Hamas Attacks Against Israel

[Renegade7]

18 minutes ago, tshile said:

it’s a double standard. People don’t have a problem pointing at the actions of a few at certain right wing protests and using it to generalize about everyone.

 

Weak.

 

Last I checked, no one accusing anybody of committing genocide against White Americans or the United States sending billions of dollar of military aid to do it.

 

Apples and Oranges from a why they even protesting standpoint to be nitpicking a out what a few of them are doing.

34 minutes ago, tshile said:

I understand what you’re saying - but I think it’s a bit disingenuous to pretend this is the only reason to write off disgruntled college students when it comes to a several decades long geopolitical cluster****. 
 

there are tons of things where that specific demo becomes eye roll worthy. Just like there are instances with the older generations that are eye roll worthy - or conservatives - or liberals. 
 

I think the demo we’re talking about does provide value in multiple ways. Especially on social issues that challenge the traditional norms of this country (racism, sexism, the lgbtq stuff) but this isn’t one of them (to me)

 

You disappointment.

 

You keep coming back to this being about jus the students, but even their teachers are coming out to support them now.

 

To requote myself, I didn't not specify the students in these protests in my posts, I was talking about the growing protests in these campuses general, USC has never been through this before, Speaker of the House jus went to Columbia University the other day:

 

16 hours ago, Renegade7 said:

Seeing USC cancel graduation over protests of this war.

 

When is it time to take these growing anti-war protests seriously as opposed to blowing them off?

 

Trying to stop them via force is of course creating more of them in solidarity.

[tshile]

6 minutes ago, Renegade7 said:

The question was on the protests...some of yall jumped to the conclusion this was jus aboutnignoring college students

Ok… I’ll accept this clarification and say that’s fair 

 

but, I think to continue to be fair, I’ll point out the sentence before the one I quote from you about taking protestors seriously and was

”Seeing USC cancel graduation over protests of this war.”

 

so, yes, I went forward believing we were talking about the college protestors. 
 

but in the general sense I appreciate protestors and take them seriously. There are certain details and context where I change that stance. 

[Renegade7]

2 minutes ago, tshile said:

Ok… I’ll accept this clarification and say that’s fair 

 

but, I think to continue to be fair, I’ll point out the sentence before the one I quote from you about taking protestors seriously and was

”Seeing USC cancel graduation over protests of this war.”

 

so, yes, I went forward believing we were talking about the college protestors. 
 

but in the general sense I appreciate protestors and take them seriously. There are certain details and context where I change that stance. 

 

I can dig it.

 

I'll back off and come back later, then.

[tshile]

28 minutes ago, Renegade7 said:

Weak.

 

Last I checked, no one accusing anybody of committing genocide against White Americans or the United States sending billions of dollar of military aid to do it.

 

Apples and Oranges from a why they even protesting standpoint to be nitpicking a out what a few of them are doing

this isn’t apples to oranges. It’s the same damn thing. Just because you throw genocide around here and use racism/sexism/fascism elsewhere doesn’t mean it’s not a double standard at its core. 
 

the bottom line is generally people engage in generalization when it suits them and point out and argue against generalization when it suits them. 
 

it’s a pretty core and easy to observe tactic in humans across all demos and topics. Because people are inherently lazy and generalizing and using labels is easy and convenient. 
 

That’s all I was pointing out. 
 

I’ve got no dog in this fight, despite what some people try to claim in their arguments. I don’t give a **** about either side, because both sides suck for a long list of reasons. If the USA didn’t send another dollar, I’m fine with it. It Israel wipes the Palestinians off the map - whatever, I totally understand why they’d do it. If is Middle East rallies to wipe Israel off the map - again, totally understand why they’d do it. 
 

im capable of being sad about it, or thinking it sucks, and wishing there was a path to peace, while also recognizing that what’s going on and more importantly why each side has their current motives. 
 

 im not going to ignore that these people willfully put a terrorist organization in charge. And said terrorist did what terrorists do, and the consequences are pretty ****ing predictable when you attack a vastly superior (militarily) country and kidnap their people. 
 

