Redskins alternate universe: How would the trajectory of the franchise have changed if.....

[ntotoro]

Casserly was easily the most overrated GM this team ever had. Thought of telling him that when I saw him at a Nats game a few years back, then I realized I was just hangry.

[Voice_of_Reason]

13 minutes ago, TD_washingtonredskins said:

 

Right...there would have been a lot more of the status quo, for sure. And I know that many fans, myself included, would have been clamoring for changes. But even having Casserly for a longer period of time and then letting him hire Norv's replacement (I seem to recall they didn't get along, so someone would have needed to go), is light years better than Snyder making those decisions. 

No disagreement.  I think it's important to remember, folks were having Norv fatigue going into the 1999 season, and there was some push for Snyder to make the change right after he bought the team.  But he really couldn't, it was too late.

 

I agree having Casserly hire the next coach would be better than Snyder.  But honestly he didn't do so great when he got the opportunity with the Texans.  Hired Dom Capers, and that went very "meh" and was very similar to Norv.  Casserly hired Norv, and then essentially hired the same type of guy again.  

 

No disagreement it wouldn't have been better than Snyder.  But the key would have been when John Cooke would move on from Casserly and who he would hire to replace him. 

 

It's massively unlikely we have anything like the swirl of negativity we had under Dan.  But I'm not sure the record would be THAT much better.  John was very low-key "stay the course."  Not sure how that would play over the last 23 years.  Almost assuredly better.  But how much better?  Dunno.  

 

I wasn't a fan of Norv nor a fan of Casserly.  And John Cooke said publicly he wanted to keep them around even through all of the losing, and I can't get that out of my head. 

 

 

[TD_washingtonredskins]

2 minutes ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

No disagreement.  I think it's important to remember, folks were having Norv fatigue going into the 1999 season, and there was some push for Snyder to make the change right after he bought the team.  But he really couldn't, it was too late.

 

I agree having Casserly hire the next coach would be better than Snyder.  But honestly he didn't do so great when he got the opportunity with the Texans.  Hired Dom Capers, and that went very "meh" and was very similar to Norv.  Casserly hired Norv, and then essentially hired the same type of guy again.  

 

No disagreement it wouldn't have been better than Snyder.  But the key would have been when John Cooke would move on from Casserly and who he would hire to replace him. 

 

It's massively unlikely we have anything like the swirl of negativity we had under Dan.  But I'm not sure the record would be THAT much better.  John was very low-key "stay the course."  Not sure how that would play over the last 23 years.  Almost assuredly better.  But how much better?  Dunno.  

 

I wasn't a fan of Norv nor a fan of Casserly.  And John Cooke said publicly he wanted to keep them around even through all of the losing, and I can't get that out of my head. 

 

 

 

Yep, I think we're on the same page. When Snyder first took over, I was excited for a younger/no-nonsense type to inject some fire into the organization. It struck me as a little sleepy and outdated with John Kent Cooke running things (and even the final couple of years of his father). Clearly, I was wrong...but I'm not under the impression that we'd have re-started winning Super Bowls every 2-4 years like we did under Gibbs. 

 

And, what's even worse, in this alternate reality I'd probably be wishing for a young, brash owner to come in and be aggressive. 

[TD_washingtonredskins]

On 8/24/2023 at 8:38 PM, Voice_of_Reason said:

They liked Wilson more than Kirk.  If no trade, they probably pick Wilson in the second.

 

Which … wouldn’t have sucked.  Wilson in the Shanahan offense?  That could have been special.

 

 

 

That would have been fantastic. If that had happened and then somehow Snyder was forced or chose to sell the team in the 2014/15 timeframe, all might have been right in the world. The team name, despite some protesting, would probably still be Redskins and the team itself would almost certainly have been more successful. 

[kfrankie]

1 hour ago, kingdaddy said:

Not to nitpick but Joey T. had his leg snapped by the great Lawrence Taylor, NY Giants, on Monday Night Football. Jay Schroeder came in to lead the team to a tremendous victory. 

