2023 Offseason Mini Camp, OTA’s, Training Camp Discussion Thread: Hallelujah, Josh Harris & Co. Era Edition

[zCommander]

@Conn I have been meaning to ask you if you don't mind and can update the thread title to (don't want to see Snyder's name on the title anymore): Hallelujah Josh Harris and Co. Era Edition

 

But, if majority don't want it changed that's okay too. I will just have to live with it lol 

[Skinsinparadise]

 

 

[SkinsGuy]

A thanks to all those who have brought tweets, info, pics, videos, and interviews from this year's training camp for those of us who cannot be there.

 

It is very much appreciated. 

 

Edited August 2, 2023 by SkinsGuy

[Chris 44]

2 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

Talking about?  I don't think its the wrong answer though.  Ron, you are betting on a young QB who needs to be protected to have a chance.  You said that statement yourself, Ron.  So explain it to me like I am a 2 year old, what you did to make that happen?

 

 

 

"So Ron, what can I do to help out with the roster?"

"Nothing boss, we all good"

"Heard the O line may be having a few issues?"

"No sir! We all good!"

Edited August 2, 2023 by Chris 44

[Skinsinparadise]

45 minutes ago, HigSkin said:

And out come the tennis ball drills to extend practice.  Interesting touch considering its EB's idea.

 

Can't post links from where I'm at but Nicki and Ben both have examples.

 

 

[Leonard Washington]

5 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

They’ve written an article everyday. I’ve posted some of them as have others 

I’ve seen those. Just seemed like there was more coverage in previous years, particularly in the Richmond camps. 

[NickyJ]

59 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

 

It's a positive sign, but just once, I'd love to see a negative sign. I'd kill to watch a rookie defensive player absolutely eviscerate a veteran teammate who he played with in college. Say that his ball placement is awful, his leadership is so bad he couldn't lead a dog to its food bowl.  "Dude reminds me of Daniel Jones so much it makes me want to throw up."

 

Actually, never mind on that last one. That's praise these days.

[Fan since a Fetus]

2 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

Talking about?  I don't think its the wrong answer though.  Ron, you are betting on a young QB who needs to be protected to have a chance.  You said that statement yourself, Ron.  So explain it to me like I am a 2 year old, what you did to make that happen?

 

 

 

Chris Paul really gained some weight since he’s been with the Suns. I really like that he plays two sports. He’s committed. 

[Skinsinparadise]

 

[D’Pablo]

3 hours ago, KDawg said:

“Can Embiid player center on the OL or is he only a basketball center kinda guy?”

I like his position flex

[88Comrade2000]

1 hour ago, Chris 44 said:

"So Ron, what can I do to help out with the roster?"

"Nothing boss, we all good"

"Heard the O line may be having a few issues?"

"No sir! We all good!"

And if the line fails and we lose; Ron will be headed into retirement.

[Voice_of_Reason]

Listened to Galdi this morning, and he had Warren Sharp on.  

 

Warren Sharp is very sharp, intelligent, and a good guest.  He does an enormous amount of research and has a lot of detail in everything he does, and is clearly on the cutting edge of "fan analytics."

 

In general, I like Warren Sharp, I think he puts together a lot of really interesting factoids that can lead to trends.  Most of what I like the most is stuff he does with in-game strategy stuff.  

 

However, for an analytics/number guy, what is really interesting is he has an enormous amount of "emotional bias" which he carries into his analysis.  

 

A lot of the stuff he said on his appearance today was really insightful, and a very good listen.

 

But the part that just had me shaking my head was when he was discussing Ron, and said (paraphrased) "he's a defensive coach so all he wants to do is run the ball and play defense.  His primary objective is to make the defense look good, (somewhat implied) even at the expense of winning games."

 

Then he went on to say that the Commanders ran the ball too much, and had the highest time of position of any team since 2019.  (Which I didn't know.) He also said their "points per minute" were the lowest in the league (I didn't even know this was a stat, so good on him for inventing it), or close to it, and then a number of other really cool time vs. point stats.