just like I’m not going to ignore that when you oppress people and take their land the way Israel has over decades, that you’re going to create a rise in terrorist organizations that seek to harm you in the worst ways they are capable of. 
 

just like I don’t ignore that 9/11 and Islamic terrorism and extremism in some/many not insignificant ways, is tied to our governments long history of ****ing around over there and our allegiance to Israel. 

im genuinely surprised Israel didn’t immediate wipe them off the map and claim 100% of Gaza as new land. From the start I figured this was the excuse they needed, and they wouldn’t wait for another opportunity. I figured they’d seize the moment and ask for forgiveness later. 

 

Edited April 26 by tshile

[tshile]

For comparison purposes if Mexico did to us what Hamas did we would have had our people back within a week and then spent the next few months debating what we’re going to do with this new land we just acquired (new states!), and also debating whether we take the rest of Mexico or just send it back to the Stone Age and let them have fun figuring out what to do with that. 
 

and the vast majority of the country would support that. 
 

Knowing/believing that, I have no interest in judging other people for behaving in exactly the same way (again, I believe) we would behave in that situation. 

And I feel pretty good about believing that’s how we’d behave, cause it’s basically what we spent the last 20 years doing in Iraq and Afghanistan. 
 

the key difference being those countries aren’t neighbors so instead of taking the land we tried to install a government we thought would be friendly to us. 

[PleaseBlitz]

I think a better comparison would be if a Mexican drug cartel launched an attack that killed a whole bunch of Americans.  We would definitely **** them up, and there would probably be a lot of collateral damage, but I don't think we'd try to starve the whole country or target aid workers and we wouldn't absorb Mexico.  Although it would be great if we did since hispanics tend to vote Dem. 

[ixcuincle]

USC didn't want none of the smoke and just flat out cancelled all graduation speeches

 

it sucks man. and listen the protests are fine, this is America, you can disagree all you want. That said, I do feel that this goes way beyond simply disagreeing with someone and goes straight into the harassment or disrputive territory. And we cannot let that stand

[Captain Wiggles]

9 minutes ago, PleaseBlitz said:

we wouldn't absorb Mexico.  

 

Maybe not the whole country. Just a good third of it like we did the last time. 🤭

[ixcuincle]

@Captain Wiggles I'm sorry but when these "protesters" are harassing Jewish people, crossing the line, and being violent then I cannot in good conscience support their protest. I hope you understand my objection to this.

 

Israel needs to watch out bombing certain places but Palestenians also have to be civil. You can disagree with Israel but do not attack other jews just because you disagree. This is not hard

 

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/university-protests-israel-hamas-war-gaza-arrests-campus/

 

The university police called city and state authorities after deciding that the initial group of protesters were not affiliated with Emory University based on their refusal to confirm their connections, Cheryl Elliott, the university's Vice President for Public Safety, said in a statement Thursday evening, adding that the individual who was tased also "is not a member of the Emory community."

"Due to the direct assault of officers, law enforcement released chemical irritants into the ground to assist with crowd control," Elliot said.

At 7:41 a.m. a few dozen protestors arrived on campus. When they arrived, these individuals ignored and pushed past EPD officers stationed on the Quad and set up tents in an area where equipment and materials were staged for Commencement. Based on their actions and refusal to confirm their connection to Emory, EPD made the assessment that these individuals were not Emory community members.

 

[quote]Students protesting the Israel-Hamas war are demanding schools cut financial ties to Israel and divest from companies enabling its monthslong conflict. Some Jewish students say the protests have veered into antisemitism and made them afraid to set foot on campus as graduation nears, partly prompting a heavier hand from universities.[/quote]

 

 

 

Edited April 26 by ixcuincle

[Renegade7]

1 hour ago, tshile said:

this isn’t apples to oranges. It’s the same damn thing. Just because you throw genocide around here and use racism/sexism/fascism elsewhere doesn’t mean it’s not a double standard at its core. 
 

the bottom line is generally people engage in generalization when it suits them and point out and argue against generalization when it suits them. 
 

it’s a pretty core and easy to observe tactic in humans across all demos and topics. Because people are inherently lazy and generalizing and using labels is easy and convenient. 
 

