2023 Offseason Mini Camp, OTA’s, Training Camp Discussion Thread: Hallelujah, Josh Harris & Co. Era Edition

[dyst]

Gibson looked nothing like this college highlights, not even his rookie year

[NoCalMike]

TBH, I am a decently less concerned about the starting O-line than I was a month ago, the issue though is depth.  If any of the starting five go down, I am not sure how they can deal with that, especially with a rookie QB running a new offense that is likely going to be facing a heavy rotation of blitzing early on.  

[method man]

6 hours ago, NoCalMike said:

TBH, I am a decently less concerned about the starting O-line than I was a month ago, the issue though is depth.  If any of the starting five go down, I am not sure how they can deal with that, especially with a rookie QB running a new offense that is likely going to be facing a heavy rotation of blitzing early on.  

I like depth on the interior and I like Lucas as the backup at tackle. The issue becomes if multiple tackles go down. That is a scary proposition.

Edited August 28, 2023 by method man

[DWinzit]

11 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

C.  Both expressed concern about the O line.  Bram later on in the podcastmentioned it as potentially a big concern but hopes its OK.  But then he said all teams have a weakness.  That's an over time change in take from Bram because as I said here at the start of camp Bram was the most optimistic about the O line.

The OL and especially the young guys are the ones that most miss out on getting reps and growing by having the reduced preseason. It takes a lot of time for them to learn to grow into the spped of the game while learning new schemes and how to work as a unit, need that gel time. They did show improvement from game 1-3, especially Cosmi and Strom in my eyes. 

 

11 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

D. Keim felt the best about Gates and Cosmi among the O lineman

For all the negativity that has surrounded the move to bring in Gates, he has proven a strong leader vet as they hoped.

 

11 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

E.  Hodges doesn't make the team but Armah likely does

Hodges worked himself out of a spot and Armah snuck right in behind him. I will be thrilled if this occurs. I like what Armah can bring and Hodges needs to trade in his Carlos Rogers hands or get a pair of Fred Biletnikoff stickem riddled gloves. 

11 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

F.  Tinlsey doesn't make it.  Ditto Kaz Allen.  Get ready again to see Milne be their prime returner.

It will be a travesty if Tinsley doesn't make it, he earned a spot. Yeah I know, he isn't a return guy but was a top 5 WR.

11 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

G.  Bram expressed concern about the LBs, and they discussed Barton still growing and learning the defense

They identified Barton as the LB they wanted to start with Davis, so far he has disappointed for certain. He does show flashes though...maybe he could have benefited from the extra preseason game as well. 

11 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

I.  They really like Chris Rodriguez.

They did a great job with their homework on this guy, he is the real deal

[method man]

Letting Larsen go would be moronic. He has shown he is a solid backup center in this league with the ability to play guard for years. For a couple years in a row, this team has had to turn to its 3rd string center (4th string in 2021). There is no one behind Stromberg if they let Larsen go and Stromberg gets hurt. 
 

I really hope they can find a way to IR Daniels with something. I don’t care if it were to happen now (which would end his season) vs later (which may allow him to come back). The guy is useless to the team this year and needs to focus on building mass and improving his individual technique. 

[Going Commando]

44 minutes ago, method man said:

I like depth on the interior and I like Lucas as the backup at tackle. The issue becomes if multiple tackles go down. That is a scary proposition.

 

That'll screw pretty much any OL.  But if it happens, they'll move Sam or Saahdiq outside and play Paul or Stromberg.

[Skinsinparadise]

48 minutes ago, DWinzit said:

 

For all the negativity that has surrounded the move to bring in Gates, he has proven a strong leader vet as they hoped.

 

 

don't recall much negativity about him.  for me it was just higher pedigreed centers were cheaper or around the same price.  I don't get the vibe from the beat guys that they have been blown away by Gates play.  But he brings a nastiniess to that unit.

 

48 minutes ago, DWinzit said:

 

It will be a travesty if Tinsley doesn't make it, he earned a spot. Yeah I know, he isn't a return guy but was a top 5 WR.