 

So, I appreciate all of the numbers/metrics.  But there is a bit of context which is missing:

 

The Commanders last season had absolutely HORRIFIC QB options, and the only way they could even have a chance at being competitive was to run, run, pray Wentz/Redacted could convert a 3rd down.  They HAD to play that way because it was basically the only way they COULD play.  You couldn't ask Redacted (who started the majority of the games last year) to throw the ball because he actively was terrible at it unless he got lucky and the back-judge knocked down a safety who was ready to pick off what ended up as a TD. So the context of "they have the worst QB situation basically in the entire league because they signed a washed-up Wentz and then had an XFL backup QB playing the majority of the games" seems to have been lost on Sharp.  

 

Sharp basically crucified Ron for being an idiot, old school, defense first moron of a head coach, and used an argument to do so which was fatally flawed when viewed through the lens of context.

 

Now, I'm not suggesting Ron has done a bang-up job the last 4 years, but if you're going to criticize somebody for something, looking at context and seeing they HAD to do what you are criticizing them for is probably a good thing to do.  

 

He did say something absolutely correct: The whole Ron Rivera Era has gone sideways at some point because there's no way the plan going into year 4 was to have a second year 5th round pick positioned as the starting QB.  Which is absolutely a true statement.  And I'll add, and a new offensive coordinator and new offense in year 4 was not the plan either.

 

Ron has made a whole lot of missteps along the way.  But even I who HATES running on first down acknowledges with Redacted at QB, you have no choice.  When your QB lacks the ability to throw a forward pass and complete it without an element of luck, there's not much you can do.

 

I personally think Ron's biggest mistake was signing Redacted to any contract after the Tampa playoff game.  Should have let him go back to his sister's couch, which is exactly where he belongs. 

[Skinsinparadise]

16 minutes ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

Listened to Galdi this morning, and he had Warren Sharp on.  

 

Warren Sharp is very sharp, intelligent, and a good guest.  He does an enormous amount of research and has a lot of detail in everything he does, and is clearly on the cutting edge of "fan analytics."

 

In general, I like Warren Sharp, I think he puts together a lot of really interesting factoids that can lead to trends.  Most of what I like the most is stuff he does with in-game strategy stuff.  

 

However, for an analytics/number guy, what is really interesting is he has an enormous amount of "emotional bias" which he carries into his analysis.  

 

A lot of the stuff he said on his appearance today was really insightful, and a very good listen.

 

But the part that just had me shaking my head was when he was discussing Ron, and said (paraphrased) "he's a defensive coach so all he wants to do is run the ball and play defense.  His primary objective is to make the defense look good, (somewhat implied) even at the expense of winning games."

 

 

Ron, good man, perfect coach for the 3 years of dysfunction under Dan.  I respect him a ton.

 

But as for year 4, Ron doubled down into the reputation that his critics have hammered him for years about.  It isn't new as to anayltics guys being critical of him. 

 

A.  Mayhew saying they'd like to run the ball like 2:1 or something ridiculous like that in a press conference this off season.  You take that along with Ron's comments over the years about the run game -- he has fostered that image.  It's not just about what they did but what they say including this off season.

 

B.  The Sharp anayltics types are obsessed with offense over defense.  Then we got Ron using his 5 out 7 of his 1st-2nd round picks on defense in his tenure.

 

C.  The comments from him about he studied the anayltics himself on Wentz makes him look foolish to that group because Wentz's anayltics were at best mixed.  And as Sam Fortier (WP) said along with another reporter who covers this team, they don't get the vibe that Rivera knows the difference between anayltics and just basic stats considering he tends to quote basic stats like YPC when he talks about the subject.

 

D.  The FO is populated with old school types.  Not popular choices with the hipster anayltic types

 

E.  Along with the Titans they have the smallest and least noteworthy anayltics staff in the league accoording to ESPN.

 

F.  They are all critical of the job he's done on the O line.  He passed over Andrew Thomas, C, Darrisaw among others who according to their metrics are elite players.  He took a LB in the first round which to the anayltics crowd is taboo and he wasn't vindicated for it.

 

I can go on and on why Ron wouldn't be hip to a dude like Sharp.  I don't always agree with Sharp.  But just saying Ron walks and talks like the opposite of a coach that Sharp, Football Outsiders and those groups would dig.