That’s all I was pointing out.

 

Take your own advice and stop generalizing me when responding to my posts then.  I'm not everyone, I'm an individual you are debating with here.

 

Chill.  Stop being the hero pointing out a damn thing, it makes you look like a villian instead on this one.

 

Quote

I’ve got no dog in this fight, despite what some people try to claim in their arguments. I don’t give a **** about either side, because both sides suck for a long list of reasons. If the USA didn’t send another dollar, I’m fine with it. It Israel wipes the Palestinians off the map - whatever, I totally understand why they’d do it. If is Middle East rallies to wipe Israel off the map - again, totally understand why they’d do it.

 

im capable of being sad about it, or thinking it sucks, and wishing there was a path to peace, while also recognizing that what’s going on and more importantly why each side has their current motives.

 im not going to ignore that these people willfully put a terrorist organization in charge. And said terrorist did what terrorists do, and the consequences are pretty ****ing predictable when you attack a vastly superior (militarily) country and kidnap their people.

 

just like I’m not going to ignore that when you oppress people and take their land the way Israel has over decades, that you’re going to create a rise in terrorist organizations that seek to harm you in the worst ways they are capable of.

just like I don’t ignore that 9/11 and Islamic terrorism and extremism in some/many not insignificant ways, is tied to our governments long history of ****ing around over there and our allegiance to Israel.

 

 

This is too long a post to be claiming you dont care about this issue or the people protesting our country's current official policy and actions on it.

 

Pick one.

 

Quote

im genuinely surprised Israel didn’t immediate wipe them off the map and claim 100% of Gaza as new land. From the start I figured this was the excuse they needed, and they wouldn’t wait for another opportunity. I figured they’d seize the moment and ask for forgiveness later.

 

Not all genocide are as obvious as the concentration camps in the holocaust.

 

What you just described is very similar to what happened to the Rohyinga:

 

https://www.unicef.org/emergencies/rohingya-crisis

 

If folks like you stop trying to keep score it's easier to call out one wrong thing at a time. 

Edited April 26 by Renegade7

[Renegade7]

1 hour ago, tshile said:

For comparison purposes if Mexico did to us what Hamas did we would have had our people back within a week and then spent the next few months debating what we’re going to do with this new land we just acquired (new states!), and also debating whether we take the rest of Mexico or just send it back to the Stone Age and let them have fun figuring out what to do with that. 
 

and the vast majority of the country would support that. 
 

Knowing/believing that, I have no interest in judging other people for behaving in exactly the same way (again, I believe) we would behave in that situation. 

And I feel pretty good about believing that’s how we’d behave, cause it’s basically what we spent the last 20 years doing in Iraq and Afghanistan. 
 

the key difference being those countries aren’t neighbors so instead of taking the land we tried to install a government we thought would be friendly to us. 

 

I read this whole thing out of respect, but it's still a bad analogy.

 

We aren't currently occupying Mexico.

 

We didn't establish settlements in Iraq or Afghanistan to kick those people out and move Americans in with illegal settlements under international law, either.

 

We should be looking at this from the perspective of trying to save as many lives as can be in a situation that is actually happening versus a hypothetical to justify it.

Edited April 26 by Renegade7

[Renegade7]

1 hour ago, PleaseBlitz said:

Although it would be great if we did since hispanics tend to vote Dem. 

 

Begs the question if they still would if we occupied the largest Spanish speaking country in the world.

[PeterMP]

1 hour ago, tshile said:

For comparison purposes if Mexico did to us what Hamas did we would have had our people back within a week and then spent the next few months debating what we’re going to do with this new land we just acquired (new states!), and also debating whether we take the rest of Mexico or just send it back to the Stone Age and let them have fun figuring out what to do with that. 
 

and the vast majority of the country would support that. 
 

Knowing/believing that, I have no interest in judging other people for behaving in exactly the same way (again, I believe) we would behave in that situation. 