What if Joe Gibbs followed thru on trading Doug Williams to the Raiders during that magical SB season? 

What if John Riggins never unretired after Gibbs went to see him at his home in Kansas? 

What if RFK Stadium had been renovated and the team never moved to Fed Ex Field? 

I hate this thread, now I'm depressed again.

 yeah i knew that, my mistake. LT was jumping up and down signaling for help. I recall that he thew like 5 INts against the bears.

[RVAskins]

3 minutes ago, TD_washingtonredskins said:

 

That would have been fantastic. If that had happened and then somehow Snyder was forced or chose to sell the team in the 2014/15 timeframe, all might have been right in the world. The team name, despite some protesting, would probably still be Redskins and the team itself would almost certainly have been more successful. 

I think if events hadn't happened the way they did, sadly, Snyder would still own the team. It took the team hitting rock bottom financially, record wise and internally for Snyder to sell the team. Any amount if success may have prevented the sale from happening. I also think it was inevitable for the name to change.

[TD_washingtonredskins]

Going back to Gibbs 1.0...what if this team had some better fortune/good breaks in some of the non-Super Bowl seasons? 

 

1984 - Coming off of back-to-back NFC titles, the Skins hosted an up-and-coming Bears team in the Divisional round. Granted, that loss isn't awful (essentially lost by a TD to the team that would dominate the league the following year), but just imagine if we had gotten it done? We battled back from a two-score deficit to pull within 6 going into the 4th quarter at home. Had we pulled off the comeback, we'd have traveled to San Francisco for the NFC Championship Game. Walsh vs. Gibbs/defending conference champs vs. the team that would become the elite team of the 1980s. 

 

1986 - I know that they had our number in 1986 (and for much of the 1980s), but just imagine if the late-afternoon/evening in New Jersey wasn't so blustery and our passing game had a shot? We were clearly the second-best team in the entire league in 1986 and played the Giants relatively close in each of the two regular season meetings (especially the game in NY). Had we won that game and played Denver in the Super Bowl, we'd be the team that most people talked about as the team of the 1980s (4 titles and 5 appearances from 1982-1991). 

 

1990 - This one may be the biggest reach, but it also was a pretty competitive game. If you take away Ryp's 3 interceptions (one returned for a TD), this is a much closer game. Just imagine if he was ready to ascend a few months earlier than he did! It would have been another Giants NFC Championship Game - and they still had our number!! But you never know...they were beat up and maybe we'd have had the firepower and OL to finally vanquish them. Then, a battle with the Bills in the Super Bowl. 

[kfrankie]

1 hour ago, kingdaddy said:

Not to nitpick but Joey T. had his leg snapped by the great Lawrence Taylor, NY Giants, on Monday Night Football. Jay Schroeder came in to lead the team to a tremendous victory. 

What if Joe Gibbs followed thru on trading Doug Williams to the Raiders during that magical SB season? 

What if John Riggins never unretired after Gibbs went to see him at his home in Kansas? 

What if RFK Stadium had been renovated and the team never moved to Fed Ex Field? 

I hate this thread, now I'm depressed again.

 

If Gibbs had traded Williams after 1986, the team rides Jay Schroder for 10+ years with multiple playoff appearances and 3 Super Bowls.  I know Schroeder was more or less a failure with the Raiders, but the Redskins were a much better, more stable franchise. With the Redskins line protecting him, I envision a lot of success.  I watched a little of the Bears/Redskins 1986 divisional game a couple weeks ago (which spurred my interest in making this thread), and Schroeder was pretty damn good.  Threw one pass 30 yards off his back foot early in the game with defender in his face for a touchdown. He neutralized the Bears 46 defense/blitz, which only Marino had been able to do that year. Even the announcers were talking about how that was Schroeder's intention.