 

 

Edited August 2, 2023 by Skinsinparadise

[Voice_of_Reason]

1 minute ago, Skinsinparadise said:

I can go on and on why Ron wouldn't be hip to a dude like Sharp.  I don't always agree with Sharp.  But just saying Ron walks and talks like the opposite of a coach that Sharp, Football Outsiders and those groups would dig.

That's fair, but it doesn't make any of them right.

 

And I'm kindof out on Ron, and I was a fan.  Though I'm probably more balanced than some folks because I absolutely concede what he had to deal with in terms of the Snyder effect was greater than anything any of us will ever really know.  

 

I just think criticizing the game planning last year as "his philosophy" is foolish given who they had playing QB.  Given a better QB, I bet the mix changes.  Hopefully we see that this year.

 

And I get he and Mahew said they wanted to run the ball twice as much as they throw it.  That was a massively stupid thing to say.  (And it was Mahew who said it) I think Ron just says stuff to say it at times.  

 

I really don't care about it one way or the other.  80% of what Sharp said was pretty good.  

 

But these analytic guys are NOT all numbers.  They are biased as well.  And that was absolutely evident in the interview.  

[Skinsinparadise]

13 minutes ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

That's fair, but it doesn't make any of them right.

 

 

Not sure if its right or not.  But Ron's own rhetoric and actions make it easy to make that case.

 

13 minutes ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

 

 

And I'm kindof out on Ron, and I was a fan.  Though I'm probably more balanced than some folks because I absolutely concede what he had to deal with in terms of the Snyder effect was greater than anything any of us will ever really know.  

 

 

I'd put my record of saying Dan makes everything harder rhetoric against anyone here including you.  So I think I got plenty of credibilty on the subject.  That dude who isn't here anymore who ripped Ron constantly absolutely hated me because I pushed back on him all the time.   I posted a ton defending Ron.

 

In fact its my hatred for Dan and wanting to get this fan base back to what it was -- seeing this as such a golden opportunity is what made me turn against Ron. The fact that I defended his off seasons from the context of hey he's building something be patient -- is the other reason I turned against him because in my mind he didn't push things any differently this off season compared to any others.  And it surprised me.   I was on the record of just wait until off seaon 4, Ron will push the gas then.  i was wrong about that.  That's the one point I'd concede to that Ron critic.

 

13 minutes ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

 

But these analytic guys are NOT all numbers.  They are biased as well.  And that was absolutely evident in the interview.  

 

Of course.  Every talking head has a bias.  But biases' are often driven by an aggregate picture you have of the subject.  If you like the subject (in this case meaning like their competence), you'd more likely give the benefit of the doubt and spin things in favor of.  If you don't like the subject, you don't give them the benefit of the doubt and spin against.

 

The reason for example why the Giants and Joe Schoen get so much love from those guys and the national media is he walks and talks just like them.  Youngish-hip style in how he goes about things.  Rivera is the opposite.  He's very old school.  His rhetoric is old school.  His actions are old school.  He's not going to get the benefit of the doubt from that group.

Edited August 2, 2023 by Skinsinparadise

[Conn]

2 hours ago, zCommander said:

@Conn I have been meaning to ask you if you don't mind and can update the thread title to (don't want to see Snyder's name on the title anymore): Hallelujah Josh Harris and Co. Era Edition

 

But, if majority don't want it changed that's okay too. I will just have to live with it lol 

On it, good call

[zCommander]

9 minutes ago, Conn said:

On it, good call

 

[Conn]

If Rivera & Co. need the practices against the Ravens and the preseason to see what’s obvious to everybody else about the OL, that’s another ding against their self-scouting/problem-solving record. 
 

 

2 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

 

Love this. Prime Alvin Kamara did this religiously 

[philibusters]

1 hour ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

 

 

But the part that just had me shaking my head was when he was discussing Ron, and said (paraphrased) "he's a defensive coach so all he wants to do is run the ball and play defense.  His primary objective is to make the defense look good, (somewhat implied) even at the expense of winning games."

 

 

 

I don't think Scott Turner had as much discretion as Bieniemy but I do feel he was the primary author of the gameplan and then almost exclusively responsible for the playcalls during the game.  I think Rivera has always been somewhat hands off on the offense. 

