Hamas Attacks Against Israel

[PleaseBlitz]

34 minutes ago, TradeTheBeal! said:

Since we’ve inevitably reached the  “ZOMG GENOCIDE/STARVATION OF MILLIONS” portion of the dialogue, I’d like to point out that the population of the Gaza Strip has approximately doubled since 2005, from roughly 1 million to a robust 2+ million.  
 

Now I’m just a simple horse-trader, but this strikes me as much different than the other (mostly leftist) genocides I learned about back in school.

I edited my post. Hopefully you are placated.

[TradeTheBeal!]

3 minutes ago, PleaseBlitz said:

I edited my post. Hopefully you are placated.

A powerful and moving gesture of reconciliation from a survivor of the recent Potomac Yard Genocide.

[PleaseBlitz]

1 minute ago, TradeTheBeal! said:

A powerful and moving gesture of reconciliation from a survivor of the recent Potomac Yard Genocide.

#NeverForget. 

[Fergasun]

CNN:  Six months into the war in Gaza, Israel has no exit strategy and no real plan for the future

Quote

Several experts told CNN that Israel was facing an impossible situation because the goal it has set for itself – eliminating Hamas – is both unachievable and very popular domestically.Hamas has dominated Gaza ever since it seized power in 2007, controlling all government and security bodies, as well as the healthcare, education and social systems.  “Israel cannot achieve its stated goal of eliminating Hamas, because Hamas is an integral part of the Palestinian society in the West Bank and Gaza. Its popularity has increased in the last several months,” said Nathan Thrall, a Jerusalem-based expert on the Arab-Israeli conflict and author of “A Day in the Life of Abed Salama: Anatomy of a Jerusalem Tragedy.”

It's not like Team America has been a good example of this in the past few decades either. 

 

More....

Quote

Netanyahu unveiled his plan for Gaza’s post-Hamas future in late February, calling for “complete demilitarization” of the enclave and closing off the territory’s southern border with Egypt, as well as the overhaul of Gaza’s civil administration and education systems. He also rejected any pressure from the international community to recognize a Palestinian state.  Many of the proposals were directly opposed by key players at the negotiating table, including the US, Egypt and the United Arab Emirates.

I am familiar with the recent hostage negotiations.  Hamas wants complete withdrawal for the hostages.  Israel wants a temporary ceasefire (I sure there are other issues).  It's like watching our politicians try to negotiate.  

[Skins24]

10 hours ago, The Sisko said:

Not as many, but you know which country also received a boatload of UN resolutions against it? South Africa. Your logic excuses their apartheid government as well. I guess it makes sense though since Israel was happy to arm the apartheid era S. Africans. But then I guess one apartheid state would naturally support another. 

No, not at all excusing anything.

This was in response to the thought that Israel just does whatever and is ignored. 

[ixcuincle]

 

[Fergasun]

@ixcuincle

There's just one issue with the Isrsel is Russia, Palestine is Ukraine.  Palestine is governed by a State Dept. Designated terrorist organization.  But, it is correct to say, you can't bomb your way out of this problem.  I thought Israel just withdrew from southern Gaza?  Both sides are trying to "bomb their way" out of the issue.  

 

Stewart also ignores the issue of the hostages.  Which is inherently, the definition of terrorism.  There's also the issue of both countries democratic populations seem to support a more right-wing militant, confrontational government. I see how it is on both sides.  The Palestines held largely peaceful marches and the world barely blinked.  

 

Let's play a mind game of "what happens if US steps away from Israel/Middle east".  We pretty much are hedged in with Saudi Arabia-Qatar-Egypt-Israel against Iranian interests.  Iran was actually the big winner of our Iraq fiaaco.   But, I don't think it's truly in Iran's interests for this to explode either.  I feel like Israel is leaning into, "let's see how far we can push our boundaries..." knowing that we are stuck to them.  And Iran is doing the same, knowing we are working to avoid a larger conflict.  

 

Rebuilding Palestine should be the wet dream of "compassionate conservatives".... or does that only exist with countries that have large oil reserves?  Sorry, that was 20 years ago.  So, I am trying to think of a plan that doesn't involve Hamas and a 2-state solution.  I can't there without Hamas ie. "the de facto democratic government of Palestine."  Getting rid of Hamas requires Israel to pull what US did in Iraq.  Palestinians don't have either political or military might to do that (and why wouldn they attack their defense force?).  I don't know if Israel can pull a US in Iraq and risk what an insurgency would look like (all around them) and convince their neighbors they are "good guys". Especially with their track record.  

 

Actually trying to solve this problem isn't easy regardless of how hypocritical we (US) may appear.  

 

[Fergasun]

Israel conducted air strikes that killed some of the children and grandchildren of a Hamas leader.

[TheGreatBuzz]

Fruit of the poisonous tree?

 

 

 

Too soon?

