Moving Towards our Future Front Office and Coaching Hires. All the Way to the Water Boy - Adam Peters Hired as GM! The Mighty Quinn is HC Kliff Kingsbury as OC. Joe Whitt jr at DC.

[RVAskins]

12 minutes ago, ThatNFLChick said:

Not taking advantage of matchups and not adjusting for the looks that the defense is giving you and providing more options for the QB is almost coaching malpractice at the NFL level in 2024 IMO. The system is basically just a small number of plays repeated over and over again and the same 1, 2, 3 reads. Did people see Macdonald's defense this year or the defense that Spags put together? How does such a simple system combat that? I feel like I am really missing something here with anyone being excited about Kinsbury implementing it.

This is something that concerns me too. I hate a gimmick offense. We may have some success early on, but defenses will catch on and learn to defend it. 

[Thinking Skins]

3 hours ago, Redwards said:

The worrisome thing is the Giants had several high picks on that line and none were developed.  That's a huge red flag.  

 

I think the spider-web entanglement here in terms of faith in this hire is basically the level of trust a fan has in Quinn and Kingsbury.   I don't distrust Quinn (I am a huge fan of his on a personal level and am rooting for him big time, not just because he's our coach, but he is earnest and desperately wanted this job) but I don't trust him either.  

 

And, just speaking for me, of course, I really don't trust the hire of Kingsbury.  The more and more I read about his offense and see interviews with media from Arizona who have covered him there, I get more nervous.   His offense to me seems borderline gimmicky and more smoke and mirrors than pure substance.  I'm seeing in interviews that he doesn't really adjust in-game, which is exactly the problem we had with EB.  He doesn't play the chess match.  Also, his offenses never finish all that high.  And, as has been mentioned here a ton, his offenses ALWAYS get figured out about 2/3rds of the way though the season and fall off a cliff with zero answer from Kliff.  That goes back to college as well.  

 

People say that if those guys don't produce, Quinn can fire them and hire a new OC, etc.  But the question then becomes two things: 

 

1.  How much rope will Quinn give his hires? 

2.  Can he get it right the next time (if needed).

 

I want to clarify that I'm not putting nails in coffins or predicting our doom.  Not at all.  I'm looking at this with a clear head...but, at this point after learning more about Kliff and looking at the horrific results in NY by Johnson and the lack of player development by him, I'm just extremely doubtful with regard to those offensive hires thus far.  Obviously, we gotta wait and see.  BUT...we better not ruin another high pick QB in the process.  This fanbase will go nuclear, and rightfully so.

 

 

 

The thing that gets me about the (offensive) hires is that they seem to go in the face of the physical approach that he spoke about at the press conference. Well, apart from the Bobby Johnson hire. If we're going to be doing a gimmacy new age run and shoot offense, its the opposite of physical. Maybe Billy Johnson or the new guy will make it more physical, but even in NY their run game wasn't physical it was all about speed. So if we are going to be built like SF or Baltimore, I'm not seeing it. Maybe the offense will be similar to SF, but I'm not quite seeing it. 

 

The other thing I'm hearing is that KK likes his linemen to be more athletic. Not small, but athletic. That did remind me of Shanahan though where he would wait til the lower rounds to draft linemen because he knew the kinds of linemen he wanted and they were zone blockers. Trent could block anywhere but others were guys who were undersized. If we go for undersized guys then we are not going for physical guys and will get overpowered by the bigger teams. 

[Kalu44]

23 minutes ago, ThatNFLChick said:

 

This is just.....

 

"The Air Raid is more a process than a playbook these days," Russo wrote. "Keeping things simple, stressing execution over matchups and seemingly endless repetition of a relatively small number of plays in practice are what links the Air Raid’s past and present."

 

“The offense is designed to be simpler,” Longo added. “It’s designed to be more flexible so that regardless of our talent base we have the flexibility in the offense to promote the more talented players.”

 

 

“The philosophy is to stay simple, spread teams out, horizontally pre-snap, vertically post-snap, and it really displace 11 defenders throughout the field as much as we possibly can.”

 

If there are drawbacks, it's that teams with elite corners can defend a "run to where the grass is" concept and the lack of structured route-running might pose a challenge for certain types of receivers. Plus, the running game doesn't receive the benefit of blocking from its wideouts, which theoretically inhibits the potential for long runs. Thirdly, that stigma against air raid athletes could discourage top-end quarterback talent in recruiting."

 

"So why hasn't air raid become more popular as an overall offense in the NFL? There's more than one reason, but strangely enough, the hash marks — which are much closer together in the NFL than in college — might have a decent amount to do with it. With the college hashes so much closer to the sideline, it creates a more lopsided field and more space on one side for offenses to operate."