And I feel pretty good about believing that’s how we’d behave, cause it’s basically what we spent the last 20 years doing in Iraq and Afghanistan. 
 

the key difference being those countries aren’t neighbors so instead of taking the land we tried to install a government we thought would be friendly to us. 

 

I think this is not true.  We didn't acquire land in Afghanistan, Germany, or Japan after WWII.

 

We worked to try to rebuild those countries and their governments and leave them better off (at least as we see it) then we found it.

 

Something Israel over the decades with Palestinians haven't done.  Israel hasn't and in this case hasn't shown any indication after we have when we were attacked or fought a war.

 

We spent billions of dollars on things like building roads and schools and a Afghani government/military in Afghanistan.  Israel has never done anything like that.

 

That you can't see the distinction/difference is shocking to me.

Edited April 26 by PeterMP

[tshile]

1 hour ago, PleaseBlitz said:

I think a better comparison would be if a Mexican drug cartel launched an attack that killed a whole bunch of Americans.  We would definitely **** them up, and there would probably be a lot of collateral damage, but I don't think we'd try to starve the whole country or target aid workers and we wouldn't absorb Mexico.  Although it would be great if we did since hispanics tend to vote Dem. 

Drug cartel that was elected to run the country as its official government **

Edited April 26 by tshile

[Barry.Randolphe]

47 minutes ago, ixcuincle said:

@Captain Wiggles I'm sorry but when these "protesters" are harassing Jewish people, crossing the line, and being violent then I cannot in good conscience support their protest. I hope you understand my objection to this.

 

Israel needs to watch out bombing certain places but Palestenians also have to be civil. You can disagree with Israel but do not attack other jews just because you disagree. This is not hard

 

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/university-protests-israel-hamas-war-gaza-arrests-campus/

 

The university police called city and state authorities after deciding that the initial group of protesters were not affiliated with Emory University based on their refusal to confirm their connections, Cheryl Elliott, the university's Vice President for Public Safety, said in a statement Thursday evening, adding that the individual who was tased also "is not a member of the Emory community."

"Due to the direct assault of officers, law enforcement released chemical irritants into the ground to assist with crowd control," Elliot said.

At 7:41 a.m. a few dozen protestors arrived on campus. When they arrived, these individuals ignored and pushed past EPD officers stationed on the Quad and set up tents in an area where equipment and materials were staged for Commencement. Based on their actions and refusal to confirm their connection to Emory, EPD made the assessment that these individuals were not Emory community members.

 

[quote]Students protesting the Israel-Hamas war are demanding schools cut financial ties to Israel and divest from companies enabling its monthslong conflict. Some Jewish students say the protests have veered into antisemitism and made them afraid to set foot on campus as graduation nears, partly prompting a heavier hand from universities.[/quote]

 

 

 

 

 

Damn, they really harassed her

[tshile]

17 minutes ago, PeterMP said:

 

I think this is not true.  We didn't acquire land in Afghanistan, Germany, or Japan after WWII.

Right because they were far way instead we installed the government we preferred so we could project power and pay global politics games. 

 

we have a well established history of taking land adjacent to us as we see fit. 🤷‍♂️ 

 

edit: also, maybe I’m wrong, but I do seem to recall us taking some pacific islands and keeping them at least for a while. 

Edited April 26 by tshile

[PeterMP]

13 minutes ago, tshile said:

Right because they were far way instead we installed the government we preferred so we could project power and pay global politics games. 

 

we have a well established history of taking land adjacent to us as we see fit. 🤷‍♂️ 

 

Yes, we installed a government we preferred.  We also installed a government that is responsive to its people.  Don't equate what we did in Europe and much of the world to what the Soviets did.  We play global politics, but it isn't like many countries for the most party want us there.  Even countries like Vietnam our essentially asking for our help.

 

We (and much of the world) used to have a well established history of taking land far away from us (in our case, Hawaii, Guam, etc).  The British in an era when the world was much less connected and distance was a much greater obstacle had a global empire.  The British didn't break up their empire because things got too far apart.

 

We stopped doing it because we realized it wrong and the benefits weren't worth the costs (to us or the native population).