[Renegade7]

1 hour ago, Fergasun said:

Israel conducted air strikes that killed some of the children and grandchildren of a Hamas leader.

 

Was about to ask if anyone can validate this...have to ask if the only to bring those sons to justice (all playing part in hamas) was to kill their kids too...

 

https://www.i24news.tv/en/news/israel-at-war/artc-sons-and-grandchildren-of-hamas-leader-haniyeh-killed-in-gaza-airstrike-report

38 minutes ago, TheGreatBuzz said:

Fruit of the poisonous tree?

 

 

 

Too soon?

 

The idea this was so "time-sensitive" they couldn't run it passed upper-management begs many questions that assumption alone can't answer...at least for me.

 

How old were the grandchildren?  Were they hamas, too? Did IDF care or jus making a point killing this man's sons and the grandchildren were jus collateral damage?

 

This feels like "f it, kill the kids, too, before someone tells us to call it off"...and probably speaks to what they didn't want to talk about in their investigation regarding the recent WCF strike.

[Jabbyrwock]

11 minutes ago, Renegade7 said:

have to ask if the only to bring those sons to justice (all playing part in hamas) was to kill their kids too...

 

"Justice", in so far as the concept truly exists on this tiny blue rock, has very little to do with what either of the prominent groups is doing in Gaza right now.

[Renegade7]

2 minutes ago, Jabbyrwock said:

 

"Justice", in so far as the concept truly exists on this tiny blue rock, has very little to do with what either of the prominent groups is doing in Gaza right now.

 

Clearly.

[tshile]

19 minutes ago, Renegade7 said:

The idea this was so "time-sensitive" they couldn't run it passed upper-management begs many questions that assumption alone can't answer...at least for me.

 

How old were the grandchildren?  Were they hamas, too? Did IDF care or jus making a point killing this man's sons and the grandchildren were jus collateral damage?

 

This feels like "f it, kill the kids, too, before someone tells us to call it off"...and probably speaks to what they didn't want to talk about in their investigation regarding the recent WCF strike.

The sons are in Hamas and are terrorists. 
 

We drone strike weddings when it suits our needs. 
 

🤷‍♂️ 

[Renegade7]

16 minutes ago, tshile said:

The sons are in Hamas and are terrorists. 
 

We drone strike weddings when it suits our needs. 
 

🤷‍♂️

 

We finally cracked down on that, though...doesn't seem Israel has any indication of slowing down...

 

https://www.cnn.com/2022/10/07/politics/drone-strikes-counterterrorism-white-house-biden-new-rules/index.html

 

Quote

The new policy requires the president's approval before a lethal drone strike or commando raid can be launched on a particular counterterrorism target, according to a senior administration official -- and that individual must be named, although the policy does allow the president to waive that and other requirements at his discretion. The president must also approve which groups in which countries are considered to have potential targets as members.

The New York Times first reported on the new rules.

 

 

Quote

It also institutionalizes a series of standards for taking action against a target, including that counterterrorism operators must establish with "near certainty" that there will be no civilian casualties in the strike, and that the target poses a continuing, imminent threat to the United States

 

[tshile]

2 minutes ago, Renegade7 said:

We finally cracked down on that, though...doesn't seem Israel has any indication of slowing down...

Until we have a reason to avoid our new policy. 
 

War doesn’t have rules. They’re not rules if people don’t play by them unless it’s convenient to do so. 
 

and they’re not rules when there’s essentially zero enforcement for breaking them. 
 

🤷‍♂️ 

[Fergasun]

https://www.theverge.com/2024/4/4/24120352/israel-lavender-artificial-intelligence-gaza-ai

 

Welp, we didn't all talk about the AI tool that Israel was using to target Hamas.... 

 

Scary stuff, especially since I am doubtful AI is all that "intelligent". And they intentionally didn't care about collateral damage.

[Renegade7]

41 minutes ago, tshile said:

Until we have a reason to avoid our new policy. 
 

War doesn’t have rules. They’re not rules if people don’t play by them unless it’s convenient to do so. 
 

and they’re not rules when there’s essentially zero enforcement for breaking them. 
 

🤷‍♂️

 

I hear you, I jus can't co-sign...

 

Yes, war crimes are happening and sometimes its us...I do believe we should be pushing to limit them much as possible, zero being the goal.

 

The realist in me compares it to fighting cancer...getting down to zero maybe the impossible, but it's so damn ugly for me anything less then that goal doesn't make sense, even if we never get there.

 

Any "acceptable" threshold starts with acceptance.

7 minutes ago, Fergasun said:

https://www.theverge.com/2024/4/4/24120352/israel-lavender-artificial-intelligence-gaza-ai

 

Welp, we didn't all talk about the AI tool that Israel was using to target Hamas.... 

 

Scary stuff, especially since I am doubtful AI is all that "intelligent". And they intentionally didn't care about collateral damage.