[LetMeSeeYourWarFace21]

4 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

Talking about?  I don't think its the wrong answer though.  Ron, you are betting on a young QB who needs to be protected to have a chance.  You said that statement yourself, Ron.  So explain it to me like I am a 2 year old, what you did to make that happen?

 

 

 

 

Josh: Who is that rapping on the song that's playing? Is that 21 Savage?

 

Ron: Not sure, it could be Gucci Mane. I'm more of a fan of Young Jeezy & Nicki Minaj myself.

 

Josh: Hmmm.....I've been thinking, how do you think the guys will respond if I brought in some of my Beach Boys records? Or if I play my Bluegrass playlist? Mix it up a little. 

[Conn]

1 hour ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

Listened to Galdi this morning, and he had Warren Sharp on.  

 

Warren Sharp is very sharp, intelligent, and a good guest.  He does an enormous amount of research and has a lot of detail in everything he does, and is clearly on the cutting edge of "fan analytics."

 

In general, I like Warren Sharp, I think he puts together a lot of really interesting factoids that can lead to trends.  Most of what I like the most is stuff he does with in-game strategy stuff.  

 

However, for an analytics/number guy, what is really interesting is he has an enormous amount of "emotional bias" which he carries into his analysis.  

 

A lot of the stuff he said on his appearance today was really insightful, and a very good listen.

 

But the part that just had me shaking my head was when he was discussing Ron, and said (paraphrased) "he's a defensive coach so all he wants to do is run the ball and play defense.  His primary objective is to make the defense look good, (somewhat implied) even at the expense of winning games."

 

Then he went on to say that the Commanders ran the ball too much, and had the highest time of position of any team since 2019.  (Which I didn't know.) He also said their "points per minute" were the lowest in the league (I didn't even know this was a stat, so good on him for inventing it), or close to it, and then a number of other really cool time vs. point stats.

 

So, I appreciate all of the numbers/metrics.  But there is a bit of context which is missing:

 

The Commanders last season had absolutely HORRIFIC QB options, and the only way they could even have a chance at being competitive was to run, run, pray Wentz/Redacted could convert a 3rd down.  They HAD to play that way because it was basically the only way they COULD play.  You couldn't ask Redacted (who started the majority of the games last year) to throw the ball because he actively was terrible at it unless he got lucky and the back-judge knocked down a safety who was ready to pick off what ended up as a TD. So the context of "they have the worst QB situation basically in the entire league because they signed a washed-up Wentz and then had an XFL backup QB playing the majority of the games" seems to have been lost on Sharp.  

 

Sharp basically crucified Ron for being an idiot, old school, defense first moron of a head coach, and used an argument to do so which was fatally flawed when viewed through the lens of context.

 

Now, I'm not suggesting Ron has done a bang-up job the last 4 years, but if you're going to criticize somebody for something, looking at context and seeing they HAD to do what you are criticizing them for is probably a good thing to do.  

 

He did say something absolutely correct: The whole Ron Rivera Era has gone sideways at some point because there's no way the plan going into year 4 was to have a second year 5th round pick positioned as the starting QB.  Which is absolutely a true statement.  And I'll add, and a new offensive coordinator and new offense in year 4 was not the plan either.

 

Ron has made a whole lot of missteps along the way.  But even I who HATES running on first down acknowledges with Redacted at QB, you have no choice.  When your QB lacks the ability to throw a forward pass and complete it without an element of luck, there's not much you can do.

 

I personally think Ron's biggest mistake was signing Redacted to any contract after the Tampa playoff game.  Should have let him go back to his sister's couch, which is exactly where he belongs. 

 

Sharp is well aware of this, he’s done pretty extensive research on the ways bad teams can lean into increased variance against better teams in order to steal wins. Most of those ways boil down to the stuff you’re talking about, basically playing horridly boring, inefficient but clock-draining offense and hoping the defense is good enough—shortening games by running as much as possible, etc. It’s not a playoff formula but it’s a way that bad teams can fake competence and in the right circumstances, use variance to steal games. So he knows. He might not have said it out loud (though you allude to it at the end of your post so maybe he did) but he’s probably baking in the fact that the horrible QB situation that lends “context” to the way the team has had to play is his own fault (with a side of “Snyder’s fault too”). It’s his roster, his QB’s, his poor OL, his responsibility. 
 