 

If Riggins never unretires, that opens up a range of possibilities. Joe Washington was there, but he wouldn't have been able to carry the load.  Maybe they pick up James Brooks in the 1981 draft and use him and Joe W. together somehow. Brooks went #24 to the chargers, and the Redskins pick Mark May at #20. Maybe they swing and miss on another back in the 1981 1st round.  Under just about any scenario I don't think they win Super Bowl 17 without Riggins. 

 

If RFK stadium had been renovated, John Kent Cooke would have had the assets to purchase the team from his father's estate because there's no need to purchase Fedex field along with the franchise. SNYDER NEVER HAPPENS.  

 

 

[TD_washingtonredskins]

10 minutes ago, RVAskins said:

I think if events hadn't happened the way they did, sadly, Snyder would still own the team. It took the team hitting rock bottom financially, record wise and internally for Snyder to sell the team. Any amount if success may have prevented the sale from happening. I also think it was inevitable for the name to change.

 

I'm sure you're right on the first point. I'm just creating an alternate history for my edification. As for the name, I agree that pressure would have been applied. But for the name to actually change, that took a perfect storm of our owner pissing off a minority owner (who happened to run our largest sponsor) and our owner/the team having virtually no remaining friends/good will built up to help. I think if Harris, for example, owned the team in the mid-2010s then we'd still be Redskins (though I agree that people would still be trying to get us to change it). 

 

Keep in mind, as far back as the 1980s (and maybe earlier than that, but that's my earliest memory), there were calls to change the name. It wasn't until sponsors pulled out that it was seriously considered...and I'll never believe that the sponsorship decisions were ONLY about the name. It was far more about the feud Snyder was having with his minority owners. If that isn't going on (or those minority owners are already on a boat somewhere due to the sale), then I don't think the George Floyd summer of 2020 would have been enough to change a 85-year old brand. 

[Warhead36]

IIRC there was also talks of us trading for John Elway sometime in the late 80s or early 90s(before 91 anyway).

[Berggy9598]

If we beat the Raiders in the Superbowl, would there be more players from that era in the HOF?

[kfrankie]

1 hour ago, Berggy9598 said:

If we beat the Raiders in the Superbowl, would there be more players from that era in the HOF?

 

Yes.  Joe Theismann and Jacoby.  

2 hours ago, kfrankie said:

 yeah i knew that, my mistake. LT was jumping up and down signaling for help.

 

[Darth Tater]

4 hours ago, ntotoro said:

Casserly was easily the most overrated GM this team ever had. Thought of telling him that when I saw him at a Nats game a few years back, then I realized I was just hangry.

I disagree. A large part of the credit for how good we were at beating the bushes during the Beathard years goes to him. Further, Beathard and Gibbs are a large reason our draft cupboard was bare in Casserly's first few years and even then he made a few good moves. His greatest weakness as a GM was that he always gave into the HC even if he believed the HC was wrong (Desmond, Andre).  Remember, Desmond is fully on Gibbs and Andre is fully on Turner. Our picks could have been Troy Vincent or Bob Whitfield (not great but did play till 2006 and 1 pro-bowl), Pickens (to start prepping for life after Art) and Smith.  No Desmond, maybe McCardell is kept. He was key to building what should have been the team of the second half of the 90s if not for Norvousness (the 1996 team was probably the best team of the Norv tenure). His only big miss was on QB (and that was in part due to having the pick for a QB but no big time QB available). He was key to getting the 1999 trade done that go us Champ and picks that should have set us up for the early 2000s. Having us over a barrel because the NFL drug its feet (so bye-bye Green), he was a key player in getting us a QB for that year (even though I'll admit it was expensive). Not a great GM but mostly is very underrated, at least on this board.

[Darth Tater]

What if Gibbs had gone with the Jets trade package for Champ.  That included a pick that could have been Jackson, would have already had the pick for Cooley and maybe some depth pieces for the oline. Natural pick for Cooley would have let us keep the pick that should have been used on Campbell (though we could have gone Schaub in 2004 with what was in that trade). Along with that, what if he just waits for the Jags to cut Brunell or just lets Patrick Ramsey play himself out of the league or not.