 

Don't expect the AI to care about human life if the humans dont.

Edited April 10 by Renegade7

[tshile]

We shot down a commercial airliner (80’s I think?) with automated defense systems. 
 

That stuff’s not to be taken lightly. Easy to make mistakes. 

(These are things you discuss when working through autonomous system design in college)

[Fergasun]

@tshile

Yeah, TWA 800... I think....

[tshile]

3 minutes ago, Fergasun said:

@tshile

Yeah, TWA 800... I think....

I believe drag one was an accident. 
 

I believe the one I’m thinking of is Iran air. It wasn’t a truly autonomous system, but I believe it was a new system that was supposed do all the IFF work and, according to the lesson for our class, alarms were not properly salient causing our guys to believe it was a military plane when it wasn’t. 
 

but the point is that system design has lots of pitfalls. Especially when you transition from on paper and theory to guy in a room actually pushing buttons and dealing with the alarms. 

[Renegade7]

This may be off topic but I'm fine with AI finding and selecting targets, as long as human giving final call to pull the trigger or fire the missile.

 

We barely get this right doing it ourselves, I find it it inappropriate to allow AI to make judgement calls involving taking human life.

[Fergasun]

Just now, tshile said:

I believe drag one was an accident. 
 

I believe the one I’m thinking of is Iran air. It wasn’t a truly autonomous system, but I believe it was a new system that was supposed do all the IFF work and, according to the lesson for our class, alarms were not properly salient causing our guys to believe it was a military plane when it wasn’t. 
 

but the point is that system design has lots of pitfalls. Especially when you transition from on paper and theory to guy in a room actually pushing buttons and dealing with the alarms. 

Sorry, I wanted to come off like a tin foil hatter or a couple of minutes.  Yes. It was an accidental shootdown of an Iranian Airbus. 

 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran_Air_Flight_655

[The Sisko]

1 hour ago, tshile said:

Until we have a reason to avoid our new policy. 
 

War doesn’t have rules. They’re not rules if people don’t play by them unless it’s convenient to do so. 
 

and they’re not rules when there’s essentially zero enforcement for breaking them. 
 

🤷‍♂️

So you're saying the Hamas attack was OK then. The no rules policy isn't limited solely to the people you like. In this case, the IDF was able to use collective punishment as "enforcement". However, there are plenty of other cases where most people in this country, you included would (I hope) try to say that it's wrong, Burma/Myanmar being one good example off the top of my head. If you excuse Israel's atrocities in prosecuting this war, you're signing onto the same team as the Burmese govt., among others.

[Fergasun]

 ,@tshile

 

I get it.  "War crime" is an oxymoron.  Then let's just abandon the Geneva Conventions.  Because modern war efficacy is so much greater than the past.  Both sides do it anyway.  

 

This war started with war crimes anyway.

 

[tshile]

1 hour ago, The Sisko said:

So you're saying the Hamas attack was OK then. The no rules policy isn't limited solely to the people you like. In this case, the IDF was able to use collective punishment as "enforcement". However, there are plenty of other cases where most people in this country, you included would (I hope) try to say that it's wrong, Burma/Myanmar being one good example off the top of my head. If you excuse Israel's atrocities in prosecuting this war, you're signing onto the same team as the Burmese govt., among others.

I don’t believe I ever said any of it was “OK”

 

and I don’t give two ****s about either side

 

i just don’t walk around pretending there’s these precious rules to war and then get outraged when someone I don’t like violates them. 
 

people in this country have this romantic notion of war. 
 

from people that don’t understand how low our deaths in Afghanistan and Iraq were. To the ones causally threatening civil war. To the ones that get outraged sitting on their couch about what one side or another does

 

it’s really ignorant. 
 

people want war crimes charges. As if that’s a think that actually happens all that often. Our own country doesn’t even sign into the notion of an international court for trying war crimes 😂 

 

but continue on with your selective outrage. 

33 minutes ago, Fergasun said:

 ,@tshile

 

I get it.  "War crime" is an oxymoron.  Then let's just abandon the Geneva Conventions.  Because modern war efficacy is so much greater than the past.  Both sides do it anyway.  

 

This war started with war crimes anyway.

 

whatever. People have selective outrage and forget things that are inconvenient to their desires. 
 

japan committed horrific war crimes during ww2. 
 

But it was only Germans that were hung. 
 

history is full of selective outrage and the USA has its own share of ****ed up actions no one was ever held accountable for, who knows about the stuff they successfully swept under the rug and we don’t even know about it. 

And it will continue to be that way. 
 

when the circumstances dictate it, the rules stop mattering. 
 

(edit: you see a smaller scale of this in society. People have morals when it’s convenient. Given the right context, they’ll justify suspending their morals. Those aren’t morals. They’re hobbies.)

Edited April 11 by tshile