 

 

WP and Keim do not think he makes it.  Standig thinks he does, will see,  They don't really swing hard in UDFA compared to other teams -- so it would be nice to see them to find a UDFA that's a keeper.

 

48 minutes ago, DWinzit said:

 

They did a great job with their homework on this guy, he is the real deal

 

That was Scot McClioughan's favorite pick from this draft.  I liked it too a lot once I watched him.  Granted he's played against the 2's and 3's but played well against them.

 

He had a crappy run blocking unit at Kentucky which should brace him well for a potentially crappy run blocking unit here, too.

Edited August 28, 2023 by Skinsinparadise

[Skinsinparadise]

Keim

 

WIDE RECEIVER (6): Terry McLaurin, Jahan Dotson, Curtis Samuel, Dyami Brown, Byron Pringle, Dax Milne

There's a good chance seven make the initial roster, with perhaps both Milne and Kazmeir Allen making it. Milne could make it ahead of Allen if they only keep six, but Allen's return ability helps. The first four were easy picks. McLaurin's chemistry with Howell has developed nicely as the summer unfolded. Dotson could have an excellent season; no one on the roster shakes defenders better than he does. Pringle, who played for coordinator Eric Bieniemy, adds experienced depth.

---

TIGHT END (3): Logan Thomas, John Bates, Cole Turner

Washington needs to be careful with Thomas, who missed a couple weeks in camp with a calf issue. If he's durable, the Commanders can receive better production from this position, especially in the red zone. Bates serves as a good run blocker capable of the occasional catch. Turner should help in the pass game, but needs to be more stout at the point of catch. Curtis Hodges should be kept on the practice squad; he's athletic and can be developed but keeping Armah meant only going with three tight ends.

---

OFFENSIVE LINE (10): Charles Leno Jr., Saahdiq Charles, Nick Gates, Sam Cosmi, Andrew Wylie, Cornelius Lucas, Tyler Larsen, Chris Paul, Ricky Stromberg, Braeden Daniels

Washington's biggest question, a weakness in 2022, has new starters at four spots; Leno is the only returning starter at the same position. Cosmi shifted from tackle to right guard. The question will be: Can they be good enough to handle a strong group of defensive ends in the NFC East? The Commanders have only two backups with legitimate experience. Washington has not drafted an offensive lineman in the first round since 2015.

---

DEFENSIVE LINE (11): Montez Sweat, Jonathan Allen, Daron Payne, Chase Young, Efe Obada, John Ridgeway, Phidarian Mathis, Casey Toohill, James Smith-Williams, Andre Jones Jr., KJ Henry

The Commanders, led by Payne and Allen, have one of the best defensive lines in the NFL, though Sweat and Young must produce bigger sack totals this season. Washington could opt to keep 10 linemen, in which case one of the ends -- Smith-Williams, Toohill, Henry or Jones -- would be in jeopardy. But Jones, a seventh-round rookie, has flashed enough to warrant a spot. One of the veterans, Smith-Williams or Toohill, could be in trouble.

---

LINEBACKER (4): Jamin Davis, Cody Barton, David Mayo, Khaleke Hudson

Washington could keep five linebackers, but with the versatility it has in the defensive backfield it can get away with four and elevate one off the practice squad if needed. Davis has had a good summer, though he also will find out on Aug. 31 if he must serve jail time for a reckless driving charge. Milo Eifler and De'Jon Harris would be possibilities if they kept five, but one or both could be headed to the practice squad.

---

CORNERBACK (5): Benjamin St-Juste, Kendall Fuller, Emmanuel Forbes, Danny Johnson, Christian Holmes

 

Forbes and Fuller will play outside while St-Juste, who had a terrific summer, can play either spot. He'll play inside in their three-corner packages. Holmes is a terrific gunner on special teams. The Commanders could keep six here, but Rachad Wildgoose needed to show he could be more than a slot corner and he did not.

---

SAFETY (5): Kamren Curl, Darrick Forrest, Percy Butler, Jeremy Reaves, Jartavius Martin

They have versatility with this group. Martin, a rookie, can play slot corner as well. Washington loves to use three-safety sets with Curl as a hybrid linebacker/safety. Forrest continues to improve, while Reaves is a coming off an All-Pro season as a special teamer.