 

We could have easily claimed many of the islands in or around Japan as territories (i.e. colonies) and eventually states after WWII.  We didn't.  We could have claimed chunks of Afghanistan as territories.  We didn't.  (I'll point that we even transitioned the Philippines from territory (which we took control of in the late 1800s to its own country post-WWII).  We could have easily left the Philippines a colony if we were interested in controlling territory.)  We didn't help the Philippines establish a government and become a country because it got too far away.

 

Distance doesn't have anything to do with it.  Right/wrong beneficial/not beneficial is what drove the change.

Edited April 26 by PeterMP

[PleaseBlitz]

17 minutes ago, tshile said:

Drug cartel that was elected to run the country as its official government **

I mean, I think the drug cartels have pretty significant sway over the Mexican government. 

[Renegade7]

5 minutes ago, tshile said:

Right because they were far way instead we installed the government we preferred so we could project power and pay global politics games. 

 

we have a well established history of taking land adjacent to us as we see fit. 🤷‍♂️ 

 

Man...somethings I agree with you on and somethings I dont...

 

I can't co-sign with you in this one, this is so off-base it's not even in the ballpark anymore.

 

Here we go ago settling back to debating how we got here...in the meantime there are now a growing number of campus with images going around the world of riot police breaking up protests of actions by their government.

 

There's no nice way to spin this, at this scope and growing, it's becoming a bad look.  Some may, for better or worse it as sadly family.

 

 

Pro-Palestinian Encampments Spread, Leading to Hundreds of Arrests https://www.nytimes.com/2024/04/24/us/pro-palestinian-encampments-protests.html?smid=nytcore-android-share

[Skins24]

10 minutes ago, PeterMP said:

 

I think this is not true.  We didn't acquire land in Afghanistan, Germany, or Japan after WWII.

 

We worked to try to rebuild those countries and their governments and leave them better off (at least as we see it) then we left it.

 

Something Israel over the decades with Palestinians haven't done.  Israel hasn't and in this case hasn't shown any indication after we have when we were attacked or fought a war.

 

We spent billions of dollars on things like building roads and schools and a Afghani in Afghanistan.  Israel has never done anything like that.

This is misleading. We DID occupy Germany and Japan after WWII. Recovery efforts (in Germany) didn't start until the late 40s after we disarmed them. Japan later.

 

The Israel-Palestine conflict hasn't had a chance to end yet, lol.

 

 

I figured there would be some who actually see these protests as legit. Maybe for a very slim minority they are, but for the most part...nah. These protests are what happens when a generation is being raised by algorithms. Though I will say, Ryan McBeth in this video does make a great point showing it's probably a bit deeper. (side note - dude has some excellent videos. If you want info on spotting disinfo, or showing how you're being manipulated by social media, his analysis are pretty accurate. And all open/public - of course - which is *fist pump*.)

Anyway, I've said it before - we have atrocities occurring, right now, that are scale and scope worse than anything Israel has ever done. If these protests were really about subjugated people, why the silence for all the others? Russia and Ukraine is an excellent example, and the absolutely foolish argument earlier in this thread that because we're already giving aid to Ukraine, we don't have to protest the atrocities Russia is committing is...mind-blowing.

[tshile]

34 minutes ago, PeterMP said:

That you can't see the distinction/difference is shocking to me

Idk if you added this or I missed i

but I do see a distinction

 

its shocking to me you don’t see the similarities 

7 minutes ago, Renegade7 said:

 

Man...somethings I agree with you on and somethings I dont...

This is wasted effort given your last series of posts. If you’re gonna make my opinions up for me then I have no desire to discuss anything with you

 

much less read anymore of your posts. 

[PeterMP]

10 minutes ago, Skins24 said:

This is misleading. We DID occupy Germany and Japan after WWII. Recovery efforts (in Germany) didn't start until the late 40s after we disarmed them. Japan later.

 

The Israel-Palestine conflict hasn't had a chance to end yet, lol.