 

I guess I get making things as simple as possible for college QBs (though a simplified system like this does not really set them up for success at the NFL level, there's a bigger learning curve like we saw with Howell).

 

Not taking advantage of matchups and not adjusting for the looks that the defense is giving you and providing more options for the QB is almost coaching malpractice at the NFL level in 2024 IMO. The system is basically just a small number of plays repeated over and over again and the same 1, 2, 3 reads. Did people see Macdonald's defense this year or the defense that Spags put together? How does such a simple system combat that? I feel like I am really missing something here with anyone being excited about Kinsbury implementing it.

I’m getting very depressed over the offense, and they haven’t even taken a pre-season snap yet. The D may have to play lights out, for the team to win games. 

[ThatNFLChick]

19 minutes ago, RVAskins said:

This is something that concerns me too. I hate a gimmick offense. We may have some success early on, but defenses will catch on and learn to defend it. 

 

I am really hoping Kliff has evolved. An offense with no motions, no shifts, no stacks, no bunches in the NFL in 2024? Nothing for your QB from under center? If you watched the NFL this year its not a coincidence that Jordan Love and that offense started playing way better when they started actualalIy putting him under center more.

 

Everyone loved and wanted Ben Johnson. The dude has his QB under center all the time. Tons of shifts, motions, etc. We hired someone who runs an offense that is the direct opposite of that. 

 

The only reason it looks like the Cardinals ran the ball more than they actually did was because Kyler inflated their rushing numbers 

 

 

 

Edited February 13 by ThatNFLChick

[Redwards]

1 hour ago, Thinking Skins said:

 

The thing that gets me about the (offensive) hires is that they seem to go in the face of the physical approach that he spoke about at the press conference. Well, apart from the Bobby Johnson hire. If we're going to be doing a gimmacy new age run and shoot offense, its the opposite of physical. Maybe Billy Johnson or the new guy will make it more physical, but even in NY their run game wasn't physical it was all about speed. So if we are going to be built like SF or Baltimore, I'm not seeing it. Maybe the offense will be similar to SF, but I'm not quite seeing it. 

 

The other thing I'm hearing is that KK likes his linemen to be more athletic. Not small, but athletic. That did remind me of Shanahan though where he would wait til the lower rounds to draft linemen because he knew the kinds of linemen he wanted and they were zone blockers. Trent could block anywhere but others were guys who were undersized. If we go for undersized guys then we are not going for physical guys and will get overpowered by the bigger teams. 

I've been thinking the exact same thing.

 

Quinn wants to be physical but hire's an OC who runs a scheme that is anything but physical. Makes no sense unless Kliff has revamped his new offense to be a truly physical one.  Maybe he has, who knows?  But so far,  I'm not liking how this is shaking out.  The only thing I can do is cross my fingers, but stuff like this is only reaffirming my doubts about Quinn being anything but a bridge HC.  He has the want-to and genuine desire but he's got a ton to prove for me to believe he's anything but a one-contract coach.  

 

I can easily see our defense becoming a top 5 unit while our gimmicky offense gets figured out relatively quick each year and continuing to be the black sheep of the team.  Obviously they haven't even played a down yet, but just speaking at this juncture after assessing the moves and qualifications of the people hired on offense, I'm not encouraged.  If anything, I more discouraged than I was when Quinn was first announced.

 

 I just pray this all works out because the years are passing by and I'm sick and tired of being a non-factor in the NFL.  Division titles mean absolutely nothing to me.  Super Bowls are the ONLY thing that means anything to me.  Championships are the only thing that matter in pro sports.  If you don't win it, you have a failed season.  Full stop.  None of this moral victory crap.  If you don't feel that way, then that person has no business being around pro sports.  31 teams in the NFL have a failed season every year.  I'm not getting the sense at this point that Quinn will remove us from that scrum.  Let's all hope for the best.

Edited February 13 by Redwards

[Redwards]

2 hours ago, ThatNFLChick said:

 

This is just.....

 

"The Air Raid is more a process than a playbook these days," Russo wrote. "Keeping things simple, stressing execution over matchups and seemingly endless repetition of a relatively small number of plays in practice are what links the Air Raid’s past and present."

 

“The offense is designed to be simpler,” Longo added. “It’s designed to be more flexible so that regardless of our talent base we have the flexibility in the offense to promote the more talented players.”

 

 

“The philosophy is to stay simple, spread teams out, horizontally pre-snap, vertically post-snap, and it really displace 11 defenders throughout the field as much as we possibly can.”

 

If there are drawbacks, it's that teams with elite corners can defend a "run to where the grass is" concept and the lack of structured route-running might pose a challenge for certain types of receivers. Plus, the running game doesn't receive the benefit of blocking from its wideouts, which theoretically inhibits the potential for long runs. Thirdly, that stigma against air raid athletes could discourage top-end quarterback talent in recruiting."