 

https://www.espn.com/nfl/insider/insider/story/_/id/38251606/washington-commanders-final-53-man-roster-projection-2023

[method man]

16 minutes ago, Going Commando said:

 

That'll screw pretty much any OL.  But if it happens, they'll move Sam or Saahdiq outside and play Paul or Stromberg.

Yep. Cosmi definitely moves outside if it happens. I am still holding out some hope that Jason Peters would want to come here. He must have had a tight relationship with Castillo to go to Chicago 

[Chris 44]

5 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

Keim

 

---

TIGHT END (3): Logan Thomas, John Bates, Cole Turner

Washington needs to be careful with Thomas, who missed a couple weeks in camp with a calf issue. If he's durable, the Commanders can receive better production from this position, especially in the red zone. Bates serves as a good run blocker capable of the occasional catch. Turner should help in the pass game, but needs to be more stout at the point of catch. Curtis Hodges should be kept on the practice squad; he's athletic and can be developed but keeping Armah meant only going with three tight ends.

---

 

---

 

 

https://www.espn.com/nfl/insider/insider/story/_/id/38251606/washington-commanders-final-53-man-roster-projection-2023

TE group scares me from a durability standpoint. Healthy, I think they may be considered "good", but I have a hard time seeing Thomas and Turner staying healthy for any length of time. Bates, though good in his current role, cannot fill the roles of Thomas or Turner.

[MartinC]

Let’s try to keep the roster and cuts conversation in the roster cuts thread.

[Skinsinparadise]

23 minutes ago, Chris 44 said:

TE group scares me from a durability standpoint. Healthy, I think they may be considered "good", but I have a hard time seeing Thomas and Turner staying healthy for any length of time. Bates, though good in his current role, cannot fill the roles of Thomas or Turner.

 

Forgot to mention in the Bram-Keim podcast, Keim mentioned he just talked to someone from the team the other day who was still lamenting the loss of Armani Rogers and what he would have meant to the offense.

 

I know some here like to goof back at those here who pushed hard for a TE in the draft -- in part by suggesting that us making a big deal about the loss of Armani Rogers is just us using him to unfairly ridicule the FO on the topic.   Suggesting that wasn't what the FO were truly thinking. 

 

But on the contrary.  The love and "what if" narrative about Armani Rogers comes from the beat guys who cover the team who have spoken to the staff there.  The Armani Rogers isn't a narrative made up by malcontent fans about them skipping TE in the draft.  The narrative is 100% about what the beat guys have heard from the team.  In short, its a real narrative not a made up one.  If people want to make fun of the narrative, that's cool.  But the ones to make fun of in that case is the team.

Edited August 28, 2023 by Skinsinparadise

[Going Commando]

1 hour ago, DWinzit said:

For all the negativity that has surrounded the move to bring in Gates, he has proven a strong leader vet as they hoped.

 

I think he started winning some fans over when he started that fight in the end zone against the Ravens.  Just a cheapshot fueled by pure aggression lol.  That's the kind of **** we want starting at center.

 

I liked Gates from the jump though.  He's athletically limited, but he's big and still recovers well because he plays smart and reacts well.  He had a reputation for being a good culture guy in NY, and I always felt he could be good for us in that way.  Our OL desperately needed some swagger.

 

The guy I owe an apology to is Saahdiq Charles.  He's still uneven in his technique, the hands and feet lost some effort over the course of the half, and his bad reps can look really panicky.  But I didn't realize how strong he was until this preseason.  I think he's the most naturally powerful OL on the team, but it's all very compact in him because he doesn't really look that big.  I thought it was kind of weird that he was the one the Ravens generally weren't rushing when they sent four.  Then towards the end of the half they did, and he snatched that DT down a couple of times in a row like it was nothing and I was like "damn."  He also had the best anchor on the line when they tried to bullrush him one on one.  That guy is as strong as an ox.