 

 

I figured there would be some who actually see these protests as legit. Maybe for a very slim minority they are, but for the most part...nah. These protests are what happens when a generation is being raised by algorithms. Though I will say, Ryan McBeth in this video does make a great point showing it's probably a bit deeper. (side note - dude has some excellent videos. If you want info on spotting disinfo, or showing how you're being manipulated by social media, his analysis are pretty accurate. And all open/public - of course - which is *fist pump*.)

Anyway, I've said it before - we have atrocities occurring, right now, that are scale and scope worse than anything Israel has ever done. If these protests were really about subjugated people, why the silence for all the others? Russia and Ukraine is an excellent example, and the absolutely foolish argument earlier in this thread that because we're already giving aid to Ukraine, we don't have to protest the atrocities Russia is committing is...mind-blowing.

 

We occupied Germany with the objective of rebuilding it and building a German government for Germans.  Israel has and is taking land from Palestinians.

 

https://www.ohchr.org/en/press-releases/2024/03/un-human-rights-chief-deplores-new-moves-expand-israeli-settlements-occupied#:~:text=The size of existing Israeli,since monitoring began in 2017.

 

They've occupied Gaza before.  They did not rebuild it or try to create a government for Palestinians.  This is not comparable.

 

People protest things when they are unhappy and think organization that they are associated with can/should make changes.

 

The US government is already against Russia and has put significant sanctions in place that limit what things like universities can do in terms Russia.

 

If a university was found to be skirting US sanctions, you would see protest.

 

There is a bit of this being a much longer conflict and has historically gotten more attention component to it too.

 

Edited April 26 by PeterMP

[tshile]

12 minutes ago, PeterMP said:

Distance doesn't have anything to do with it.  Right/wrong beneficial/not beneficial is what drove the change.

I guess where we disagree is that you seem to think this is a case of change that’s permanent and caused exactly by what you outline

 

i don’t think it’s permanent and I think you’re leaving out a lot of details that are important and conflict with the specific way you word it 

 

I don’t think as a nation we learned some valuable lesson that carries us through the rest of time about what we do. I think it’s totally reasonable we’d take more land from Mexico if, in the moment, we felt we had a reason to get away with it and it would be a good idea for us 

 

projecting power and spheres of influence and price of oil or other resources are just the easy to list things you’re leaving out of the overall situations 

1 minute ago, PeterMP said:

We occupied Germany with the objective of rebuilding it and building a German government for Germans

And to build the sphere of influence to compete with the soviets/communism

 

which we continued outside of Germany via NATO. A tactic we are still using the further confront the Russians to this very day. 

[Renegade7]

8 minutes ago, tshile said:

This is wasted effort given your last series of posts. If you’re gonna make my opinions up for me then I have no desire to discuss anything with you

 

much less read anymore of your posts. 

 

I'm genuinely trying to get where you're coming from...

 

But I strongly disagree with going right back to how we got here again or the anologies and hypotheticals you are throwing out in this conversation.

 

I'm not making up anything, I'm responding to what you're typing as you're typing.

 

If you mean something else and I'm not getting it, say that and clarify.  What else do I have to go on then what you say and what you show?

Edited April 26 by Renegade7

[PeterMP]

6 minutes ago, tshile said:

I guess where we disagree is that you seem to think this is a case of change that’s permanent and caused exactly by what you outline

 

i don’t think it’s permanent and I think you’re leaving out a lot of details that are important and conflict with the specific way you word it 

 

I don’t think as a nation we learned some valuable lesson that carries us through the rest of time about what we do. I think it’s totally reasonable we’d take more land from Mexico if, in the moment, we felt we had a reason to get away with it and it would be a good idea for us 

 

projecting power and spheres of influence and price of oil or other resources are just the easy to list things you’re leaving out of the overall situations 

 

Then explain it.

 

How did allowing/helping the Philippines move from a territory to a country or not claiming more of the smaller Japanese islands that we had taken over in WWII as territories help us in terms of "projecting power and spheres of influence and price of oil or other resources" and that distance was the key motivating factor?

 

Take some specific cases and actually explain why I am wrong.

Edited April 26 by PeterMP