[SkinsFTW]

What if the fans booed the hell out of Tanya Snyder back in the 00's instead of waiting until 2022 to do it? 

[zCommander]

2 hours ago, SkinsFTW said:

What if the fans booed the hell out of Tanya Snyder back in the 00's instead of waiting until 2022 to do it? 

 

Did the fans even knew who Tanya Snyder was back in 2000?

[SkinsFTW]

18 hours ago, zCommander said:

 

Did the fans even knew who Tanya Snyder was back in 2000?

Yeah, I think she's the one who started the pink ribbon campaign the NFL does every year for breast cancer so I guess it'd have been hard to boo her over that but if they did then maybe the team gets sold before Zorn and all the Bruce crap that followed. 

[gbear]

What if JKC had just left his team to his son?  There wouldn't have been a huge vacuum causing us to be unable to offer Trent Green a contract.  The result is we would have had a consistent QB for the next 8 years.  Can you imagine 9 years with a pro-bowl level QB?  He is on the KC circle of fame around their stadium.  How much better would we have been with him than the QB's we had in that time.  I mean imagine a history with no Tony Banks, Patrick Ramsey, Shane Matthews (7) ,  Danny Wuerffel, Jeff George.  I mean Brad Johnson is a closer trade, but in every other year of his career, Trent Green was better than what we had.

  

Oh, and there would be no Snyder history....

[Riggo-toni]

The biggest what if facing the team now has to be what if we had drafted Justin Herbert instead of Chase Young. We would have made the playoffs every year in Ron's tenure.

Imagine too if we drafted Brock Purdy in the 7th round last year... would be interesting to see how the competition between him and Howell would shake out.

[formerly4skins]

This just made me mad...could have turned that #2 pick into a player like Mahomes or McCaffrey.

 

And, Doofus Dan won't even take the call. 

 

[88Comrade2000]

What if we were winners during the Norv era? While the team would’ve still be sold after Cooke died; maybe the team would’ve been out of reach for Dan?

[PeterMP]

On 8/31/2023 at 9:55 AM, Voice_of_Reason said:

I agree having Casserly hire the next coach would be better than Snyder.  But honestly he didn't do so great when he got the opportunity with the Texans.  Hired Dom Capers, and that went very "meh" and was very similar to Norv.  Casserly hired Norv, and then essentially hired the same type of guy again.  

 

It is difficult to know how much control Casserly had in here in Washington as a GM.  I believe it is widely acknowledged at the time that JKC loved Turner and believed he'd found the next Gibbs (offensive genius that could go from being an OC to a HC).

 

I think it is also widely acknowledged that JKC (and then Snyder) had taken power from the GM even in terms of picking the players.  That's even generally considered a factor in Beathard leaving.  Initially, Beathard had essentially complete control of the roster, over time he lost some of his power to Gibbs, and JKC treated Gibbs' opinion as an equal and maybe even more important voice and was siding with Gibbs more and more.  That Casserly had at best a partial voice in picking players here in DC wouldn't be surprising.

 

What Casserly was great at, and so is underrated as a GM, was moving up and down the draft board, acquiring picks, and still getting people that he wanted.  Go back and look at the draft with the Ricky Williams trade and we drafted Champ.  The Colts had the pick before us and drafted Edge.  They could have almost certainly made the trade with the Saints and then gotten back up to get Edge at 7, like we did with Champ.  And even if they lost out at Edge at 7, Champ would have been a great pick for them at 7.   Even the Bengals at 3, I think there's a good chance that they could have traded that pick and still gotten Smith at 7.  I guess there's a chance if we're sitting there at 5 we might decide the QB is too valuable to pass up on.

 

That trade really sets up the ability to draft Samuels the next year, and we get two HOF players.

 

Pollian is considered a great GM, mostly because he was in a position to take Manning.  Casserly is consider eh but at least in Washington was never in a position to take a comparable QB.

Edited September 9, 2023 by PeterMP