So maybe characterizing it as the way Rivera “wants the team to play” was skewed, and he should have instead said “the way Rivera’s roster building decisions have cornered this team into having to play”. 
 

In the end it’s all the same. 
 

Edit: and I agree that the emotion comes from an aggregate of tons of data points, so even if some of the data points are skewed, the overall point can still hold. Rivera is about the least analytics-friendly coach there is despite his dumb nickname. 

Edited August 2, 2023 by Conn

[Skinsinparadise]

19 minutes ago, Conn said:

 

Sharp is well aware of this, he’s done pretty extensive research on the ways bad teams can lean into increased variance against better teams in order to steal wins. Most of those ways boil down to the stuff you’re talking about, basically playing horridly boring, inefficient but clock-draining offense and hoping the defense is good enough—shortening games by running as much as possible, etc. It’s not a playoff formula but it’s a way that bad teams can fake competence and in the right circumstances, use variance to steal games. So he knows. He might not have said it out loud (though you allude to it at the end of your post so maybe he did) but he’s probably baking in the fact that the horrible QB situation that lends “context” to the way the team has had to play is his own fault (with a side of “Snyder’s fault too”). It’s his roster, his QB’s, his poor OL, his responsibility. 
 

So maybe characterizing it as the way Rivera “wants the team to play” was skewed, and he should have instead said “the way Rivera’s roster building decisions have cornered this team into having to play”. 
 

In the end it’s all the same. 

 

Good point about Sharp not giving Ron a pass for circumstances of his own making.  Sharp was critical of Rivera for example not kicking the tires on Lamar Jackson this off season.  Sharp was VERY critical of the Wentz trade, I recall those videos he made ridiculing it.  Using high picks on defense mostly.  Skipping on Herbert, Tua.  Trading major capital for Wentz, etc.  Rivera is kind of the opposite of Sharp's cup of tea. 

 

Sam Fortier, youngish reporter from the WP shared that when he's seen Rivera talk about "anayltics", its been really just citing basic stats -- yards, YPA, etc.  He flat out said he doesn't think Rivera knows really what anayltics mean.  He thinks Rivera comes off like he thinks analytics just means numbers, any numbers.  Some other beat guy (forgetting whom) said something similar about Ron.

 

Then you got Ron or his staff with commments about running the ball 2:1.  Ron saying he didn't know they were eliminated from the playoffs last year.   Ron being defiant that he studied the anayltics himself on Wentz -- even though to Sharp Wentz's anayltics were bad.    Sharp said he thought 2 years ago the O line was fools gold because the pressure numbers were very high in obvious passing downs and the O line since has just gotten worse.   

 

They are tied for the small anayltics staff in the league.    He doesn't like how they call games on offense.  Sharp has him ranked as the 2nd to worst NFL coach among the returning coaches.

 

Ron is a good dude.  But if the idea is he's being misrepresented as an old school coach by the hipster anayltics types -- I don't have any sympathy for him because he walks right into the exact image they paint him.

 

lol, everytime I get into the topic, it registers to me that almost no chance Ron is back unless they win a playoff game.  Because while I'd bet Harris appreciates Ron's character and personality, he's so the opposite of the profile both FO and coaching wise that he's preferred in his other venues.  

Edited August 2, 2023 by Skinsinparadise

[philibusters]

5 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

 

Sam Fortier, youngish reporter from the WP shared that when he's seen Rivera talk about "anayltics", its been really just citing basic stats -- yards, YPA, etc.  He flat out said he doesn't think Rivera knows really what anayltics mean.  He thinks Rivera comes off like he thinks analytics just means numbers, any numbers.  Some other beat guy (forgetting whom) said something similar about Ron.

 

 

To a certain extent analytics are just stats.   But they are stats that try to factor in context and be more predictive of the future than simple stats.   For example a relative simple stat for QB's is passer rating whereas a popular one in analytics is EPA per drop back which accounts for things like sacks and down and distance and field position.  For example, in EPA, usually completing a 7 yard pass on 3rd and 6th is worth more than completing a 12 yard pass on 3rd and 20 (there may be exceptions to that like if it changed from a 61 to 49 yard fg that 12 yard completion might be worth say 1.5 points whereas getting a first down on 3rd and 6th when you are own 15 might only be worth .7 points are something like that)

Edited August 2, 2023 by philibusters

[Thinking Skins]

1 hour ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

Listened to Galdi this morning, and he had Warren Sharp on.  