 

Charles is a lot better than I thought and he's noticeably better than Chris Paul.  Hopefully that guy can stay healthy, because if he does we've got a real talent at LG.

 

Also wanted to say that I liked the reps from Trent Scott backing up Wylie.  I don't know if there is a spot for him on the 53 man roster, but it might be worth rostering him to keep from having move Cosmi or Charles around in the event of OT injuries.

[DWinzit]

1 hour ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

don't recall much negativity about him.  for me it was just higher pedigreed centers were cheaper or around the same price.  I don't get the vibe from the beat guys that they have been blown away by Gates play.  But he brings a nastiniess to that unit.

The negative talks were mainly regarding the other OL available in FA that were of a higher quality and the concerns with his past mega injury. He has played well and does add the nastiness they spoke of looking for this year. The nastiness was emphasized when speaking of the draft prospects as well. 

[DWinzit]

2 minutes ago, Going Commando said:

 

I think he started winning some fans over when he started that fight in the end zone against the Ravens.  Just a cheapshot fueled by pure aggression lol.  That's the kind of **** we want starting at center.

 

I liked Gates from the jump though.  He's athletically limited, but he's big and still recovers well because he plays smart and reacts well.  He had a reputation for being a good culture guy in NY, and I always felt he could be good for us in that way.  Our OL desperately needed some swagger.

 

The guy I owe an apology to is Saahdiq Charles.  He's still uneven in his technique, the hands and feet lost some effort over the course of the half, and his bad reps can look really panicky.  But I didn't realize how strong he was until this preseason.  I think he's the most naturally powerful OL on the team, but it's all very compact in him because he doesn't really look that big.  I thought it was kind of weird that he was the one the Ravens generally weren't rushing when they sent four.  Then towards the end of the half they did, and he snatched that DT down a couple of times in a row like it was nothing and I was like "damn."  He also had the best anchor on the line when they tried to bullrush him one on one.  That guy is as strong as an ox.

 

Charles is a lot better than I thought and he's noticeably better than Chris Paul.  Hopefully that guy can stay healthy, because if he does we've got a real talent at LG.

 

Also wanted to say that I liked the reps from Trent Scott backing up Wylie.  I don't know if there is a spot for him on the 53 man roster, but it might be worth rostering him to keep from having move Cosmi or Charles around in the event of OT injuries.

Nice post, great positive talk related the the often bashed Charles (mainly for his lack of being healthy) and Scott. Both did have good preseasons and we never heard Scotts name.

 

Charles play has me looking at RT as the absolute weak link in the OL currently. I fail to have faith in Wylie out there. I saw someone, I think accidently spell his name Whylie and laughed, thinking ...how appropriate! 

 

Paul is the guy we all wanted to show up big time but couldn't pull it off. He still has that potential as he grows this season.

 

 

[Skinsinparadise]

6 minutes ago, DWinzit said:

The negative talks were mainly regarding the other OL available in FA that were of a higher quality and the concerns with his past mega injury. He has played well and does add the nastiness they spoke of looking for this year. The nastiness was emphasized when speaking of the draft prospects as well. 

 

I thought it was an OK signing.  I didn't trash it at the time.  The culture stuff was part of the narrative back then.  I don't think we are clearly out of the woods as for the injury.  I still don't think they got the best center they could within that budget but its not something I fretted about then or now much.  My main issue with FA was that there were some guards with pedigree who could have been had within the budget. 

 

The Gates signing IMO was OK, not a homerun signing considering context.  but will see.  He's definitely in the don't worry about him category based on camp reports unlike Wylie where there are concerns clearly bleeding into the season.  Will see.

 

 

 

Edited August 28, 2023 by Skinsinparadise

[DWinzit]

Yeah SIP, Steelers had a nice FA season with Seumalo and Holcomb being two of the big hits.

[Skinsinparadise]

As far as S. Charles, Paul, etc.  How good S. Charles will become or not, I got no idea.  He's been an inconsistent player and injury prone.  And I know from what's been said the FO feels the same way.  But they are hoping that changes.  One thing is as clear as bell the coaches think Charles >> Paul.

