap penalty. and his team isn't built for longevity. Many key players on offense and defense are old and last time we were in that situation fans were livid about it. Abraham, Dockett, Fitzgerald, Palmer, Foote, Kelly, heck even Cromartie all 30+ years old. Add on top their star RB is fast but very injury prone and questionable if he can last a full season. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DC9 Posted October 13, 2014 Share Posted October 13, 2014 Oh and you totally stole your thesis from me. Jerk Yeah, someone basically made this same OP last year about not being able to hire an exec. Almost to a "t". Even mentioned the failed businesses, etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theTruthTeller Posted October 13, 2014 Share Posted October 13, 2014 Yeah, someone basically made this same OP last year about not being able to hire an exec. Almost to a "t". Even mentioned the failed businesses, etc. I envy people who can remember what was posted last year. I don't even remember what I posted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DC9 Posted October 13, 2014 Share Posted October 13, 2014 I think Dan Snyder, as much as he tries to be a good owner, is flat out in over his head. Even more in over his head as Jim Zorn was. The fundamental difference between Danny and other owners is that other NFL owners are successful businessmen and business women They've built or helped built organizations. Robert Kraft. Art Rooney. The Maras (fun fact: The Rooneys and Maras are essentially the same family). Look at literally every other team owner. Yeah, the ONE TRULY interesting thing I ever heard on Lavar Arrington's show was how he talked about the Mara's and what they did for with their kids. He said that when they were young the Mara's would have their kids working with the equipment guys and the grounds crews so that they appreciated every aspect of the organization. And obviously as the kids got older, they would explore parts of the franchise with greater responsibility in terms of ownership. I'm sure the Rooney's do it the same way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elkabong82 Posted October 13, 2014 Share Posted October 13, 2014 If Gruden and Allen had come in and taken the team in a different direction, I'd be willing to let things play out a little longer. I have no idea who is really making player decisions, but re-signing Orakpo at $11M, adding Jackson and adding Hatcher were decisions a team makes to move to the next level right away, not build for the future. Individually, I like all three of the players. But they sucked up a lot of short term money for a team that doesn't have much good to look forward to in the short term. The vast majority of NFL games are competitive, at least by ES standards of "competitive". Being competitive isn't really that telling when you consistently take second place in a football game regardless of the talent of the other team. If you're truly competitive, you should win half those games. I agree about Orakpo. Before the tag I was saying to just let him walk. Hatcher was a cap-friendly deal, and D-Jax is making this offense worthwhile and his deal was cap-friendly too. Hatcher likely was a patch given his age, but DJax has a bunch of good seasons still. We were truly competitive. Losses don't negate competitiveness. It would be one thing if were being outclassed completely in every game like the Jags and Titans in most games. But we are in it in the 4th quarter, save for 1 game. As I said in another post, I truly believe with RG3 in that some of the loses are wins. But year 1 of an inherited 3-13 team with a back-up QB and a rash of injuries, actually considering all that it's crazy that we aren't getting blown out every single game. I want to see how the team does with RG3 in there and also what this regime does with another offseason. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DJD2 Posted October 13, 2014 Share Posted October 13, 2014 Excellent post. I would add: Snyder bought his way into an exclusive club and has been enamored by the access it has afforded him with stars on his own team. He hasn't realized that just having money doesn't automatically guarantee success, and by continuing the cronyism all it will do is perpetuate the dysfunction. I don't believe it is in his nature to really step back and let a real football mind take the reins. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DC9 Posted October 13, 2014 Share Posted October 13, 2014 In summary, the GMs for the past 2 NFC super bowl representatives were plucked either directly (in the case of Baalke - GM of the team that has been to 4 straight NFC championship games) or indirectly (in the case of Schneider, who was taken by Green Bay, another excellent organization, prior to moving to the current Super Bowl champs). In 2001, we had Marty Schottenheimer as coach, Trent Baalke as head college scout, and John Schneider as head of player personnel. We should have been set for the next decade plus. EDIT: Holy formatting.... Damn... if only they would've changed their last names to Murphy (damn...), Mackenzie (I mean...), Baugh or Allen or something like that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elkabong82 Posted October 13, 2014 Share Posted October 13, 2014 Yeah, the ONE TRULY interesting thing I ever heard on Lavar Arrington's show was how he talked about the Mara's and what they did for with their kids. He said that when they were young the Mara's would have their kids working with the equipment guys and the grounds crews so that they appreciated every aspect of the organization. And obviously as the kids got older, they would explore parts of the franchise with greater responsibility in terms of ownership. I'm sure the Rooney's do it the same way. I think that is very smart to ensure good family ownership. However you just know if Snyder did that here the ComPost would be running stories of him being so cheap he's exploiting his own children for cheap labor, lol. Excellent post. I would add: Snyder bought his way into an exclusive club and has been enamored by the access it has afforded him with stars on his own team. He hasn't realized that just having money doesn't automatically guarantee success, and by continuing the cronyism all it will do is perpetuate the dysfunction. I don't believe it is in his nature to really step back and let a real football mind take the reins. He's tried just about everything else. Have to think, or at least hope, if this group doesn't work out he tries the last option he hasn't done, which is poach a young exec from a great team and make him GM and let him run things. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chipwhich Posted October 13, 2014 Share Posted October 13, 2014 But ultimately most people do not understand what functional organizational hierarchy means. Well some of us said this at the time of the Shanny Allen hiring. You kind of get tired of saying it over and over. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Voice_of_Reason Posted October 13, 2014 Share Posted October 13, 2014 I think if Snyder had any idea how to fix the team, he'd do it. Here's the thing: When he bought the team, he was 30-something years old. He also inherited a team that had ranged from awful to mediocre from 1993-1998. With a couple real stinker seasons thrown in. And he thought, through force of personality, he could get things changed around. And the first year of his ownership, the team won the division title. And I think that caused Snyder to puff his chest out a little bit. "I'm the savior. This team has stunk. Clearly I know how to motivate guys to be better." In 2000, Norv typically struggles to win games. He's out. Terry Robiski in. THIS HAS GOT TO WORK! Norv was holding us back. (Which he probably was. But Robiski was not the answer) Ok, what's next? Marty! Buddy! You crushed me on TV. But this team needs a strong hand. I'll give you anything you want! THIS HAS GOT TO WORK! 0-5. Oh-no. Finish 8-8. "Marty, I think you need some personnel help." Marty says no. Dan fires him. What's next? Steve! Buddy! Best offensive mind in college! How 'bout them gators! You'll love it here. THIS HAS GOT TO WORK! And I'll even bring back Vinny to get you players! I think Dan ABSOLUTELY believed that he was getting the next Jimmy Johnson. And that failed miserably. What's next? Joe Gibbs! Hallelujah. The savior has returned. Coach Joe, I'll get you anything you want. THIS HAS GOT TO WORK!! But that was tragically cut short with ST was murdered, and Gibbs retired a second time. What's next? Vinny! You're the guy. I'm putting you in charge. THIS HAS GOT TO WORK!! (This is the weakest of the "has got to work" moves.) Clearly it didn't. What's next? Mike! Buddy! You've won 2 SBs. I'll give you anything you want. How about Bruce as your GM type? Ok? I'll get him. This has GOT TO WORK! It didn't. What's next? Bruce! You're a lifeline Redskin! I mean, you were LITERALLY raised on the sidelines. THIS HAS GOT TO WORK! Well, juries still out. But not going in a great direction. I personally think Dan would try anything to win. I really do. I just don't think he knows what to do. I think he suffers from needing to be around guys he trusts, but can't find a good guy that he trusts that also knows football. My .02 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theTruthTeller Posted October 13, 2014 Share Posted October 13, 2014 I agree about Orakpo. Before the tag I was saying to just let him walk. Hatcher was a cap-friendly deal, and D-Jax is making this offense worthwhile and his deal was cap-friendly too. Hatcher likely was a patch given his age, but DJax has a bunch of good seasons still. I agree that Hatcher and Jackson were good deals for good players. But its like buying a sweet set of rims for $2000 and not being able to drive your car because you can't afford to replace the cracked engine block. They had already put money down on a good long term addition to the receiving corps. Sometimes you just need to say no to a good deal. Hatcher is a good man, but at 32, I don't envision him holding the Lombardi trophy over his head. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daveakl Posted October 13, 2014 Share Posted October 13, 2014 I researched Snyders business side the season Bruce was hired and we got rid of Zorn. If I remember correctly his business dealings have all failed except the one he sold which ended up bankrupting the company that purchased it. He has a horrible track record of being a leader and if you talk to anyone that has worked for/with him you either kiss his ass and have a position for life in the inner circle or disagree with him and write your own death sentence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alexa Posted October 13, 2014 Share Posted October 13, 2014 I think Dan Snyder, as much as he tries to be a good owner, is flat out in over his head. Even more in over his head as Jim Zorn was. The fundamental difference between Danny and other owners is that other NFL owners are successful businessmen and business women They've built or helped built organizations. Robert Kraft. Art Rooney. The Maras (fun fact: The Rooneys and Maras are essentially the same family). Look at literally every other team owner. As the OP stated, Dan Snyder was more or less a business failure. Then he won the lottery. Most lottery winners lose it all within a decade. Dan Snyder, however, bought the Washington Redskins, which for the most part is failure proof. Now, Snyder means well, and he cares. But he sucks at building an organization. So we need him to luck out again and find a guy who can do it for him. Bruce Allen has the skill and expertise (ignore the fact that he sucks at scouting, you can hire guys for that) to build the organization but he also has a BIG BIG BIG BIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIG nepotism problem. That's why Scott Campbell and Morocco Brown stay. That's why Jim Haslett stays. That's why we spend multiple picks on OL (which unless you're drafting clear athletic studs in the 1st, is actually a hard position to project) and get nothing out of them unless we draft them in the 1st round, and you shouldn't need to do that. The fact that Dallas needed 3 first rounders to build a stud OL is a burning indictment of their scouting quality, even if Stephen Jones does have his head in the right place in regards to priorities. How did he win the lottery? Any person that's made it in business has had lumps along the way. Yeah Snyder lost money on Campus USA but he helped build Snyder Communications ( with his sister) into a billion dollar company. The past is the past but currently he's trying to bring in the right people with Shanahan and now letting Allen take over. He's not blameless but I also think he's grown a bit as an owner. Also we see nepotism all around the league all the time. Heck Gibbs 2 had all the old gang back here when some of them should have stayed retired. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Robert Griffin Experience Posted October 13, 2014 Share Posted October 13, 2014 Excellent post. I would add: Snyder bought his way into an exclusive club and has been enamored by the access it has afforded him with stars on his own team. He hasn't realized that just having money doesn't automatically guarantee success, and by continuing the cronyism all it will do is perpetuate the dysfunction. I don't believe it is in his nature to really step back and let a real football mind take the reins. It's not that he's not stepping back. It's that he doesn't know how to build the organization that would make stepping back successful, nor does he know how to actually FIND a real football mind that could take the reins. Bruce Allen is the closest thing we've had to that, but again he has a nepotism problem. And then, keep in mind that he wouldn't know how to, beyond looking at their resume, identify what would make someone a qualified hire. Does this not sound like a qualified GM hire to you? - Recruiter for a national championship college team - Director of College Scouting for a perennially successful team that won a Super Bowl within 3 years of him joining the team, drafting multiple Pro Bowlers in that stretch, several of them Hall of Fame caliber - Director of Player Personnel for that same team which continued to have success Do you see the problem now with the idea of "find a real football guy"? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NewCliche21 Posted October 13, 2014 Share Posted October 13, 2014 VoR, you nailed it. Just nailed it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DC9 Posted October 13, 2014 Share Posted October 13, 2014 I think that is very smart to ensure good family ownership. However you just know if Snyder did that here the ComPost would be running stories of him being so cheap he's exploiting his own children for cheap labor, lol. No doubt the press here is unique... as Ryan Clark is finding out/being reminded of. If it's done without fan fair then I don't see why they would. That's not our style, as you saw yesterday with the Navajo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chipwhich Posted October 13, 2014 Share Posted October 13, 2014 Building a business to a billion dollars in revenue and selling it for 2 billion isn't a failed business. It's genius. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DC9 Posted October 13, 2014 Share Posted October 13, 2014 He has a horrible track record of being a leader and if you talk to anyone that has worked for/with him you either kiss his ass and have a position for life in the inner circle or disagree with him and write your own death sentence. I remember when we hired Tony Wylie... he had all of these awards from the NFL and was "NFL PR Person of the Year Guy" and was very highly regarded. I don't think he went six months before we went into the whole Dave McKenna issue which was botched royally. That's honestly when the wake up call to me happened. How could this PR guy, who is so highly regarded in the NFL, show up here and have a blunder like that? His advice wasn't being taken into account... he was given orders and executed them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elkabong82 Posted October 13, 2014 Share Posted October 13, 2014 I agree that Hatcher and Jackson were good deals for good players. But its like buying a sweet set of rims for $2000 and not being able to drive your car because you can't afford to replace the cracked engine block. They had already put money down on a good long term addition to the receiving corps. Sometimes you just need to say no to a good deal. Hatcher is a good man, but at 32, I don't envision him holding the Lombardi trophy over his head. Yeah but Hatcher is DL so can play for 4 more seasons after this. DJax has speed so can play for 6-7 more seasons. In the NFL that is longevity. Neither is a huge cap hit either. Hatcher is on a 4 year deal, likely retires after that, with an average of 6.8 mil. DJax is a 4 year deal with 6 mil per year. Rak is the problem. 11.5 million, which could be a top RT from free agency and maybe a guard who could make Chester irrelevant. A right side of the OL would be far more valuable than Orakpo's lack of making plays. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lombardi's_kid_brother Posted October 13, 2014 Author Share Posted October 13, 2014 Oh and you totally stole your thesis from me. Jerk Good writers borrow; great writers steal. I don't think this is a terribly original thought though. SHF and I have been hashing this out - back and forth - since the Zorn years, I think. You probably stole it from us and then dumped it in your corporate lingo blender. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elkabong82 Posted October 13, 2014 Share Posted October 13, 2014 No doubt the press here is unique... as Ryan Clark is finding out/being reminded of. If it's done without fan fair then I don't see why they would. That's not our style, as you saw yesterday with the Navajo. Well to be fair we haven't been announcing all the charitable stuff and the Navajo yesterday wasn't announced either, just something noticed by the cameras. I do find it amusing so many name change folk, especially NAs, were saying Snyder should spend time with NAs, then when he does they say he is bribing them and they are sell outs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Voice_of_Reason Posted October 13, 2014 Share Posted October 13, 2014 Rak is the problem. 11.5 million, which could be a top RT from free agency and maybe a guard who could make Chester irrelevant. A right side of the OL would be far more valuable than Orakpo's lack of making plays. I agree with you in theory, but I don't remember who the RT and RG in FA were, at least who were available. I did the "wish I got that guy thread" and really, there weren't a lot of options regardless of the amount of money to spend. But I could be forgetting a guy or two. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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