 

Warren Sharp is very sharp, intelligent, and a good guest.  He does an enormous amount of research and has a lot of detail in everything he does, and is clearly on the cutting edge of "fan analytics."

 

In general, I like Warren Sharp, I think he puts together a lot of really interesting factoids that can lead to trends.  Most of what I like the most is stuff he does with in-game strategy stuff.  

 

However, for an analytics/number guy, what is really interesting is he has an enormous amount of "emotional bias" which he carries into his analysis.  

 

A lot of the stuff he said on his appearance today was really insightful, and a very good listen.

 

But the part that just had me shaking my head was when he was discussing Ron, and said (paraphrased) "he's a defensive coach so all he wants to do is run the ball and play defense.  His primary objective is to make the defense look good, (somewhat implied) even at the expense of winning games."

 

Then he went on to say that the Commanders ran the ball too much, and had the highest time of position of any team since 2019.  (Which I didn't know.) He also said their "points per minute" were the lowest in the league (I didn't even know this was a stat, so good on him for inventing it), or close to it, and then a number of other really cool time vs. point stats.

 

So, I appreciate all of the numbers/metrics.  But there is a bit of context which is missing:

 

The Commanders last season had absolutely HORRIFIC QB options, and the only way they could even have a chance at being competitive was to run, run, pray Wentz/Redacted could convert a 3rd down.  They HAD to play that way because it was basically the only way they COULD play.  You couldn't ask Redacted (who started the majority of the games last year) to throw the ball because he actively was terrible at it unless he got lucky and the back-judge knocked down a safety who was ready to pick off what ended up as a TD. So the context of "they have the worst QB situation basically in the entire league because they signed a washed-up Wentz and then had an XFL backup QB playing the majority of the games" seems to have been lost on Sharp.  

 

Sharp basically crucified Ron for being an idiot, old school, defense first moron of a head coach, and used an argument to do so which was fatally flawed when viewed through the lens of context.

 

Now, I'm not suggesting Ron has done a bang-up job the last 4 years, but if you're going to criticize somebody for something, looking at context and seeing they HAD to do what you are criticizing them for is probably a good thing to do.  

 

He did say something absolutely correct: The whole Ron Rivera Era has gone sideways at some point because there's no way the plan going into year 4 was to have a second year 5th round pick positioned as the starting QB.  Which is absolutely a true statement.  And I'll add, and a new offensive coordinator and new offense in year 4 was not the plan either.

 

Ron has made a whole lot of missteps along the way.  But even I who HATES running on first down acknowledges with Redacted at QB, you have no choice.  When your QB lacks the ability to throw a forward pass and complete it without an element of luck, there's not much you can do.

 

I personally think Ron's biggest mistake was signing Redacted to any contract after the Tampa playoff game.  Should have let him go back to his sister's couch, which is exactly where he belongs. 

I liked that and I kinda just dismissed his criticism because like I was saying about some of the AV stuff earlier, it lacked context. It talked about Ron being a defensive oriented coach, I think Galdi mentioned how Sharp had us 20 or worse in all offensive categories and thought that was bad (WRs and RBS should be higher) but didn't argue when Sharp said it was dependent on the QB and OC. That said, its just a bunch of information and insight and if Howell lights it up this will be worthless and if Howell is a bum this will prove true. 

[bowhunter]

7 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

Ron is a good dude.  But if the idea is he's being misrepresented as an old school coach by the hipster anayltics types -- I don't have any sympathy for him because he walks right into the exact image they paint him.

This is where it gets hard to separate Ron the roster GM from Ron the coach. We really don't know what RR the Coach would be like if he had a good O-line and a QB.

Perhaps he would turn the passing game WFO if it seemed unstoppable. I'm not opposed to keeping RR the coach if he finds a way to win with the roster at hand, but I'm perfectly fine with removing him from roster building decisions down the road. Every victory this year is much more of a testament to coaching than it is having the best team on the field.