 

The one thing Keim keeps repeating is that they like Charles athleticsm more than Pauls.  They like his ability to block in space.  And see Paul as more of a power blocker.  That surprises me considering Paul's RAS. 

[KDawg]

Our OL will be better than they have looked but also be a constant question mark. That’s my thoughts on our line watching the little bit of them I have seen this preseason.

[formerly4skins]

2 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

CORNERBACK (5): Benjamin St-Juste, Kendall Fuller, Emmanuel Forbes, Danny Johnson, Christian Holmes

 

Forbes and Fuller will play outside while St-Juste, who had a terrific summer, can play either spot. He'll play inside in their three-corner packages. Holmes is a terrific gunner on special teams. The Commanders could keep six here, but Rachad Wildgoose needed to show he could be more than a slot corner and he did not.

I could totally be mistaken, but hasn't BSJ been used almost exclusively as a boundary corner here?

 

Am I just wrong...or, is BSJ as a slot-corner something new for this season?

[Skinsinparadise]

16 minutes ago, formerly4skins said:

I could totally be mistaken, but hasn't BSJ been used almost exclusively as a boundary corner here?

 

Am I just wrong...or, is BSJ as a slot-corner something new for this season?

 

He played some slot last year

[skinny21]

31 minutes ago, formerly4skins said:

I could totally be mistaken, but hasn't BSJ been used almost exclusively as a boundary corner here?

 

Am I just wrong...or, is BSJ as a slot-corner something new for this season?

The way I remember it -

When we acquired WJIII, they moved St Juste inside, which he played throughout offseason and first half of the season or so (I can’t remember how much time he missed during that span) and really liked him there.  Once he got hurt (and Jackson was benched), they tried different guys before landing on DJ outside and McCain in the slot.  His length, combined with a surprising short area quickness for his size, served him well there.

Edited August 28, 2023 by skinny21

[Skinsinparadise]

2 hours ago, KDawg said:

Our OL will be better than they have looked but also be a constant question mark. That’s my thoughts on our line watching the little bit of them I have seen this preseason.

 

If you had to predict the season record right now, what's your best guess?

[KDawg]

1 minute ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

If you had to predict the season record right now, what's your best guess?

I don't do records. Too many variables. A range? 5-12 floor, 11-6 ceiling.

 

The median is 8-9 for that prediction. 

[skinny21]

3 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

Forgot to mention in the Bram-Keim podcast, Keim mentioned he just talked to someone from the team the other day who was still lamenting the loss of Armani Rogers and what he would have meant to the offense.

 

I know some here like to goof back at those here who pushed hard for a TE in the draft -- in part by suggesting that us making a big deal about the loss of Armani Rogers is just us using him to unfairly ridicule the FO on the topic.   Suggesting that wasn't what the FO were truly thinking. 

 

But on the contrary.  The love and "what if" narrative about Armani Rogers comes from the beat guys who cover the team who have spoken to the staff there.  The Armani Rogers isn't a narrative made up by malcontent fans about them skipping TE in the draft.  The narrative is 100% about what the beat guys have heard from the team.  In short, it’s a real narrative not a made up one.  If people want to make fun of the narrative, that's cool.  But the ones to make fun of in that case is the team.

Generally speaking, I’m a big fan of taking advantage of positional depth in the draft, so I’d have been happy if they’d added a TE.  With that said, I wasn’t upset about it - they had 5 guys they really liked.  Injuries are a factor for sure, it’s a spot where attrition plays a role.  Looking back though, I don’t recall much negativity about not being 4 or 5 deep in the past (even when we had Mr. Injured himself, Jordan Reed).  So yeah, I get that they were bummed about losing Rogers (I was as well), but he was also probably going to be our #4 this year.  I didn’t agree with those that thought losing him was a non-issue.  I think we can withstand another long term injury - via using Armah as our #3, elevating Hodges (if he lands on the PS), or bringing in a FA.  Losing 2 more would be a big problem… but losing 3 of your top 4 TEs is a big blow for virtually every team IMO.