 

"So why hasn't air raid become more popular as an overall offense in the NFL? There's more than one reason, but strangely enough, the hash marks — which are much closer together in the NFL than in college — might have a decent amount to do with it. With the college hashes so much closer to the sideline, it creates a more lopsided field and more space on one side for offenses to operate."

 

I guess I get making things as simple as possible for college QBs (though a simplified system like this does not really set them up for success at the NFL level, there's a bigger learning curve like we saw with Howell).

 

Not taking advantage of matchups and not adjusting for the looks that the defense is giving you and providing more options for the QB is almost coaching malpractice at the NFL level in 2024 IMO. The system is basically just a small number of plays repeated over and over again and the same 1, 2, 3 reads. Did people see Macdonald's defense this year or the defense that Spags put together? How does such a simple system combat that? I feel like I am really missing something here with anyone being excited about Kinsbury implementing it.

That is depressing as hell.

 

Unless Kliff has drastically altered his system (and maybe he has, who knows?) this will not work.  You cannot be this simple in today's NFL and win consistently.  Maybe that's why Kliff never adjusts mid-game or in the back half of the season once he's been figured out - he simply can't.  

 

If we're running something very much like the above description, we're not long for a new OC or maybe even a new coach.  And we'll be screwing up our new QB in the process.  Man, I really wish we had ended up with Bevell.  I just don't think Quinn really thought this hire through, past the "He was hard to go against" mantra.  I really wish Kliff would have a presser soon so that he can answer these questions, assuming our local media asks them.

Edited February 13 by Redwards

[Riggo#44]

9 minutes ago, Redwards said:

That is depressing as hell.

There was also a report that Kingsbury is obsessed with offense that he is constantly diagramming plays and his mind is always working. 
 

So maybe just take a breath and let them throw a pass first?

[Redwards]

Just now, Riggo#44 said:

There was also a report that Kingsbury is obsessed with offense that he is constantly diagramming plays and his mind is always working. 
 

So maybe just take a breath and let them throw a pass first?

They've been saying that for years.  And the results are mediocre.  

 

I stated that perhaps he has significantly changed his system.  He better have.  However, if he hasn't, there's legit reason AND precedent to be worried.  It's not panic when the past results are right there to see. 

[Commander Adama]

3 minutes ago, Riggo#44 said:

There was also a report that Kingsbury is obsessed with offense that he is constantly diagramming plays and his mind is always working. 
 

So maybe just take a breath and let them throw a pass first?

[skinny21]

Lot of discouraging info getting churned out regarding the offense.  Made me start speculating as to why Quinn would go this route, particularly given he seemed to put so much into figuring out what he’d do differently if given a second opportunity as a HC.  Best I can come up with is…

 

1) all 3 of the top prospects, as well as Howell, have experience in the system.  In other words, the scheme should allow whoever our qb is to hit the ground running as it were.

2) if the qb has a head start within the scheme, it might be easier to then hone in on the other aspects of qbing as needed - mechanics, reading defenses, etc.

2) Kingsbury is creative/innovative and Quinn has seen defense adapt/change over a short span of time.  An offense that can regularly feature new wrinkles could make life that much harder for defenses.

3) Bobby Johnson has experience in both the Air Raid and other offenses, so might have more of a chance of blending styles.  Brian Johnson brings an outside view as well (as does Pritchard, working under both Coryell and West Coast systems).

 

So, taking those pieces together, perhaps the plan is to start fast with whoever our qb is, including addressing their weaknesses, then over time start to incorporate other elements we’re worried about.  Not a plan that gives me the warm and fuzzies, but hopefully there’s some sort of method to the madness…

[ThatNFLChick]

 

[ThatNFLChick]

Just now, skinny21 said:

Lot of discouraging info getting churned out regarding the offense.  Made me start speculating as to why Quinn would go this route, particularly given he seemed to put so much into figuring out what he’d do differently if given a second opportunity as a HC.  Best I can come up with is…

 

1) all 3 of the top prospects, as well as Howell, have experience in the system.  In other words, the scheme should allow whoever our qb is to hit the ground running as it were.

2) if the qb has a head start within the scheme, it might be easier to then hone in on the other aspects of qbing as needed - mechanics, reading defenses, etc.

2) Kingsbury is creative/innovative and Quinn has seen defense adapt/change over a short span of time.  An offense that can regularly feature new wrinkles could make life that much harder for defenses.

3) Bobby Johnson has experience in both the Air Raid and other offenses, so might have more of a chance of blending styles.  Brian Johnson brings an outside view as well (as does Pritchard, working under both Coryell and West Coast systems).

 

So, taking those pieces together, perhaps the plan is to start fast with whoever our qb is, including addressing their weaknesses, then over time start to incorporate other elements we’re worried about.  Not a plan that gives me the warm and fuzzies, but hopefully there’s some sort of method to the madness…

 

Daniels has the most limited experience in that system compared to the others. He played in it but it was for a short time (which is why I am now leaning towards him not being the pick). Williams, Howell and Maye played in it basically their entire college careers. 

 

But I agree with you, we seem to be leaning quite heavily on people who have Air Raid experience from Kingsbury to Johnson to David Raih so hopefully loading up on people who have experience will lessen the issues that I am predicting will happen midseason. 

[Riggo#44]

20 minutes ago, Redwards said:

They've been saying that for years.  And the results are mediocre.  

 

I stated that perhaps he has significantly changed his system.  He better have.  However, if he hasn't, there's legit reason AND precedent to be worried.  It's not panic when the past results are right there to see. 

Perhaps…

If…

Maybe…

 

[Kalu44]

17 minutes ago, skinny21 said:

Lot of discouraging info getting churned out regarding the offense.  Made me start speculating as to why Quinn would go this route, particularly given he seemed to put so much into figuring out what he’d do differently if given a second opportunity as a HC.  Best I can come up with is…

 

1) all 3 of the top prospects, as well as Howell, have experience in the system.  In other words, the scheme should allow whoever our qb is to hit the ground running as it were.

2) if the qb has a head start within the scheme, it might be easier to then hone in on the other aspects of qbing as needed - mechanics, reading defenses, etc.

2) Kingsbury is creative/innovative and Quinn has seen defense adapt/change over a short span of time.  An offense that can regularly feature new wrinkles could make life that much harder for defenses.

3) Bobby Johnson has experience in both the Air Raid and other offenses, so might have more of a chance of blending styles.  Brian Johnson brings an outside view as well (as does Pritchard, working under both Coryell and West Coast systems).

 

So, taking those pieces together, perhaps the plan is to start fast with whoever our qb is, including addressing their weaknesses, then over time start to incorporate other elements we’re worried about.  Not a plan that gives me the warm and fuzzies, but hopefully there’s some sort of method to the madness…

 

Great post, and that all makes sense connecting the dots. The question still remains though, even if everyone has a head start and is familiar with the system - the system by all accounts is just not that good. I'm hoping like everyone else here, there are some big changes to the system when we see it in action. 

Edited February 13 by Kalu44

[Skinsinparadise]

 

 

[ThatNFLChick]

 

 

[DeMarco Murray 29]

7 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

 

Can I interest you in one slightly used Mazi Smith as well? We will pay shipping but no returns 

[Commander Adama]

18 minutes ago, DeMarco Murray 29 said:

Can I interest you in one slightly used Mazi Smith as well? We will pay shipping but no returns 

Just as long as we don't get DeMarco Murray

[CapsSkins]

Do we have a DL coach yet?

[HigSkin]

 

Edited February 13 by HigSkin

[HigSkin]

9 minutes ago, CapsSkins said:

Do we have a DL coach yet?

 

That and RB coaches seem yet to be determined.  I assume Simmons is the DB's coach

Edited February 13 by HigSkin

[NickyJ]

Now that we've got Kingsbury and that OL coach I'd never heard of until he got signed here, I think it's fair to say this offseason was a disaster and Dan Quinn needs to be fired. I just hope he doesn't screw up the tank next season by winning a single game instead of going 0-17.

 

And worst of all, Peters approved this clown. Time to clean house.

Edited February 13 by NickyJ

[NYSkins21]

4 minutes ago, NickyJ said:

Now that we've got Kingsbury and that OL coach I'd never heard of until he got signed here, I think it's fair to say this offseason was a disaster and Dan Quinn needs to be fired. I just hope he doesn't screw up the tank next season by winning a single game instead of going 0-17.

 

And worst of all, Peters approved this clown. Time to clean house.

This is satire?

[NickyJ]

Just now, NYSkins21 said:

This is satire?

I watched a Youtube video and read a couple articles about Air Raid. I can say with absolute certainty that Air Raid is a gimmick and the worst thing to ever grace the NFL, and Kingsbury is incapable of learning from his one stint managing an NFL. The book on him and his philosophies was written over 4 years, and it's written in stone. The season is over.

[gooseneck]

3 minutes ago, NickyJ said:

I watched a Youtube video and read a couple articles about Air Raid. I can say with absolute certainty that Air Raid is a gimmick and the worst thing to ever grace the NFL, and Kingsbury is incapable of learning from his one stint managing an NFL. The book on him and his philosophies was written over 4 years, and it's written in stone. The season is over.

excellent- we should win the off-season next year, too.